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Thread: Making .223 and .243 swaging dies.

  1. #1
    Boolit Mold
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    Making .223 and .243 swaging dies.

    I am making a set of .223 swaging dies to use with 22lr case's with plans to also make a set of .243 dies. I do have some experience with casting but this will be the first time swaging bullets. I do have a Herter's 308 swaging die and am using that as a pattern.
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    I started with a piece of 7/8" drill rod and threaded it to 7/8"-14 and then drilled and tapped the top to 5/8-14 like the Herter's die. I then drilled and reamed to .223. I will be polishing the bore and will be ordering some bore laps from McMaster Carr. When this is done the bore might be to large and if so I will make this into a .243 and start over with the .223.
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    I have a question for those who have had experience swaging bullets. When you swage the bullet does it have some spring back after swaging, ie do you use a .224 die for a .223 bullet? And if you do have some spring back how much would you expect?

    I know that this is going to be a learning experience and will be slow going as I have time to work on the lathe. I have also started a thread on a machinist forum that I follow. http://www.machinistweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4686

    Thanks in advance for any advice and thoughts.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    Lead is dead=no spring back.
    Brass has spring and it varies, fully annealed has little spring back.

    When polishing the die interior, use caution that the deep interior does not get larger diameter than the mouth of the die. It makes bullet ejection from the die a real bear.

    Good luck.
    To lazy to chase arrows.
    Clodhopper

  3. #3
    Boolit Bub
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    I just started swaging 224 bullets. I used all sorts of different 22 cases and my lead core maker is rough. The cases weigh almost a grain apart and my cores are 2.8 grains apart. So when I start seating cores I use the by feel method. If you run the ram to the bottom on a lighter weight core and than on a heavier one you will bend the punch. Also your core diameter will be off a few ten thousands. These rounds are for plinking and weigh 58 to about 61Gr.

    I built 10 rounds out of 22 mag cases. Yes they will de rim through a 22 de rim die. I trimmed them down to 14 grains and made cores 63 grains to make a 77gr bullet. I didn't measure the jacket length. All were made from honaday cases. All of these bullets were seated at the bottom of the ram stroke and weigh the same. The dia. is .2238. Much better then the by the feel method. My dies are from Dave corbin.

    I will be building my own dies next. I work with a guy who has invited me to over to use his cnc equipment. What a deal. I wired up some things for him and the trade pays off well.

  4. #4
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    If you reamed to .223, you are already too big for any of the .223 dies. The core seating die and point forming die each bump up the bullet a little. This is so that the bullet easily starts into the next die.

    The core seating die and punches are probably the easiest to make. The inside diameter is probably .221. The punches need to fit inside the brass to the length of the core you are seating. If the jacket is tapered, you will need different diameter punches for different seating depths. If you don't have a tight fit, the lead will extrude around the punch.

  5. #5
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by wywindsor View Post
    I just started swaging 224 bullets. I used all sorts of different 22 cases and my lead core maker is rough. The cases weigh almost a grain apart and my cores are 2.8 grains apart. So when I start seating cores I use the by feel method. If you run the ram to the bottom on a lighter weight core and than on a heavier one you will bend the punch. Also your core diameter will be off a few ten thousands. These rounds are for plinking and weigh 58 to about 61Gr.

    I built 10 rounds out of 22 mag cases. Yes they will de rim through a 22 de rim die. I trimmed them down to 14 grains and made cores 63 grains to make a 77gr bullet. I didn't measure the jacket length. All were made from honaday cases. All of these bullets were seated at the bottom of the ram stroke and weigh the same. The dia. is .2238. Much better then the by the feel method. My dies are from Dave corbin.

    I will be building my own dies next. I work with a guy who has invited me to over to use his cnc equipment. What a deal. I wired up some things for him and the trade pays off well.
    That is awesome!
    Could you share the file with me? I'd like to play with it.
    Mark

  6. #6
    Boolit Bub
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    Were just getting started. We both work at a refinery. He's a machinist and I'm an instrument tech. He looked at my corbin dies and showing me where we could make improvement's and wanting to know how many we should build. I showed him corbins price and he **** down both legs. He also has a orbital tool cutter to make the cutters. This is all new to me so it should be fun.

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by wywindsor View Post
    I just started swaging 224 bullets. I used all sorts of different 22 cases and my lead core maker is rough. The cases weigh almost a grain apart and my cores are 2.8 grains apart. So when I start seating cores I use the by feel method. If you run the ram to the bottom on a lighter weight core and than on a heavier one you will bend the punch. Also your core diameter will be off a few ten thousands. These rounds are for plinking and weigh 58 to about 61Gr.

    I built 10 rounds out of 22 mag cases. Yes they will de rim through a 22 de rim die. I trimmed them down to 14 grains and made cores 63 grains to make a 77gr bullet. I didn't measure the jacket length. All were made from honaday cases. All of these bullets were seated at the bottom of the ram stroke and weigh the same. The dia. is .2238. Much better then the by the feel method. My dies are from Dave corbin.

    I will be building my own dies next. I work with a guy who has invited me to over to use his cnc equipment. What a deal. I wired up some things for him and the trade pays off well.
    You may have missed a step here.
    Are you casting cores or cutting them from lead wire? Either way, you would normally put them through a core swage die to get your core weights pretty much exact. It is very easy to get the entire projectile within .2 gn.
    Sort your cases out by head stamp to get smaller weight variation.
    Putting a 22mag case through a 22LR derim die, that would take some doing. This does not sound right if using a D.Corbin derim die. Far easier to derim in a dedicated 22mag derim die and then anneal and draw it down in the 22LR derim die.
    Your finished projectile should measure a hair over .224, mine come out at .2242”
    Bill
    Last edited by Bills Shed; 02-27-2021 at 09:27 AM. Reason: More info added
    The bloke out in the field is always right until proven otherwise.

  8. #8
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by clodhopper View Post
    Lead is dead=no spring back.
    Brass has spring and it varies, fully annealed has little spring back.

    When polishing the die interior, use caution that the deep interior does not get larger diameter than the mouth of the die. It makes bullet ejection from the die a real bear.

    Good luck.
    Thanks for the info on spring back.

    The bor lap I have coming from McMaster Carr has a barrel length of 1.125" so should not have an issue with taper, I hope! https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/127/2885/

  9. #9
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by garandsrus View Post
    If you reamed to .223, you are already too big for any of the .223 dies. The core seating die and point forming die each bump up the bullet a little. This is so that the bullet easily starts into the next die.

    The core seating die and punches are probably the easiest to make. The inside diameter is probably .221. The punches need to fit inside the brass to the length of the core you are seating. If the jacket is tapered, you will need different diameter punches for different seating depths. If you don't have a tight fit, the lead will extrude around the punch.
    I am starting with the point forming die. I had already came to the conclusion that I have a start on the .243 point forming die and will be making another one for the 22 cal one.

    On the core seating die what do you consider a tight fit? That is something that I was wondering about when I start to make that one. Was not sure how much gap would allow the lead to extrude around the punch.

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy
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    There is excellent information in the stickies. Have a good read of them and you will have a solid starting point.
    I would suggest that you do not rush it. There is a lot to learn and consistency in every step will make you some good projectiles. How are you doing your heat treating?

    Bill
    The bloke out in the field is always right until proven otherwise.

  11. #11
    Boolit Bub
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    Bill, I used a home made mold. I also didn't care about the weight variance for a pray and spay AR. My 77 grain bullets are spot on. if you anneal the 22 mag case it goes pretty easy though the derim die. I have ran it through the 22mad derim die first and than the 22 die also. This is much harder IMO. It sticks to the punch every time this way.

  12. #12
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bills Shed View Post
    There is excellent information in the stickies. Have a good read of them and you will have a solid starting point.
    I would suggest that you do not rush it. There is a lot to learn and consistency in every step will make you some good projectiles. How are you doing your heat treating?

    Bill
    I did read a couple of the stickies several times and have gone back to them a couple of times.

    For the heat treating I plan to use my Oxyacetylene torch with a rosebud to a dull red and then give it a oil bath. I have not done anything as large as this before but I think it should work.

  13. #13
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by wywindsor View Post
    Were just getting started. We both work at a refinery. He's a machinist and I'm an instrument tech. He looked at my corbin dies and showing me where we could make improvement's and wanting to know how many we should build. I showed him corbins price and he **** down both legs. He also has a orbital tool cutter to make the cutters. This is all new to me so it should be fun.
    Orbital tool cutter?
    I never heard of that.
    Possibly, I know it by another name...
    Mark

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by rgsumpter View Post
    I am starting with the point forming die. I had already came to the conclusion that I have a start on the .243 point forming die and will be making another one for the 22 cal one.

    On the core seating die what do you consider a tight fit? That is something that I was wondering about when I start to make that one. Was not sure how much gap would allow the lead to extrude around the punch.
    The fit has to be within .001 or so. You can look inside the jacket and see if lead is getting around the punch, meaning the punch is too small. The core seating pressure is important also since there is nothing that can give, except bending a punch. You need some pressure, but not too much. The pressure is correct when it causes the the jacket to expand to the die diameter. More pressure is not better!

  15. #15
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by garandsrus View Post
    The fit has to be within .001 or so. You can look inside the jacket and see if lead is getting around the punch, meaning the punch is too small. The core seating pressure is important also since there is nothing that can give, except bending a punch. You need some pressure, but not too much. The pressure is correct when it causes the the jacket to expand to the die diameter. More pressure is not better!
    Thanks for the info. That is the spec I was shooting for. That is why I am starting with the body and will then machine and polish to fit.

  16. #16
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    Drill rod is available in just about any diameter and makes great stock for punches. You just need to make a piece of stock that holds the rod. A press fit works well. A little locktite also will keep it in place. All the pressure is compression, so the pin won’t pull out of the holder.

  17. #17
    Boolit Mold
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    I have been a little slack on posting to this forum although I did do some post to the other forum. I received the barrel laps from McMaster Carr and used valve grinding compound to hone the center hole out. It was smooth to begin with so didn't need much to complete. I wish I had some pin gauges but used the .223 reamer I had and a .224 bullet. The reamer was a loose fit and the bullet was a tight fit.
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    I did make a reamer with 4 flutes and didn't like how wide the flukes where. Also when attempting to heat treat the torch I was using created too much heat.
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    I then made another reamer. This time I used a piece of hex stock for indexing. I then made a 3 fluted reamer and was much happier with it.
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    Unfortunately this time I used a propane torch and it was not hot enough but I went ahead anyway to see how it would work. When I used the reamer to ream out the bullet point the reamer twisted but I was able to get it to work. I will be making another one as I am not happy with the way it turned out but it is a start.
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    I have one more piece to make to push the bullet into the die and then onto the die to seat the lead into the case. I just have to figure out how large a bore I need for this die. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
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  18. #18
    Boolit Mold
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    Made some more progress with making some reamers. I found the box that had my small torch in and was able to heat treat a couple of reamers for .243 and one more for .224. I was able to get them cherry red without ruining them and then into the oil bath. Next into a toaster oven set at 400 degrees for an hour. This time they turned out well and a file will not touch them.
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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
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LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check