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Thread: New to using a 'F-CLASS BR' at 50 yards...

  1. #121
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Sheesh View Post
    OS OK, for a cover, you can DIY treat your cloth of choice, dissolve Silicone caulk in Stoddard solvent (Or gasoline if you don't have any, just don't burn yourself up!) - then paint that onto your cloth, could also soak the cloth in it but that requires more mix. Ultralight Hammocking folks use that with ripstop nylon for rain flys, theycall that "SilNylon", but you could treat a tablecloth, satin, denim, most any cloth to make it waterproof that way. Fairly inexpensive and your choice of fabric.
    Thanks for the advise, I never heard of doing this before...for now, all I want to do is shoot...so...I'm hoping I can find a pre-made cover so I won't have another project for a while.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  2. #122
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Ole Big'Brain Harry Tobin saw a problem I had before I discovered it yesterday . . . He's been digging up his septic tank and hadn't had time to alert me to a solution, hahaaa...I had the same solution and got it resolved before shooting today.
    For those leveling legs to work they needed holes large enough to let them slide up and down, unfortunately that leaves a wobbel in the table...I mulled on it last night and came up with the exact solution Harry was going to tell me about.

    When is it good to have a 'wedgie'?



    So this is the end of the 'wobble'...I hope for good!



    For today's practice, I thought I'd explore both sides of the first place that indicated a possible node, I started at the row 'B', column 'G' at the '1.0-12' adjustment. That is .112" from the minimum setting of '0.0-0'...that is how much added length the adjustment adds to overall barrel length...



    I thought it may be interesting to see every setting on both sides of that possible node, going shorter by .006" in .001" adjustments at a time...also see what it looks like on the longer side of that center node setting setting too by the same amount...this shows a .013" total spread of adjustments...it is interesting what we see here, an undiscovered node...



    This new node happens to coincide with the actual scope adjustment...centered vertical and a bullet width above the horizontal. I've got it adjusted this way so I won't blow out the cross hatch in the target and make it tough to align the cross hairs in 5 shot or greater groups.

    I was thinking that I will do this for all the possible nodes in that first cursory look in the top target...next I think I should 'proove the nodes' I discover with at least one 5 shot group, maybe even several at these node settings....well, unless one of you have a better idea.
    Remember I'm working these node adjustments without any prior experience doing this with a tuner.

    I have studied this target today trying to see what physical change the barrel makes as it points in various directions as the round leaves the muzzle...I thought this might give us a clue as to whether the barrel reacts to the vibrations in a circle or if it moves in a figure 8 passing through it's undisturbed position. For the life of me, I can't see it yet, maybe I'm looking for a linear tracing and that doesn't really happen.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  3. #123
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I'm still looking for that second shot on -16.

    Is it possible that -15 represents an angled swing and -16 is the neutral point? Perhaps shoot two more at -16 to proof it.

    Then again, maybe you need to move the tuner further forward of the muzzle to see how that behaves. It could be that the node in that range is not at the muzzle. That's just a question.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  4. #124
    Boolit Master
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    What is the direction of your twist again?
    Just pondering when I used a bit of water pipe on the end of my gun and a screw thread.
    Apparently from what I could make out of it all.

    If you are on a top of a vibration isolation you get horizontal spreading
    Half way through vertical. You get wide vertical or half moons.

    Now you really want the bottom of an isolation because to lift the weight will take more time .

    The time for the bullet to move in a linear point because of dwell length is the same.

    But it is moving down then back up so it shows up as half the vertical distance on paper.

    Hope that’s clear as mud anyway.

    By moving the weight out or in your are attempting to move that point in the isolation to forward or back in that isolation to hopefully a null point.

    There maybe many vibration nodes and you are trying to find a point where the all meet and cancel each other out.

    Phew something like that.

    Of corse bullet velocity and time in barrel will alter that.

  5. #125
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Charlie,
    To "prove the nodes", you may want to consider two 10 shot groups.

    One at what this two shot method tells you is the best setting. The other ten shot group at what seems to be the worst setting. Unless there is a discernable difference in those two groups, it calls into question either the validity of the "two shot group method", or the ability to interpret what the two shot method is telling you.

    My opinion is setting 10 for the worst, and setting 16 for the best...but I am not schooled in this.

    With my mediocre bench abilities and lack of match rifle/ammo, I get so much variation in groups that 2 shots tell me nothing unless it is a lousy group. So I have a mental block in seeing much value in 2 shot groups. Waiting to be proven wrong and learn more.

    BTW, I should have my PCP rifle ready to go this week. It came with a test target of .16" at 20 yards. That should be about .5" at 50 yards...hopefully. It will certainly test my ability to shoot...LOL. I will be starting with my archaic method of 5 shot groups to test a number of different pellets so see what works the best. But your damn thread has got me thinking. I have a suppressor on my rifle. I could use brass shim stock to add between the suppressor and the end of the barrel to do the same "tuner" effect for cheap cheap cheap!

    Charlie, if you send my down this tuner "rabbit hole" I will curse you!!! I hope the rifle shoots well enough to stay stock and not drive me nuts. But that little voice (that makes me think I have some Scottish blood in me) keeps wondering, "What if I can use a tuner shim to make the $7/500 el cheapo pellets shoot as well as $20/500 match pellets?"

    BTW, enjoying your journey. I will be starting a thread to document mine in the Airgun sub forum.
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  6. #126
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    Charlie,
    To "prove the nodes", you may want to consider two 10 shot groups.

    One at what this two shot method tells you is the best setting. The other ten shot group at what seems to be the worst setting. Unless there is a discernable difference in those two groups, it calls into question either the validity of the "two shot group method", or the ability to interpret what the two shot method is telling you.

    My opinion is setting 10 for the worst, and setting 16 for the best...but I am not schooled in this.

    With my mediocre bench abilities and lack of match rifle/ammo, I get so much variation in groups that 2 shots tell me nothing unless it is a lousy group. So I have a mental block in seeing much value in 2 shot groups. Waiting to be proven wrong and learn more.

    BTW, I should have my PCP rifle ready to go this week. It came with a test target of .16" at 20 yards. That should be about .5" at 50 yards...hopefully. It will certainly test my ability to shoot...LOL. I will be starting with my archaic method of 5 shot groups to test a number of different pellets so see what works the best. But your damn thread has got me thinking. I have a suppressor on my rifle. I could use brass shim stock to add between the suppressor and the end of the barrel to do the same "tuner" effect for cheap cheap cheap!

    Charlie, if you send my down this tuner "rabbit hole" I will curse you!!! I hope the rifle shoots well enough to stay stock and not drive me nuts. But that little voice (that makes me think I have some Scottish blood in me) keeps wondering, "What if I can use a tuner shim to make the $7/500 el cheapo pellets shoot as well as $20/500 match pellets?"

    BTW, enjoying your journey. I will be starting a thread to document mine in the Airgun sub forum.
    Don, I've had the same doubts about this 'two shot' cursory node search also. We have already seen the 'wide variances' in this expensive ammo...just how much that matters, I've yet to determine.
    Nodes are all about 'barrel time' and frequency of the shot vibrations and the platform from which we send them, even the surface of the shooting bench and the equipment we shoot off of makes 'some difference'...much of that we have very little control over with the .22lr.
    This is partly a 'mind game' of trying to cover & consider every little thing we do right up to actually sending the round properly...



    This means a lot of work with the chrony out front and keeping track of shots, shot per shot numbered & located & fps included. I am not looking forward to that so I think I'll keep mulling on a good method and save that for when I think I have identified some 'solid nodes'.
    That is a good idea you have to check the 'worst node' choices also, this I will do today with 10 shot groups.

    I have searched high and low for someone on the Y-Tube that is an expert with these tuners (there are several) but there are 'few' who show anything but their best groups...that means very little to me as "every old Squirrel eventually finds a nut." . .

    I think that's a brilliant idea about using shim stock to duplicate what a tuner would do, just remember how wild these shots can disperse just by changing by .001" of an inch barrel length.
    For increments that small you may be able to use 'tin foil' washers until you accumulate so many that you can actually use a brass shim stock...I'm not familiar with the thicknesses of shim stock although this outfit seems to have it as thin as .001"...but...it's expensive! Maybe they sell it in short orders too?
    Maybe a local machine shop would sell you enough to work with...just spitwadding here Don, I'd like to see you do this in a thread as I've never seen this approach before, it's unique and I will definitely follow your work doing this...remember to put a link in my thread here so everyone will know you've started the project!
    ( https://www.onlinemetals.com/en/buy/brass-shim-stock )

    Doing this last test, I was sweating bullets as I started and worked towards that first 'node location' there in the center of this last picture...



    I was thinking..."what if they don't do a 'one holer' again...OMG...what am I trying to prove here? Then the first shot of that setting hit & came in at what I consider 12:00 in the circle and my heart just dropped...then the second shot got right in with it and the panic was over...there was some little proof after all, I hope all the node locations prove to be the same and end up being a choice of where on the barrel movement I want to shoot the node."


    @barrabruce...
    ( What is the direction of your twist again? )
    I can't answer that at the moment, seems like it was a clockwise twist looking from the breech and counter clockwise as I looked from the muzzle, I am not sure and I can't see it now as the tuner is in place and I don't intend to remove it again unless I have to.
    I left a letter to the old fella who sold this rifle through my local GS dealer, asking about all the modifications, who had made them & what he had used it for since it came with an expensive 'Pappas Rest' for open class work at distance.



    He has yet to reply, I don't think he is going to, it's been some time now since I bought the rig.
    The only thing recognizable on this build is the 'Scout CZ receiver & bolt' everything else is custom, including the barrel.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  7. #127
    Boolit Master
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    I really like bench design, job well done!
    if I were to build something fancy like that then I'd be very tempted to buy a new volquartsen or something else real accurate to shoot.

  8. #128
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I hate to mention this, but the twist will be the same direction(clockwise or counterclockwise) no matter which end of the barrel you are looking through.

  9. #129
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    I hate to mention this, but the twist will be the same direction(clockwise or counterclockwise) no matter which end of the barrel you are looking through.
    I wasn't going to say it!
    Last edited by 303Guy; 03-29-2021 at 06:44 PM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  10. #130
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    I hate to mention this, but the twist will be the same direction(clockwise or counterclockwise) no matter which end of the barrel you are looking through.
    TAZ . . . If I look in the receiver end the rifling takes off veering to the right so in my minds eye that's 'clockwise.
    When I look into the muzzle, the rifling is coming out to the left, that's 'counter-clockwise'.
    I realize it didn't change...it was just the way I was looking at it.
    I know...I'm weird!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  11. #131
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Strange results today...

    I went in to look at the worst 2 shot & best 2 shot groups re-shot in 10 shot groups. What I expected to see I didn't...now I don't know what to think?



    I did the '-16' setting twice...still don't know what to think?
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  12. #132
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    Strange results today...

    I went in to look at the worst 2 shot & best 2 shot groups re-shot in 10 shot groups. What I expected to see I didn't...now I don't know what to think?



    I did the '-16' setting twice...still don't know what to think?
    If either one is a node the node probably does not make your groups much smaller than a random setting.

    Tim
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  13. #133
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Maybe get a 10 shot or two ten shot groups without the tuner to establish a baseline. That should give you an idea of what the tuner is actually doing.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  14. #134
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    Maybe get a 10 shot or two ten shot groups without the tuner to establish a baseline. That should give you an idea of what the tuner is actually doing.
    I would agree with that except for one point. By removing and reinstalling the tuner, it may not work exactly the same and all his testing so far will be wasted.
    The bare barrel testing should have been done prior to testing with the tuner in place.

  15. #135
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    Could be wind .
    You could cheat and run a line with tails on it all the way to the target.
    Sure you ain’t getting and swirly winds coming up/down from on direction?

    The range I shoot the wind come up over the roof and then comes down about 20 yards in front of it in one direction.
    Swirls around another part and sometimes shaded by trees from the wind but has a clear spot where it can push on things too.

    I can’t read it but some people are full on tuned to it all.

    Well according to a local br50 people.
    It’s all in the wind.

  16. #136
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by barrabruce View Post
    Could be wind .
    You could cheat and run a line with tails on it all the way to the target.
    Sure you ain’t getting and swirly winds coming up/down from on direction?

    The range I shoot the wind come up over the roof and then comes down about 20 yards in front of it in one direction.
    Swirls around another part and sometimes shaded by trees from the wind but has a clear spot where it can push on things too.

    I can’t read it but some people are full on tuned to it all.

    Well according to a local br50 people.
    It’s all in the wind.
    It might be that "simple". But that is way beyond what I can deal with. It is difficult enough for me to try to make my shots when the wind seems "about the same" as when I started the group.

    As to OS OK's last three 10 shot groups, frankly I am not too surprised. Unless you have extremely capable ammunition, gun and shooter combo (BTW, I am NOT suggesting OS OK is not capable) I cannot wrap my head around the value of 2 shot groups. It seems to waste time and money, while trying to save time and money. If I try my Hillbilly tuner idea out (BTW have found shim stock down to .001"), I will not be using the two shot method unless Charlie finds it works and explains it, or I find someone who can explain and answer my questions.

    Tazman, I respectfully disagree with your comment. Taking the tuner off and establishing a "base line" is worth doing. If Charlie can shoot the gun/ammo into 5/8" groups without the tuner, it would seem his work to date with the tuner has not been productive anyway. I keep hearing that a change of .001" can "make or break" the accuracy node and I cannot understand why when there are so many other factors at play. First is the variability of the ammunition. Then there is the natural heating of barrel as it is shot. Lastly, ambient conditions. Let me explain the heat issue.

    The coefficient of expansion of steel is .0000072"/degree/in. If a 24" barrel changes temperature by 30* either due to the ambient conditions or barrel heat during shooting, it will expand just over .005"....that is five times the .001" "make or break" claim. So testing done at 50* will be questionable if shooting during an 80* day. Then add in barrel heat from shooting. I suppose a thermocouple could be placed into the barrel and tuner settings changed relative to barrel heat....but it is getting a bit far fetched IMO.

    BTW, we know a "hot" barrel can shoot to a different POI than a "cool" barrel so this is already a proven phenomena. In a HV rifle, the barrel temperature differences are higher than 30*. All this to say, I do not buy into the .001" claims of the difference between success and failure unless someone can explain it to me. So, I will keep shooting like I have for 50+ years and wasting ammunition on multiple 5 shot groups, until I am like the blind squirrel that finds a nut, and find a load I can live with.
    Don Verna

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  17. #137
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    The only thing that concerns me about taking the tuner off is he will essentially be discarding all the testing he has done to this point and will be starting over.
    Not necessarily a bad thing. Particularly if the rifle shoots as well or better without the tuner as with it. No way to know without taking it off and finding out.
    It would be hard for me to just write off all the time and ammunition spent on testing so far. It is up to him whether or not it is worth it.

    Everything else you said, I agree with.

  18. #138
    Boolit Master
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    Well I’m not trying to say I know much but from what I can make of it.
    You are going to get these variations and these are ball park figures.
    .1 or2 from velocity variation
    .1 up to ? to from wind effect.
    We’re are already a bullet hole deflected before we start.
    That being that you have all your other **** twisted tight.
    That is why when I have spoken to top shooters talk about a event they went to will say they sometimes spend more time on the practice target when they think they got their condition again than shooting for score or group.
    Things like it was tough with the mirage and I put one down on the slighter and and it went woof way off over there.
    I was running out of time and went for a run of safe nines.

    I wanna house with a indoor wind tunnel in the back room from my loading and workshop like some do to set up their guns.
    Easier to get a snack or cuppa then and air conditioned.

    How hard some have it.

    I see the br50 mob go through eley tenx quicker than a teenager with a 22 pistol and a bucket of bullets just practicing for an event.
    Last edited by barrabruce; 03-30-2021 at 06:26 PM.

  19. #139
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barrabruce View Post
    Well I’m not trying to say I know much but from what I can make of it.
    You are going to get these variations and these are ball park figures.
    .1 or2 from velocity variation
    .1 up to ? to from wind effect.
    We’re are already a bullet hole deflected before we start.
    That being that you have all your other **** twisted tight.
    That is why when I have spoken to top shooters talk about a event they went to will say they sometimes spend more time on the practice target when they think they got their condition again than shooting for score or group.
    Things like it was tough with the mirage and I put one down on the slighter and and it went woof way off over there.
    I was running out of time and went for a run of safe nines.

    I wanna house with a indoor wind tunnel in the back room from my loading and workshop like some do to set up their guns.
    Easier to get a snack or cuppa then and air conditioned.

    How hard some have it.

    I see the br50 mob go through eley tenx quicker than a teenager with a 22 pistol and a bucket of bullets just practicing for an event.
    No possible way I can afford that. Probably why I am so reluctant to discard all the testing the OP has already done.
    Just me though. I have to be cheap.
    Also I am not trying to shoot one hole. I am trying to do ARA factory class. It's a lot different than BR50. I can get by with a well centered half inch group at 50 yards.

  20. #140
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    It's been a frustrating couple sessions today... but I think I learned a tiny bit more.

    Not having seen what I wanted to see in Monday's bench work I went to bed confused...
    Today I figured I'd repeat that target and have another look.
    That 2-shot business is not my invention...it is suggested, I think by the manufacturer in working with their tuner. I believe that link to the instructions is posted somewhere in this thread.
    Being the Neophyte at this game I thought I'd follow instructions, even if I didn't understand...eventually I might.
    What I want to see is groupings that basically include those two shots when I go to prove that particular adjustment, prove it good or bad.
    I tried again early this morning...



    Now I know the ammo is a big part of this and I'm using the best I can afford. I don't know this ammo's characteristics very well so in my confusion, I immediately start thinking I got a string of bad ammo? Then I think maybe it's something else...but after this mornings session I'm sure it's something else.
    Those are not groups...those are pitiful attempts...
    Now I'm thinking that barrel is at it's max again and starting to open up groupings, I think the last time it did that I was right at 300 rounds.
    Okay....simple fix...a cold beer and a wet Hoppes mop & I'm back in business...I'll just have another go at it this afternoon.

    One little caveat though....the wind got bad...so I just timed my shots for a lull. That worked ok for the first target, I knew that one would be all over the place after mopping the bore so that's acceptable, I know it'll shoot back in pretty quickly.
    But after that the wind got relentless and the lulls were few and far in between...I'm stubborn, I went with it anyway...



    Notice the groups moved over and except for a FTF & one single loner in the third target... almost stayed there left of center...again today I proved nothing but I did have an interesting thing happen, that FTF, a failure to fire.
    Look at this...



    First time this has happened with any of the Eley I've used ... I rolled her over and shot her again...see the 'FTF' note on the middle target up at 10:00? That wasn't wind, that was that cartridge did that...don't understand it either...yet.



    Well, again...not much to write home about but I still want to try this again but without the wind to deal with. I'll have to wait for a few days now for calm weather, it was gusting 30mph by end of day...same for tomorrow.

    About trying the rifle without the tuner. I know I shouldn't do it, I'm taking a chance on getting it back on exactly the same...but what the heck, I'm going to do the 'bare barrel test' anyway! I have only 500 rounds left of this tenex.
    Soon I hope to have 3 bricks of Eley Match at 1,048 fps so I'll have to start over with that testing. That's ok by me, it's all good practice.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check