Vaquero

[WALLNUTT]

Just picked up a new to me revolver. Ruger Vaquero, 44-40, built in 1995. Can I assume this is the older Blackhawk sized frame?

[Prairie Cowboy]

I looked it up (pretty easy).
The Old Model Vaquero was produced from 1993 to 2005.
The New Model from 2005 onwards.

[WALLNUTT]

Thank You I looked up the # but saw no mention of Old/New.

[Outpost75]

If yours is like mine was, as it comes from the factory the chamber necks in the cylinder will be too tight to load .430" diameter bullets needed to fit the .44 Magnum dimensioned .429 barrel, and the cylinder throats will also be too tight.

I had John Taylor rechamber my cylinder to enlarge the chamber necks to .448" and the cylinder throats to .4305" and it now shoots like a rifle using .430" diameter bullets, either cast or jacketed, loaded in Starline brass.

Good sturdy, strong gun which can handle full Winchester '92 level loads which approach .44 Magnum ballistics and it is well worth spending the money to have the cylinder rechambered. I use RCBS dies with a .44 Magnum expander plug and separately crimp with the Redding Profile crimp die and shoot the same loads in my 1977 Canadian assembled '94 Winchester and Marlin 1894S from the 1993 production run, which also have .44 Magnum dimensioned barrels. Most accurate bullets are from Accurate Molds 43-206H and 43-230G, loaded with 24.5 grains of RL7, 20 grains IMR4198 or 18.5 of IMR4227.

[contender1]

Actually, there is no "Old Model" Vaquero.
All Ruger 3-screw, no transfer bar safety guns are the Old Models. In 1973, the New Model Rugers were introduced with the new action, and MARKED; "New Model."
ALL Ruger SA handguns since have the safety transfer bar.

Now,, there are the ORIGINAL Vaquero's,, built on the same frame size as the Blackhawks. Then there is the MARKED "New Vaquero" that is on a mid-sized frame.
The easiest way to determine the frame size & cut out the confusion, is look at the serial number. And of them, with a 2-digit prefix,, has the full sized frame,, while any with the 3-digit prefix will be a mid-sized frame.

Also, looking up guns on the Ruger factory website can be frustrating, AND often, incorrect. All serious Ruger collectors use the Red Eagle News Exchange Reference Guide to get an accurate dating of most models. The RENE Guide has a much more accurate & detailed bunch of info on these guns.

[Texas by God]

I had one like Outpost 75 did. I had to use .427" bullets to be able to shoot it- and it wasn't accurate. Unfortunately I didn't know a gunsmith to ream the throats out. I considered fitting a .44 mag cylinder to it, but traded it for a Browning A5 instead.
Oh well.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[Larry Gibson]

As with most Ruger revolvers my original Vaquero has tapered throats. They pin gauge .431 at the rear and .429 at the front. I shoot two different 240 gr cast bullets [Lee's TL430-240-SWC and Lyman 429360] as I use those in my M92 carbine. I size both at .430 and the both shoot very well over 7.0 gr 700X giving 950 fps in the 7 1/2" barrel with a .429 groove diameter. That load runs very accurately at 1200 fps out of my 20" Cimmaron Chiappa M94 44-40.

Attachment 279220

It is, indeed, the older Blackhawk frame. The cylinder from my 50th Anniversary FTBH 44 magnum fits into the Vaquero and indexes perfectly with minimal barrel/cylinder gap. I have shot several test loads with the Vaquero 44 magnum and while it shoots accurately the sights are not regulated for other than equivalent 44-40 loads assed with the 44-40 cylinder.

Attachment 279221

[Prairie Cowboy]

The "Original" Vaqueros became the de facto "Old Model" Vaqueros as soon as Ruger introduced their replacement and officially called it the "New Model" Vaquero.

You can't have a New Model unless there is an Old Model, obviously.

[TNsailorman]

Unfortunately Ruger does not make the New Vaquero in .44-40, I wish they did. I had the first model of the Vaquero(which has a heavier frame) and it shot 12" left and 12" low at 20 yards with about anything I put thru it. It also leaded like the devil with most loads. I tried .427 bullets and .429 bullets and finally just gave up and emailed Ruger about the problem. They asked me to send it back and sent a prepaid box to do it. About a month later I received a call and they lady told me that my revolver was unrepairable because they did not have any spare parts and was not making that revolver anymore. She offered me a .45 Colt in the New Vaquero version and I took it. I found out later I could have sent it to Doug and he could have straightened out at least some of my problem and a pistol smith could have taken care of the way right and way low problems. I loved that revolver but just could not live with it the way it was at the time. Should have checked with the guys on this forum before making a decision. Ther is just something about the .44-40 that flips my trigger. james

[WALLNUTT]

This one has had the throats reamed to .430(reported). I have read about chambering problems with .430 bullets with a fix being to slightly shorten the sizing die. Sound reasonable?

[Outpost75]

This one has had the throats reamed to .430(reported). I have read about chambering problems with .430 bullets with a fix being to slightly shorten the sizing die. Sound reasonable?

Seat to length and crimp in separate operations. Use the Redding Profile Crimp die. NOT the Lee. Crimping the .430 bullet at the same time it is seated causes a bulge at the crimp, which prevents rounds from chambering.

The Lee Factory Crimp die I had was UNSATISFACTORY because it reduced bullet diameter inside Starline brass to .428" so that it no longer fit the cylinder throats.

Spend the extra money for the Redding die.

[WALLNUTT]

Took your advice and ordered a Redding profile crimp die.

[GasGuzzler]

ALL Vaqueros are New Models. Some are Vaqueros and some are New Vaqueros. BTW, Ruger didn't make a New Vaquero in .44-40 did they?

Actually, there is no "Old Model" Vaquero.
All Ruger 3-screw, no transfer bar safety guns are the Old Models. In 1973, the New Model Rugers were introduced with the new action, and MARKED; "New Model."
ALL Ruger SA handguns since have the safety transfer bar.

Now,, there are the ORIGINAL Vaquero's,, built on the same frame size as the Blackhawks. Then there is the MARKED "New Vaquero" that is on a mid-sized frame.
The easiest way to determine the frame size & cut out the confusion, is look at the serial number. And of them, with a 2-digit prefix,, has the full sized frame,, while any with the 3-digit prefix will be a mid-sized frame.

Also, looking up guns on the Ruger factory website can be frustrating, AND often, incorrect. All serious Ruger collectors use the Red Eagle News Exchange Reference Guide to get an accurate dating of most models. The RENE Guide has a much more accurate & detailed bunch of info on these guns.

Correct

The "Original" Vaqueros became the de facto "Old Model" Vaqueros as soon as Ruger introduced their replacement and officially called it the "New Model" Vaquero. You can't have a New Model unless there is an Old Model, obviously. I looked it up (pretty easy).
The Old Model Vaquero was produced from 1993 to 2005. The New Model from 2005 onwards.

Incorrect

[Larry Gibson]

I use the RCBS 3-Die Set .44-40 WCF RN, PIN: 18805 dies set. They are the late 44-40 dies made for loading .429 size bullets. I have no problem seating and crimping in the same operation with the seater dies with the lee 429-200-RF, the TL430-240-SWC or the Lyman 429360 all sized .430.

[WALLNUTT]

I bought the revolver with dies&brass but don't have them in hand yet. The previous owner had trouble chambering and would run a loaded round with a .430 bullet in the sizer die, effectively sizing the bullet smaller than the throats have been reamed to. The dies are RCBS Cowboy dies. The previous owner is not very experienced with cast bullets, so I really don't know his procedures/settings, etc. This should be fun.

[M-Tecs]

Actually, there is no "Old Model" Vaquero.
All Ruger 3-screw, no transfer bar safety guns are the Old Models. In 1973, the New Model Rugers were introduced with the new action, and MARKED; "New Model."
ALL Ruger SA handguns since have the safety transfer bar.

Now,, there are the ORIGINAL Vaquero's,, built on the same frame size as the Blackhawks. Then there is the MARKED "New Vaquero" that is on a mid-sized frame.
The easiest way to determine the frame size & cut out the confusion, is look at the serial number. And of them, with a 2-digit prefix,, has the full sized frame,, while any with the 3-digit prefix will be a mid-sized frame.

Also, looking up guns on the Ruger factory website can be frustrating, AND often, incorrect. All serious Ruger collectors use the Red Eagle News Exchange Reference Guide to get an accurate dating of most models. The RENE Guide has a much more accurate & detailed bunch of info on these guns.

This is the most succinct explanation and accurate explanation I have seen to date. I may have to steal it and post in on my range bag when I am out with my ORIGINAL Vaquero's and my NEW Vaquero's. I get tired of hearing about my Old Model Vaguero's by the so called range experts who get a deer in the headlight look when you explain it to them.

[contender1]

M-Tecs, no problem.

A lot of folks have differing ideas about what to call things. And Ruger didn't help by the way they stamped guns, AND built them.

A bit more history.
Bill Ruger's first SA handguns,, were simply marked; "Single-Six, Blackhawk, or Super Blackhawk, up until 1973.
In 1973,, with the introduction of the safety transfer bar system,, ALL of the same guns got stamped; "New Model" whatever. As such,, the generally accepted term to differentiate between a pre 1973 & post 1973 was to call the pre 1973 guns "Old Model" based upon the fact of the New Model stamping. Plus, these pre 1973 guns had a 3-screw action design, and didn't have a safety transfer bar.
When the Vaquero's were introduced in 1993, which were all built on the same main frame as the other Blackhawks & Super Blackhawks,, Ruger just marked them; "Vaquero." To add the "New Model" markings wasn't done because it was a cost savings, plus looked better. And by then, 20 years after the dropping of the 3-screw design, everybody knew the differences.
Well, after folks who shot SASS, and always wanting speed,, they complained about the weight of the Vaquero's. Add in how many folks enjoyed the original main frame size of the pre 1963 (Flattop sized) for weight & such,, Ruger introduced SOME calibers of a MARKED "New Vaquero." But some of the calibers,, that SAMMI specs would push the limits of the mainframe, (such as 44 mag,) were not built. And to make sure the New Vaquero's could be distinguished from Vaquero's the serial numbering sequence was altered,, using the 2 digit prefix on guns of the larger frame, while the "mid-sized" frame enjoys a 3-digit prefix. That way,, if a person bought a mid-sized gun, and had it customized into a .44 mag,, and it blew up, Ruger could show the courts how & why they didn't do it.
And the folks who are not as familiar with the early Ruger products,, just decided to try & call the Original Vaquero's an old model because of the New Vaquero markings. But, using something lawyers use,, called "correct terminology" to describe things, if you look at it, it's already a "New Model" due to the safety transfer bar,, AND it's a new frame size so it's a New Vaquero. And using the terms that even the folks at Ruger use,, they call the pre-1973 guns "Old Models" and ONLY the pre-1973 guns that.

Confusing?

Yes,, to many of the newer gun folks.
Does everybody care about these little differences? No,, not everybody. But,, as my wife likes to point out to the ladies we teach shooting classes to, be correct at first, and appear smart. We teach ladies shooting,, and we teach correct terminology. A magazine vs a clip etc. WHY,,, gosh,,, WHY do we do that?
Men.
Too many men feel that women are not gun people, are gun stupid, or other such machismo attitudes. If a lady uses incorrect terminology,, it reinforces that mentality. But when a lady can speak intelligently about a subject that some men feel they should be stupid in,, it can often make them stop & listen.
Of course,, not all men are like that,, but sadly too many are.
Another good reason to use the correct terminology.
If you are a newer gun buyer,, and you want a gun "just like Dad or Grandpa had," and you want an Old Model, 3-screw Ruger,, you go to shopping. And when you see; "Old Model" you may THINK you are getting just such a gun, and unfortunately, you are not unless you get a good education beforehand.

Why do I take the time to explain all this?
I'm a serious Ruger collector.
I answer questions almost daily on Rugers.
I also teach, as a NRA instructor. And if I can't use the correct terms,, and a person is (a) already knowledgeable about Rugers, or (b) learns later I used incorrect terms,, I just lost credibility with a student. Male or female.
And most of all, if a member of the press gets it wrong, we catch it,, we know they are uneducated, and I NEVER want to give the anti-gun press any reason to doubt me.

So, use my info as you wish. We are all wanting to be educated gun owners.