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Thread: 135 grain HP boolit to mimic the Speer 135 grain Gold Dot Short Barrel boolit

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wasalmonslayer View Post
    If you guys are happy I can start a group buy.

    Please let me know.

    Thanks
    WS
    As I said I'm in!

    Steve
    Steve,

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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowfin View Post
    I would be part of a group buy for this mold.
    I would be interested too. hc18flyer

  3. #23
    Boolit Buddy Low Budget Shooter's Avatar
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    I'm interested! Thanks for working on this.

  4. #24
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    I will try and get a buy rollin this weekend for us.

    Thank you for all the input!

  5. #25
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    I didn't think the dimensions of the actual Speer Gold dot would apply to a cast copy so I didn't offer samples.
    Wasalmonslayer, if you want a few let me know and I will send them.

    My thoughts changed when I read this post:

    "My experience has been that most .38 Special JHP bullets do not expand appreciably below about 850 fps. The notable exception is
    the Speer 135 grain Gold Dot "Short Barrel" loads which expand reliably at 800 fps., attainable within standard pressure
    from 2-inch barrel guns assembled to Mean Assembly Tolerance of pass 0.005"/hold 0.006" using 4.3-4.4 grains of Bullseye."

    -Outpost 75 http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...604-38-special


    So it seemed to me that we are really seeking the performance of the 135 Gold dot and not its shape.
    That's why it would be worth a look inside to see if we could learn anything.
    It was harder than I thought to cut it....
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The hollow cavity does have an odd shape, almost an ogive to it.
    If we want this to expand like a real 135 Gold dot we may want a deep pin.
    I can take some measurements if that would be helpful.

    It would be great if this boolit of ours would expand at 800 fps....

    And I kinda mangled it in the cutting process, that's why the left side is ugly....
    .
    Last edited by Cord; 03-25-2021 at 10:57 PM.

  6. #26
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    It looks as thou the mouth has a thin opening, radius to the cavity, serrations in the jacket to help it curl open.
    The best thing we could do in the hp world is use a semi deep penta pin that makes the mouth opening quite wide and have it taper to a point about 2/3 of the way to the crimp so the mouth will roll open nicely.
    Speed will have to be regulated around 850 and the cast alloy will need to be soft with some tin to make it malleable.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wasalmonslayer View Post
    Here it is stretched to 140 grains as a plain base made of ww + 2% tin.
    It will be 135 gr as a gas check HP and 136 gr as a plain base HP

    THOUGHTS??

    Attachment 279544
    Golden! sign me up!

  8. #28
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    Figured you might like this one amigo

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wasalmonslayer View Post
    Here it is stretched to 140 grains as a plain base made of ww + 2% tin.
    It will be 135 gr as a gas check HP and 136 gr as a plain base HP

    THOUGHTS??

    Attachment 279544
    YES PLEASE! Been looking for such bullet for a while now! I am currently on GB for 158 but what I really want is THIS!!! You pretty much hit all the bullet points, gas check, crimp groove, hollow point. Maybe just a tad bit deeper HP or couple different pins one for less and one for more. Looks fantastic!

  10. #30
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    I’m in
    Ill keep my guns money and freedom you keep the CHANGE!!!

  11. #31
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    I was thinking 4 HP pins deep, penta to mirror GD HP cavity, cup point, flat

  12. #32
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    Almost all of us have probably seen pictures of expanded Gold Dots showing
    the small gold dot in the center of the recovered slug.

    I never really understood the purpose of it, but now that I have cut one open
    and thought about what happens when the hollow point expands, it makes sense.

    If you look at the picture of the cross sectioned slug above in post 25,
    you can see that sliced through dot is actually a good bit below the bottom of the open cavity.

    That, I think, is effectively the true, real bottom of the HP cavity, there at the gold dot,
    right at the top of the cannelure, because that is the point we have seen it will open up to.

    It makes sense that when the petals open up they are thinner and easier to spread,
    then as they thicken and there is more metal to move resistance increases and the expansion would slow....
    but then the lead breaks away from the embedded dot, which acts as a stress relieving point.

    The dot may be as important to full expansion as the serrations in the jacket.

    I realized this by looking at the other side of the sectioned slug where a chunk of lead
    broke away from the dot by itself. The petals would break away in the same fashion.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    So perhaps there should be a long pin down to the crimp groove for use in 38 Special,
    and a shorter pin for use in .357 Magum, so that each pin would create balanced
    expansion and penetration depending on the speed of the cartridge they're loaded in.

    I think this is what Low Budget Shooter was suggesting.

    I don't even know if a deep penta pin is possible, just kicking around ideas.

    The boolit drawing looks great and the right pins could make this a truly outstanding mold.
    I will order a PB and a Gas Check version, for sure.
    .

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wasalmonslayer View Post
    I was thinking 4 HP pins deep, penta to mirror GD HP cavity, cup point, flat
    That would be good with me. I tend to use all 4 pins in my other Mehi molds, and miss the pents in those where they were not offered.

  14. #34
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    I can draw it up with a pin for both ways no issue at all.

    But what I will say on a lead hp bullet with that large of hollow point they are very hard to seat in the case without deforming the nose/hp and if not regulated to the proper velocity it will just blow the nose off.
    You have no jacket to regulate it and slow it down.
    So basically you end up with a wadcutter as the nose petals just strip away and break off.

    An all lead bullet needs a balance between expansion and strength to support the mushroomed nose.

    Not try to tell you guys we can make it that way just trying to explain what I have experienced with all my hp testing on all lead bullets.

    I think a nice hp all the way to the crimp is a great idea for 38’s but we should narrow the opening just a little so it is able to be seated without just collapsing. The other option is you would have to make custom seating stems for your bullet seating die which I have done as well.
    Only issue there is not everyone has a lathe to machine there own.

    Just food for thought I will draft a deep and shallow and post them up for inspection and thoughts.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cord View Post
    Almost all of us have probably seen pictures of expanded Gold Dots showing
    the small gold dot in the center of the recovered slug.

    I never really understood the purpose of it, but now that I have cut one open
    and thought about what happens when the hollow point expands, it makes sense.

    If you look at the picture of the cross sectioned slug above in post 25,
    you can see that sliced through dot is actually a good bit below the bottom of the open cavity.

    That, I think, is effectively the true, real bottom of the HP cavity, there at the gold dot,
    right at the top of the cannelure, because that is the point we have seen it will open up to.

    It makes sense that when the petals open up they are thinner and easier to spread,
    then as they thicken and there is more metal to move resistance increases and the expansion would slow....
    but then the lead breaks away from the embedded dot, which acts as a stress relieving point.

    The dot may be as important to full expansion as the serrations in the jacket.

    I realized this by looking at the other side of the sectioned slug where a chunk of lead
    broke away from the dot by itself. The petals would break away in the same fashion.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	135 b.jpg 
Views:	19 
Size:	49.6 KB 
ID:	280246

    So perhaps there should be a long pin down to the crimp groove for use in 38 Special,
    and a shorter pin for use in .357 Magum, so that each pin would create balanced
    expansion and penetration depending on the speed of the cartridge they're loaded in.

    I think this is what Low Budget Shooter was suggesting.

    I don't even know if a deep penta pin is possible, just kicking around ideas.

    The boolit drawing looks great and the right pins could make this a truly outstanding mold.
    I will order a PB and a Gas Check version, for sure.
    .
    Thanx for the sectioned view............
    JMHO-YMMV
    dd884
    gary@2texastrucks.com
    Gary D. Peek

  16. #36
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Here is the deep and shallow

    Deep is 131 grains
    Shallow is 135 grains
    Plain base 142 grains
    No Lube Groove is 146 grains

    Let me know your thoughts

    Thank You
    WS
    Last edited by Wasalmonslayer; 03-28-2021 at 10:55 AM.

  17. #37
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    Wasalmonslayer.....I completely agree with you regarding a thin rim on a soft lead boolit.

    I once had HP Mold Service HP a 410459 with a pin so large it was really difficult to seat the boolit into the case without deforming it,
    the pin was too wide at the mouth and I ended up chucking it into a press and sanding it down a bit...
    Lead soft enough that the nose wouldn't blow off was hard to seat without spreading.
    Lead hard enough to seat easily would fragment on impact.

    I am just wanting to offer information regarding the Gold Dot aspect of this project.

    We won't have a true Gold Dot but I think we will be as close as we can get with cast lead, and everything looks great so far!

    .

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wasalmonslayer View Post
    I can draw it up with a pin for both ways no issue at all.

    But what I will say on a lead hp bullet with that large of hollow point they are very hard to seat in the case without deforming the nose/hp and if not regulated to the proper velocity it will just blow the nose off.
    You have no jacket to regulate it and slow it down.
    So basically you end up with a wadcutter as the nose petals just strip away and break off.

    An all lead bullet needs a balance between expansion and strength to support the mushroomed nose.

    Not try to tell you guys we can make it that way just trying to explain what I have experienced with all my hp testing on all lead bullets.

    I think a nice hp all the way to the crimp is a great idea for 38’s but we should narrow the opening just a little so it is able to be seated without just collapsing. The other option is you would have to make custom seating stems for your bullet seating die which I have done as well.
    Only issue there is not everyone has a lathe to machine there own.

    Just food for thought I will draft a deep and shallow and post them up for inspection and thoughts.
    I'll defer to you judgment on the depth for this one. Just having a pent hp will make me happy.
    Steve,

    Life Member NRA
    Colorado Rifle Club member
    Rocky Mtn Gun Owners member
    NAGR member

  19. #39
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    If you guys are happy I think this will be a dang fine bullet made this way!

  20. #40
    Boolit Buddy
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    It's not a very big boolit, all things considered....
    A deep penta would only be 1/3 of an inch long...
    Same base as a short penta, just steeper sides, and should be doable....

    Go for it !
    .

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check