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Thread: New Member and new 1886 45-90 help

  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    I reckon your boolits are too skinny and you are getting gas cutting causing the leading
    my sized boolits are .4605 and I can shoot unsized (.462?) quite ok - load is blackpowder and a 45 thou HDPE (High Density Poly Ethylene) overpowder wad - those are 462 diameter so they are a neat squeeze fit so they seal .

    I shoot straight blackpowder in my '76 45/75 and a Duplex (7grain 4227 + blackpowder) in my '86 45/70
    dont have leading problem with either rifle unless I start messing with boolits that dont have enough lube to start with

    Attachment 282146
    Yea I think I might have to try slugging my barrel. Hopefully it's not the size causing it. 459 is much more common for bullet availability.

    I may try slugging it by driving a soft lead ball through the bore. Would the throat or muzzle be more important to do?

  2. #82
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    Hmmm
    I can only guess from where I sit.
    With BP as the fuel the .458 bullets should expand and seal, but you never know and you are getting leading from something?????
    Chill Wills

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighUintas View Post
    I like what you're saying. I'll take some of my unsized brass today, flare it, and see how a bullet fits in there
    just make sure the case will rechamber ok before you go ahead - your boolits will likely fall in .

    I have 25 yr old RCBS dies - the resize die brings internal neck size down to .452, expander button gets it back to .4575 (I dont use it until I have to to get the rounds to chamber)

    Are you using a decent overpowder wad?
    Last edited by indian joe; 04-29-2021 at 11:23 PM.

  4. #84
    IJ, did your modification of that Lee mold make it a solid base?

    I measured my Lyman M expander mandrel. The main portion before the mouth flare is 0.456. The mouth flaring portion is 0.460 and I did have it adjusted to use the entire length of the flaring bit.

    So, yes there's a bit of neck tension there.

    I'm using a cereal box was I cut with BACOs .462 hammer punch. It makes a nice tight fit in the case. You think I ought to try an hdpe wad cut from a milk jug? Not sure why the wad type would promote or prevent it

    Looking in the barrel with my borescope, I can't imagine anything I'm seeing in there would cause the leading I'm getting.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighUintas View Post
    IJ, did your modification of that Lee mold make it a solid base?

    yes I just turned the little tit off it but also milled the roundish nose off - maybe I am overcautious but that nose fit neatly inside the primer cup as it was - never seen a magazine ignition but seen pictures - my hand (only got two) and a $2000 rifle better safe than sorry I say-- the shorter boolit I made up a dummy base plug for the mold thats longer than standard so it eliminates the base driver band and lube groove
    I measured my Lyman M expander mandrel. The main portion before the mouth flare is 0.456. The mouth flaring portion is 0.460 and I did have it adjusted to use the entire length of the flaring bit.

    So, yes there's a bit of neck tension there.

    I'm using a cereal box was I cut with BACOs .462 hammer punch. It makes a nice tight fit in the case. You think I ought to try an hdpe wad cut from a milk jug? Not sure why the wad type would promote or prevent it
    wad diameter sounds good - I was doing juice box - but tried the poly because of all the long range bods were touting it - groups shrank with it so I didnt go back - I use HDPE cuz its easy to find - could not get the LDPE without a major effort and $$$'s -- my take here - we need a sturdy wad in these bigger rounds (yours more than mine) cereal box maybe not enough tough? juice box tougher, tablet backing tougher again, poly wad much more tougher again, auto gasket material tough as poly ? heavy card too ? those gurus of the 1000yard were using 60 thou LDPE - that is a stout wad !!! -- mine is 45 thou HDPE = a stout wad, it comes out of that 45/75 unscathed even with an 80 grain charge and a 500 grain boolit (yep pointy boolit loaded long and single loaded) juice box and cereal box runs about 20-25 thou - me ? I would try juice box as I think its a bit tougher and stack em - two at least maybe three - that might work better if you punch the three layers at once - might make a difference (or not) -- all theories that will come unravelled real quick if you dont get enough lube happening - have a good look at the pic of that LEE boolit and if yours is not like it - there might be your problem ----so boolit diameter 459 - 460, + good solid wad 45 thou of decent material, + lube enough you get that little lube star at the muzzle

    Looking in the barrel with my borescope, I can't imagine anything I'm seeing in there would cause the leading I'm getting.
    Maybe we forget, your 45/90 with a duplex load gonna be running pretty decent velocity

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    Maybe we forget, your 45/90 with a duplex load gonna be running pretty decent velocity
    I think I've got enough lube. In the last few sessions, I've had a good grease star on the muzzle and a bit of lube splatter on the target at 50 yds.

    I'll try a tougher and thicker wad. I'll also try cutting my 4227 charge in half, or eliminating it and seeing how the straight black does. I may revisit the MBC bullets (.459 and less leading) with a thicker tougher wad too.

    Thanks for the ideas!

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    Maybe we forget, your 45/90 with a duplex load gonna be running pretty decent velocity
    That is a good point.
    7 grs 4227 in that load is more then enough. As a test you might try the better wad and back the smokeless down to 4grns. That should cut your velocity 75 or so FPS and the two changes together may improve the load over all. ....or not.
    Chill Wills

  8. #88
    I'm hoping I can get some more loaded this week for the range. Been busy working on the house and playing with lead. I got two 5gal buckets of wheel weights for a total of $20. It's probably yielded about 50lbs lead ingots. I've been learning how to clean/flux and pour those and have been now been looking for molds. I really like IJs idea of grinding the HB cone off the Lee mold and giving it a wider meplat and the potential for casting 330gr bullets just by switching out the base plug!

    But there is absolutely none of these molds to be found on the web, unless you want to pay 3 times the MSRP on eBay. It's nuts.

    I also like the Lyman 457193 design but it's a bit more pricey and from what I've read it seems the iron molds require more maintenance than the aluminum type. Is that right?

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighUintas View Post
    I'm hoping I can get some more loaded this week for the range. Been busy working on the house and playing with lead. I got two 5gal buckets of wheel weights for a total of $20. It's probably yielded about 50lbs lead ingots. I've been learning how to clean/flux and pour those and have been now been looking for molds. I really like IJs idea of grinding the HB cone off the Lee mold and giving it a wider meplat and the potential for casting 330gr bullets just by switching out the base plug!

    But there is absolutely none of these molds to be found on the web, unless you want to pay 3 times the MSRP on eBay. It's nuts.

    I also like the Lyman 457193 design but it's a bit more pricey and from what I've read it seems the iron molds require more maintenance than the aluminum type. Is that right?
    Aluminium - Brass - Iron - all make good boolits - all got their own plus and minus - learn by doing - biggest problem with LEE molds in the bigger sizes is they get overheated easy - that mold I use has a detached base plug that I manipulate manually, just slows me down enough the mold stays nice temperature.

    yeah iron needs looking after, so you dont let em go rusty between sessions, then a little clean out before the next use - no big deal though and they less sensitive to damage than the others -

    I like aluminium because I am cheap and have got used to using them but have thought seriously about getting brass molds (or even iron) cut to copy those boolits I showed . (proly wont happen but its a good plan)

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    Aluminium - Brass - Iron - all make good boolits - all got their own plus and minus - learn by doing - biggest problem with LEE molds in the bigger sizes is they get overheated easy - that mold I use has a detached base plug that I manipulate manually, just slows me down enough the mold stays nice temperature.

    yeah iron needs looking after, so you dont let em go rusty between sessions, then a little clean out before the next use - no big deal though and they less sensitive to damage than the others -

    I like aluminium because I am cheap and have got used to using them but have thought seriously about getting brass molds (or even iron) cut to copy those boolits I showed . (proly wont happen but its a good plan)
    Yea I was really drawn to the Lee because I like their affordability despite how high of quality ammo you can load with their equipment, and the fact that the mold has the sprue plate on top... That would help prevent buggered up bases due to cutting the sprue to early or late.

    I cut some milk jug hdpe wads and they're between 0.020 and 0.025.

    You think I should do 2 of them to make 0.045 instead of just 1?

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighUintas View Post
    Yea I was really drawn to the Lee because I like their affordability despite how high of quality ammo you can load with their equipment, and the fact that the mold has the sprue plate on top... That would help prevent buggered up bases due to cutting the sprue to early or late.
    I had a reseller deal with LEE for a couple years and I bought a handful of molds and some parts - including two of the 405 HB and a couple spare base plugs - the molds were low 20 bucks landed here (our dollar was high at the time) - really like that mold - I shoot the 405 grain in my 45/75 and the 330grain shortened version in my Chiappa 86 -- If I get serious for target work I weigh the boolits and for that I bought a little electronic gold scale off ebay - cost about 20 also great little gadget much quicker than a balance scale for boolits

    I cut some milk jug hdpe wads and they're between 0.020 and 0.025.

    You think I should do 2 of them to make 0.045 instead of just 1?
    give it a go - I reckon a single wad be better tho ----- I used a 10 litre drinking water container that came from the supermarket - a bit of messing round to cut it but they come out about 45thou - a mate made me a wad punch for my big press - I made a new plunger for it till I could get .462 wads - but a hammer and punch on a decent hardwood block works fine and not much slower.

    You'll get this figured - I put a fair bit of work into getting my 45/75 shooting good but then I bought the Chiappa and nailed it with the first ten shots - main difference was been there done this already .........

  12. #92
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    You are getting good advice here.

    You only need one good mold. At least to start. One good one is worth three bad ones that you fight with to get usable bullets. Pay once-cry once.

    On wads. Plenty of ammo was made and shot with no wad. Just bullet on the top of powder. Works fine. I like and load wads because I can easily. Only in the match rifle loads can I detect the difference in what I use. LDPE wads are my go to match wad. I can't imagine me seeing the difference in any of them shooting my 1886 offhand and fun shooting. But yes, in a match singleshot rifle loaded for Creedmoor or BPCR silhouette LDPE wads are my choice.

    In your case, for now, a free Cheerios box will make a few thousand very good wads. I use them and they work for that kind of shooting.

    Thoughts on alloy, ... straight Clip on WW works - okay.
    Straight clip WW mixed with Pb somewhere around 50/50 and one to two percent tin added will be even better when using black power as fuel. Also, it performs well on game too. It is a good mix.

    Just some ideas...
    Keep having fun.
    Chill Wills

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Chill Wills View Post
    You are getting good advice here.

    You only need one good mold. At least to start. One good one is worth three bad ones that you fight with to get usable bullets. Pay once-cry once.

    On wads. Plenty of ammo was made and shot with no wad. Just bullet on the top of powder. Works fine. I like and load wads because I can easily. Only in the match rifle loads can I detect the difference in what I use. LDPE wads are my go to match wad. I can't imagine me seeing the difference in any of them shooting my 1886 offhand and fun shooting. But yes, in a match singleshot rifle loaded for Creedmoor or BPCR silhouette LDPE wads are my choice.

    In your case, for now, a free Cheerios box will make a few thousand very good wads. I use them and they work for that kind of shooting.

    Thoughts on alloy, ... straight Clip on WW works - okay.
    Straight clip WW mixed with Pb somewhere around 50/50 and one to two percent tin added will be even better when using black power as fuel. Also, it performs well on game too. It is a good mix.

    Just some ideas...
    Keep having fun.
    Agreed! Thank you guys for all the helpful information. I really appreciate it. I'm having a load of fun learning. A guy basically has to throw out 75% of what he knows about loading smokeless bottleneck jacketed rounds!

    Is your opinion that the Lee molds are a bit too much of a gamble to be able to shoot bullets as they're cast without sizing? That is my plan... Don't want to mess with or buy a sizer. I also want to make sure I get what I want, so I've got to figure that out.

    I loaded some up last night. I used the 457193 bullets and measured again. I apparently measured a couple off bullets or something last time, because I got 0.460 on them this time around. I used a single 0.025 milk jug hdpe wad in them to see what happens there, and also reduced the charge to 4gr 4227 and made up that difference with BP at 68gr.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chill Wills View Post
    You are getting good advice here.

    You only need one good mold. At least to start. One good one is worth three bad ones that you fight with to get usable bullets. Pay once-cry once.

    On wads. Plenty of ammo was made and shot with no wad. Just bullet on the top of powder. Works fine. I like and load wads because I can easily. Only in the match rifle loads can I detect the difference in what I use. LDPE wads are my go to match wad. I can't imagine me seeing the difference in any of them shooting my 1886 offhand and fun shooting. But yes, in a match singleshot rifle loaded for Creedmoor or BPCR silhouette LDPE wads are my choice.

    In your case, for now, a free Cheerios box will make a few thousand very good wads. I use them and they work for that kind of shooting.

    Thoughts on alloy, ... straight Clip on WW works - okay.
    Straight clip WW mixed with Pb somewhere around 50/50 and one to two percent tin added will be even better when using black power as fuel. Also, it performs well on game too. It is a good mix.

    Just some ideas...
    Keep having fun.
    Chill
    I agree with all of this - from whats been told so far I would expect those loads to work for me !
    with a few caveats
    (The leading has me puzzled)
    1) lube - OP sez evidence of plenty - star at the muzzle - target splatter - so thats out

    2) boolit size - I know they sposed to slug up but I never had any luck with skinny boolits, always shot em fat, (unsized a lot of the time) , softish alloy = 50/50 WW + Pb works

    3) I wonder is he winding the handle toooo fast ? Rip 5 shots through it, wait 30 seconds, grab the barrel !!!!!!!! got it!

    If ya get em hot the crud goes hard and they will lead up - usually at the front end ??

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post

    3) I wonder is he winding the handle toooo fast ? Rip 5 shots through it, wait 30 seconds, grab the barrel !!!!!!!! got it!

    If ya get em hot the crud goes hard and they will lead up - usually at the front end ??
    That there is something I thought about and forgot to ask! I always do try to keep my barrel cool or no more than a touch warm. How warm does the barrel have to be for it to increase the likelihood of leading?

    The barrel on this gun is real heavy, so I can shoot five shots a couple minutes apart each when it's about 70 outside without the barrel getting more than warm feeling.

    The first few times I shot this gun I did a great job of keeping the barrel pretty close to ambient temperature between shots. Last week when I went out, I was a little rushed for time so I let it get a little warmer than I like, but it was still only warm.

    The other thought I had today was on neck tension and bullet size and alloy. I was reading that there's potential for resizing the bullet with too much neck tension and a soft alloy. I had less leading with the hard bullets that I first used with black powder. Since my neck expanding mandrel measured 0.456, since there's going to be some spring back after expanding, I might be jamming that soft-ish alloy 0.460 bullet into a 0.455 case neck. Do you think that amount of neck tension can resize that bullet to the point where it would give me a poor seal in the bore?

    the ones I loaded last night were in the last of my Virgin brass, so next time I will load them into unsized cases that have only had the mouth flared. We'll see if that makes much of a difference in anything. Now that I'm thinking about it, maybe I'll load up five of them into my once fired brass without sizing to shoot this week. If if I can shoot five and pass a patch through the barrel without seeing lead slivers on it, I'll go home and pull those other bullets that I loaded.
    Last edited by HighUintas; 05-04-2021 at 07:47 PM.

  16. #96
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    I doubt You are shooting fast enough nor enough shots to heat the barrel to the point of leading. In summer under direct sun the barrel sure will heat to that point with a string of 15 or more. I could be wrong.
    In general, if the barrel is cool enough you can hold the rifle by the barrel, you are Okay.

    I don't think neck tension is the major issue here but in general, a larger expander / flare plug would help. .457" would be atleast good. .458 or if all your bullet were 0.460"+ a 0.459" expander would be fine. The two diamater type are best. They are the kind Buffalo Arms makes and sells. Basically a (example) 0.458" cylinder on the lower part of the expander with a 0.463" cylinder on the upper part of the expander with a small taper connecting the two. So no flare.
    You can just replace the Lyman part with the new expander.
    Below is a picture of the ones I make. The two diameters are too small to even see in the picture.
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  17. #97
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    With BP, under size bullets bump up well. The best example of that is the bore diameter paper patch bullets that bump up and shoot match accurate groups. However, "never" and "always" can get me in trouble. I would not want to go out on a limb and say the smaller bullets are not the cause of the leading.
    Chill Wills

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chill Wills View Post
    I doubt You are shooting fast enough nor enough shots to heat the barrel to the point of leading. In summer under direct sun the barrel sure will heat to that point with a string of 15 or more. I could be wrong.
    In general, if the barrel is cool enough you can hold the rifle by the barrel, you are Okay.

    I don't think neck tension is the major issue here but in general, a larger expander / flare plug would help. .457" would be atleast good. .458 or if all your bullet were 0.460"+ a 0.459" expander would be fine. The two diamater type are best. They are the kind Buffalo Arms makes and sells. Basically a (example) 0.458" cylinder on the lower part of the expander with a 0.463" cylinder on the upper part of the expander with a small taper connecting the two. So no flare.
    You can just replace the Lyman part with the new expander.
    Below is a picture of the ones I make. The two diameters are too small to even see in the picture.
    Agree again
    if you can hold it (the barrel) comfortably its fine

    I like your expander, same as I made for mine ....but I do shoot unsized if they will chamber ok - still need to use the little taper part to turn the crimp out a touch so boolits will seat without shaving .

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chill Wills View Post
    With BP, under size bullets bump up well. The best example of that is the bore diameter paper patch bullets that bump up and shoot match accurate groups. However, "never" and "always" can get me in trouble. I would not want to go out on a limb and say the smaller bullets are not the cause of the leading.
    I believe this works fine with heavier boolits - maybe not so much with lighter ones ? and take away the wad?

    Have to admit I am scratching around for reasons here - I would expect his loads as described to work for me = no leading

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Chill Wills View Post
    I doubt You are shooting fast enough nor enough shots to heat the barrel to the point of leading. In summer under direct sun the barrel sure will heat to that point with a string of 15 or more. I could be wrong.
    In general, if the barrel is cool enough you can hold the rifle by the barrel, you are Okay.

    I don't think neck tension is the major issue here but in general, a larger expander / flare plug would help. .457" would be atleast good. .458 or if all your bullet were 0.460"+ a 0.459" expander would be fine. The two diamater type are best. They are the kind Buffalo Arms makes and sells. Basically a (example) 0.458" cylinder on the lower part of the expander with a 0.463" cylinder on the upper part of the expander with a small taper connecting the two. So no flare.
    You can just replace the Lyman part with the new expander.
    Below is a picture of the ones I make. The two diameters are too small to even see in the picture.
    I was looking at those expanders today thinking about buying one. But, i kind of thought I should see what diameter bullet is going to work best in my gun before.


    Yup, if the neck tension wouldn't be the likely culprit and the wad wouldn't make that big a difference at BP pressure, I'm scratching my head a bit too.

    I guess I'll keep checking boxes til I figure it out!

    I didn't get to load any more cartridge for tomorrow, but my unsized cases will chamber just fine so I'll give that a shot next time.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check