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Thread: New Member and new 1886 45-90 help

  1. #101
    One other thought though. Previously, it was stated that I need to get all the lead out of the barrel when removing it. Is that referring to every little bit that I can see when using a borescope?

    There is a very very small amount that might be left in the corners of the grooves in places because it won't come out, even with 20 passes of a brush with copper chore boy and bronze wool wrapped on it. The amount that is left wouldn't make me think it would cause a problem on the next go. When it deposits in the bore during shooting it is in the grooves and on the lands.... Not just buildup from the corners

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighUintas View Post
    One other thought though. Previously, it was stated that I need to get all the lead out of the barrel when removing it. Is that referring to every little bit that I can see when using a borescope?

    There is a very very small amount that might be left in the corners of the grooves in places because it won't come out, even with 20 passes of a brush with copper chore boy and bronze wool wrapped on it. The amount that is left wouldn't make me think it would cause a problem on the next go. When it deposits in the bore during shooting it is in the grooves and on the lands.... Not just buildup from the corners
    Yes that was me said that - on the rare occasion I have leaded a barrel I would not shoot it again until I had it squeaky clean (whatever that took!) In a good smooth barrel I think a good tight flannel patch does as good as anything and it will show tiny shiny flakes of lead until its clean. I reckon at this point I would get it 100% clean and then shoot again you might have your ammo sorted. This whole deal has me puzzled.

  3. #103
    Well, I had to go out and shoot today after work for some stress relief. I wasn't able to do any more scrubbing on the bore to get the teensy bit of lead that was left (if it was lead) before going.

    These rounds were 457193, 4gr 4227, 68gr 2F, a single 0.025 hdpe wad, compressed probably ballpark 0.25". Virgin brass, so the neck tension is what it would be with my 0.456 expander on the 0.460 boolit.

    One thing to note on my virgin brass, is that I also chamfer the case mouth lightly. Not sure if that matters.

    I think today may either provide an answer, or more questions.

    The accuracy was better than last time. I had about 5 shots in 1.5" at 50 yards. The burn was a little more dirty... I looked down the bore every few shots and there was now leftover powder fouling, where I wasn't seeing any with 7gr 4227 and 65gr 2F. I wiped the bore every 5 shots or so to try to keep the fouling from throwing things off. Still saw lead on the patches.

    Got home and cleaned the bore. There was about the same amount of leading as last time, throughout the barrel and not in any particular location. Lands, grooves, etc. I noticed with my borescope that there was a very scary looking deposit of lead all the way around the end of the chamber, right on the transition from chamber to leade. So, I think something is happening either with my loading (brass/lead interaction) or the size of this boolit (0.460) is possibly slightly too large for the leade and is collecting lead on the edge of the chamber mouth? I didn't notice this before... i can't remember if I inspected the chamber last time I cleaned it, but I don't think I did. Is it possible this stuff is actually HDPE from my wad?

    It's kind of hard to tell, but it looked like lead to me when looking at it on my screen. Those white strings are from my patches.
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    Here's a picture with a fired case in the chamber after cleaning the lead out.
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    The other part is, I think I've got some rust spots starting in my bore... which really bugs me. I clean it within thirty minutes of finishing shooting. Water with a drop of soap in it on patches till they're clean. Then to remove the lead, I use a brush with some bronze wool and copper chore boy wrapped on it. After 15 passes, I'll wipe the bore out with a couple of wet patches, then a couple of dry patches, then oil it. So how am I getting rust? Does it look like the start of rust to you guys? After seeing this, I put a couple patches of sharp shootr tactical advantage (a copper and carbon cleaner) down the bore and my patches were bright rusty orange. Do I need to completely remove those spots with something? I've never dealt with rust in a bore... Anyway, I got some ballistol to clean it with the oil/water mix next time.

    First picture is before using the cleaner. There were quite a few areas that looked a lot worse than this. Second picture is after cleaning. White splotches showed up after wiping out the cleaner with hoppes and drypatching.
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    This is making me feel like i've never shot a gun before haha

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighUintas View Post
    Well, I had to go out and shoot today after work for some stress relief. I wasn't able to do any more scrubbing on the bore to get the teensy bit of lead that was left (if it was lead) before going.

    These rounds were 457193, 4gr 4227, 68gr 2F, a single 0.025 hdpe wad, compressed probably ballpark 0.25". Virgin brass, so the neck tension is what it would be with my 0.456 expander on the 0.460 boolit.

    One thing to note on my virgin brass, is that I also chamfer the case mouth lightly. Not sure if that matters.

    I think today may either provide an answer, or more questions.

    The accuracy was better than last time. I had about 5 shots in 1.5" at 50 yards. The burn was a little more dirty... I looked down the bore every few shots and there was now leftover powder fouling, where I wasn't seeing any with 7gr 4227 and 65gr 2F. I wiped the bore every 5 shots or so to try to keep the fouling from throwing things off. Still saw lead on the patches.

    Got home and cleaned the bore. There was about the same amount of leading as last time, throughout the barrel and not in any particular location. Lands, grooves, etc. I noticed with my borescope that there was a very scary looking deposit of lead all the way around the end of the chamber, right on the transition from chamber to leade. So, I think something is happening either with my loading (brass/lead interaction) or the size of this boolit (0.460) is possibly slightly too large for the leade and is collecting lead on the edge of the chamber mouth? I didn't notice this before... i can't remember if I inspected the chamber last time I cleaned it, but I don't think I did. Is it possible this stuff is actually HDPE from my wad?

    It's kind of hard to tell, but it looked like lead to me when looking at it on my screen. Those white strings are from my patches.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Here's a picture with a fired case in the chamber after cleaning the lead out.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The other part is, I think I've got some rust spots starting in my bore... which really bugs me. I clean it within thirty minutes of finishing shooting. Water with a drop of soap in it on patches till they're clean. Then to remove the lead, I use a brush with some bronze wool and copper chore boy wrapped on it. After 15 passes, I'll wipe the bore out with a couple of wet patches, then a couple of dry patches, then oil it. So how am I getting rust? Does it look like the start of rust to you guys? After seeing this, I put a couple patches of sharp shootr tactical advantage (a copper and carbon cleaner) down the bore and my patches were bright rusty orange. Do I need to completely remove those spots with something? I've never dealt with rust in a bore... Anyway, I got some ballistol to clean it with the oil/water mix next time.

    First picture is before using the cleaner. There were quite a few areas that looked a lot worse than this. Second picture is after cleaning. White splotches showed up after wiping out the cleaner with hoppes and drypatching.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is making me feel like i've never shot a gun before haha
    Could be my eyes, could be reflections, maybe Im dreaming, have never taken pictures with a bore scope, but to me those pictures look like the bore surface is rough - little transverse marks like chatter marks across the rifling ? Whats it FEEL like after you cleaned it and put a tight flannel patch down it - compared to your other rifle?

    I have a Uberti with Pedersoli barrel - they lap those in the factory - also have a Chiappa - good bore - it doesnt lead but I can feel the difference with a tight patch.
    This is a Miruko / winchester? I have a Miruko/Browning, external fit and finish on my rifle was first class but attention to detail on the inside was second rate. Maybe ........?

    If this was mine I would be over it by now - with the loads you are using it should not be doing it - I would be going after it with steel wool and brasso to give it some shine - I use a brass bristle brush with fine steel wool wrapped around it and keep it as tight as I can jam in there - every few minutes wrap a touch more steel wool around to keep it tight, dunk the thing in Brasso and go for it - full strokes of the rifling with a muzzle protector on the rod - half an hour should do it - I'd want the gun upside down in a cleaning cradle to do it and finish up with jewellers rough on a damp, tight patch. All of which is a bit radical - its a pretty gun - I have done several and never damaged one

    I be interested to see what others think about your bore pics.

  5. #105
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    Howdy,
    Man you've put in an effort!!!
    Have you contacted Winchester? I'm sure they'd be interested in seeing your results. That barrel looks less than stellar to my unprofessional eye, and you should have had that thing shooting the lights out by now!
    I have an 1895 miruko that was less than perfect when I got it, contacted Winchester - had a new barrel put on in less than 2 weeks.

    Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

  6. #106
    Yes those horizontal marks are chatter marks, I think. They seem to be about average from other pictures I've seen of Browning and Winchester bores. You think I ought to call them on it?

    I was saving "lapping" it as a last resort. I've done it before with a savage and marroon colored 3m pads and finished it off with JB's. Worked ok.

    If you saw the slug measurements I had here, disregard those. The pictures are from the first attempt which used a ball and didn't work. I then slugged the muzzle with a .460 bullet and it measured 0.4565-0.457. Then I pushed another bullet through the whole bore from the chamber and got 0.4565-0.457.
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    Last edited by HighUintas; Yesterday at 03:59 AM.

  7. #107
    Oh yes... How does it feel when running a patch down?

    After I clean it and remove the lead, it feels pretty smooth. It doesn't feel like there's rough spots in there. It feels MUCH better than those pictures look

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwtebay View Post
    Howdy,
    Man you've put in an effort!!!
    Have you contacted Winchester? I'm sure they'd be interested in seeing your results. That barrel looks less than stellar to my unprofessional eye, and you should have had that thing shooting the lights out by now!
    I have an 1895 miruko that was less than perfect when I got it, contacted Winchester - had a new barrel put on in less than 2 weeks.

    Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
    So its not just me then?

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighUintas View Post
    Yes those horizontal marks are chatter marks, I think. They seem to be about average from other pictures I've seen of Browning and Winchester bores. You think I ought to call them on it?

    I was saving "lapping" it as a last resort. I've done it before with a savage and marroon colored 3m pads and finished it off with JB's. Worked ok.

    If you saw the slug measurements I had here, disregard those. The pictures are from the first attempt which used a ball and didn't work. I then slugged the muzzle with a .460 bullet and it measured 0.4565-0.457. Then I pushed another bullet through the whole bore from the chamber and got 0.4565-0.457.
    Where I am - back to the dealer or factory would be just too hard - could take a year - might never see the gun again - you probably already two or three hundred under current new price - If you feel comfortable doing it yourself ? thats what I would do - otherwise maybe one of the good barrel men (Hoyt etc - not a recommendation just heard his name hereabouts) might do it for you.?

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    Where I am - back to the dealer or factory would be just too hard - could take a year - might never see the gun again - you probably already two or three hundred under current new price - If you feel comfortable doing it yourself ? thats what I would do - otherwise maybe one of the good barrel men (Hoyt etc - not a recommendation just heard his name hereabouts) might do it for you.?
    I definitely don't want to sell it. I've gotten myself attached to it and I think my wife would kill me!


    I'm in Utah and their HQ is about 45 minutes from my house, so I could potentially just drive over there to talk to them in hopes it would expedite the process if they did do something about it.

    I just can't see them replacing the barrel :/ worth a try though.

    I do have some wiggle room on bore dimensions too. I could get on it with some 3m pads and JB's and that would make quick work of it.

    I ended up selling the savage I did that to anyway because the muzzle had some type of impurity inclusion in the steel and there were monstrous pits after just a hundred rounds.

    I'll have to think on it

  11. #111
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    Pick up a couple hundred j- words and shoot the all. Smooth that bore out and then start shooting your cast. This is a massed produced barrel not a custom. Those marks are we nothing more than peaks and valleys. You need to knock those peaks off. A bit of fowling is good as it fills those voids and allows for a seasoned bore. Just my opinion. I'm sure many will disagree.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by hithard View Post
    Pick up a couple hundred j- words and shoot the all. Smooth that bore out and then start shooting your cast. This is a massed produced barrel not a custom. Those marks are we nothing more than peaks and valleys. You need to knock those peaks off. A bit of fowling is good as it fills those voids and allows for a seasoned bore. Just my opinion. I'm sure many will disagree.
    Are saying a bit of lead fouling is good? I was under the impression that lead in the bore is not the same as copper, where some copper fouling can help accuracy because it will fill in small imperfections, but lead is soft enough it will just continue to build up rapidly and hurt accuracy.

    Either way, I did have some good accuracy with a couple of the loads. So I'm not horribly worried about it. I just don't want to have to get the copper scrubby out for the bore every 10 rounds!

    My end goal here is to be able to get it to 2" groups at 100 yards and not have to use the copper scrubby to remove lead but maybe every 60 rounds or so.

  13. #113
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    I have been shooting Pyrodex since 1977. If you clean your gun, you will not get rust. Hodgdon has given up trying to convince folks that Pyrodex residue or powder is NOT any more "corrosive" than black powder. They have flat quit because these fairy tales keep getting passed as gospel. I even wrote articles about it. Gave up.
    Bottom line is:

    1. Pyrodex + Water based cleaning + Light oil = No Corrosion
    2. Black Powder + Water based cleaning + Light oil = No Corrosion

    Either Pyrodex or Black Powder cleaned with "Goober Miracle Goop" and poor oiling = CORROSION

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Tar Heel View Post
    I have been shooting Pyrodex since 1977. If you clean your gun, you will not get rust. Hodgdon has given up trying to convince folks that Pyrodex residue or powder is NOT any more "corrosive" than black powder. They have flat quit because these fairy tales keep getting passed as gospel. I even wrote articles about it. Gave up.
    Bottom line is:

    1. Pyrodex + Water based cleaning + Light oil = No Corrosion
    2. Black Powder + Water based cleaning + Light oil = No Corrosion

    Either Pyrodex or Black Powder cleaned with "Goober Miracle Goop" and poor oiling = CORROSION
    Ok. This isn't really about the rusting and I'm not trying to blame that on BP or Winchester or anything. I'm not too worried about it.

    I know how to clean and oil a gun... I was just really surprised to see that considering how we'll I've been cleaning it.

    After thinking about it a bit, I'm pretty darn sure it's from a galvanic reaction between the bore and leftover bits of bronze wool I was using to get the lead out. That stuff turns to dust and it's really hard to get it all out of there.

  15. #115
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    This is directed to anyone other than HighUintas...

    I like that HighUintas is not put off.
    A bore scope, like a Hawkeye can (most often) make the very best of barrels look scary. After looking at a lot of barrels, the one in question looks about normal to even good for a production barrel. The one Miroku barrel I have is about the same and shoots way above expectation. I would give it a chance.

    Hey, HighUnitas, your on track to putting the whole BP making/shooting/45-90 1886 project together. I am impressed.

    You inspired me to load up 10 cartridges in an attempt to make a load somewhat like yours, but in a 45-70 Govt. Winchester 1886 built in about 1893. Barrel sights - 50 meters.
    Bullets from the same batch, Lyman 457 193, 62 grains 2F powder, 4 grains Sr-4759, Winchester LRP, Winchester cases.

    5 shots in a group. The left one and the high one are on me. Rain and the front edge of the thunder storm was rolling in and I did not do my best work here before scrambling to get everything under cover. Still, fun stuff! The snow is melting and just now we can start to get into the high country.
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    Chill Wills

  16. #116
    Thanks for the reassurance CW.

    I'll have to get more pictures of my bore on here. It's not that bad.

    Right now my biggest worry is getting my dang breech bolt pin back into the lever. The pin is insanely tight fitting.

    I dig that target!

  17. #117
    I'm late to the party here. Slug the bore and go .001 over the slug. Use a lead 20-1 projectile that carries alot of lube, (SPG or DGL) probably about 350gr bullet, the 330 gould is a good one. Your 4227 "kicker" may be the culprit by sending the slug too fast into the riffling.
    You aren't ever going to get 2" groups consistently from that gun. Probably more like 3-4" is average for a lever gun @ 100yds. I don't know how many shots you're counting for your groups, but the first three ought to be 2-2.5" and then it's going to open up because of the fouling. No way around that unless you wipe between every shot or use a blow tube. I'd run some jacketed bullets through it with smokeless powder to see how it shoots. Bore scopes do more harm than good in my opinion, all they do is freak people out. You can get some pretty rotten bores to shoot if you do everything right.
    I didn't read all 6 pages of this , so much of what I just typed may have been covered.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chill Wills View Post
    This is directed to anyone other than HighUintas...

    I like that HighUintas is not put off.
    A bore scope, like a Hawkeye can (most often) make the very best of barrels look scary. After looking at a lot of barrels, the one in question looks about normal to even good for a production barrel. The one Miroku barrel I have is about the same and shoots way above expectation. I would give it a chance.

    Hey, HighUnitas, your on track to putting the whole BP making/shooting/45-90 1886 project together. I am impressed.

    You inspired me to load up 10 cartridges in an attempt to make a load somewhat like yours, but in a 45-70 Govt. Winchester 1886 built in about 1893. Barrel sights - 50 meters.
    Bullets from the same batch, Lyman 457 193, 62 grains 2F powder, 4 grains Sr-4759, Winchester LRP, Winchester cases.

    5 shots in a group. The left one and the high one are on me. Rain and the front edge of the thunder storm was rolling in and I did not do my best work here before scrambling to get everything under cover. Still, fun stuff! The snow is melting and just now we can start to get into the high country.
    Good post! I am impressed with his progress too - your shooting also -- and I reckon that high one is more likely the gun warming up than your fault - I think I have a crack with my Chiappa tomorrow for fun.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check