New to using a 'F-CLASS BR' at 50 yards...

[tazman]

I got to the range today. It was warm in the mid 60s and a little breeze from a direction that should not bother shooting at all.
Other than that, things did not go well. I was having a poor shooting day. All my own fault.

The rifles were doing well but I wasn't. Nothing to see here move along. (I was looking for an emoji of crying my eyes out with big tears but couldn't find one).

[OS OK]

It has been a while...since I rolled the CZ out to the 50!

I've been so involved with the 'vintage rifles' & 'homespun tuners' for pencil barrels that the CZ has been neglected. I thought I might get her out for a morning of relaxation with no data to be gathered...just pure pleasure.

I've looked back in the photos of targets this past year and can't find another that is better than this one...here, the wind was mild and it seemed to only move the projectile by 1/2 to a full diameter from POA.
This is the first real success I've had so far in 'compensating for the wind'.



(That red outline on the chart below was the wind I delt with today.)

I didn't wait for the wind to calm, I just took a glance at the wind flags, made my estimation of where my POA would be and let'er go.

One thing I did do was to keep in mind "only the POI's of what 'this wind' I had blowing would do, not confuse myself with the entire chart I keep on the iPhone".



One of the things I have to keep in mind is that our rifles don't shoot 'pinpoint' of aim as if they were laser beams...in other words...they shoot a footprint of the best groups you have been shooting lately.
SO estimating what I think the wind level must be for each hole in any particular wind direction shown above is really difficult to determine. That 'footprint' I mentioned has everything to do with the results we are getting. In the end that footprint 'muddles the data'

[tazman]

The next trick is learning which wind has more effect on POI, the wind nearest the shooter, the wind halfway downrange, or the wind the last yards to the target.
If the wind is consistent over the entire distance to the target, the offset is much easier to figure.
On the range I shoot, the wind swirls, making the wind blow in different directions with different force depending on where you are between the firing line and the target.
The wind may well be blowing three different directions and speeds between me and the target. I can see it doing this as it blows the leaves on the ground.
Then you also need to deal with gusts, which can be completely unpredictable, in both direction and force.
Tough conditions even on a relatively calm day.

The most calm day I shot all summer had a 5 mph wind.

[dverna]

The next trick is learning which wind has more effect on POI, the wind nearest the shooter, the wind halfway downrange, or the wind the last yards to the target.
If the wind is consistent over the entire distance to the target, the offset is much easier to figure.
On the range I shoot, the wind swirls, making the wind blow in different directions with different force depending on where you are between the firing line and the target.

The wind may well be blowing three different directions and speeds between me and the target. I can see it doing this as it blows the leaves on the ground.
Then you also need to deal with gusts, which can be completely unpredictable, in both direction and force.
Tough conditions even on a relatively calm day.

The most calm day I shot all summer had a 5 mph wind.

The wind near the shooter has the most affect. Say you had a wind in the first 10 yards that displaces the bullet .05”, and no wind for the next 40 yards. The bullets will continue off course by .05” every ten yards. That bullet will impact .25” from POA. Simple trigonometry.

If there is no wind for the first 40 yards, the bullet flies true. A wind that blows the bullet .05” off course during the last 10 yards will impact .05” from POA.

[OS OK]

This is an old thread...but it has been revived lately and is an outstanding read...don't miss it, evidently a couple of these comments come from top shooters that have been in the game and winning for decades!
It starts out a little slow with tidbits of good information and links but by the 2'nd and 3'rd page...it's hard to put down & stop reading.

.22 LR Rifle Barrel Length vs Accuracy (don't let the title stop you, this turns into a 'data driven' all around discussion.)
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum...ad.php?t=84827

[dverna]

This is an old thread...but it has been revived lately and is an outstanding read...don't miss it, evidently a couple of these comments come from top shooters that have been in the game and winning for decades!
It starts out a little slow with tidbits of good information and links but by the 2'nd and 3'rd page...it's hard to put down & stop reading.

.22 LR Rifle Barrel Length vs Accuracy (don't let the title stop you, this turns into a 'data driven' all around discussion.)
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum...ad.php?t=84827

Yes, a good read, and it shows that things have not changed when it comes to accuracy. Thanks for posting the link!

The other take away is how critical reading the wind is. Having a gun and lot of ammunition that groups .3" at 50 yards doesn't do a lot of good if someone cannot read the wind within 3 mph. A guy who can read the wind will eat your lunch with a gun/ammo that groups .5"

[tazman]

Interesting read. I think we had already discussed most of that in this and other threads at some point.
I wish I had the money needed to do the ammo testing it would take to find that/those optimum lot/lots of ammo. That may be the worst part of this rabbit hole, the cost to do it the best way.
I have a couple of rifles that, on calm days, can shoot tiny groups. I don't have the money to test multiple lots of expensive ammo to find the ones that give me the best groups.
Who is to say that, when the temperature changes, the same ammo will give the best groups over a different one?
The rifle I have tested the most will change ammo preferences when the temps change more than 10-15 degrees. That temp change is easily accomplished here when shooting early and the day warms up. We often have 30 degree temp swings in the summer. In the desert, the swings are larger.
One of the posts in that thread said the shooter tried several different lots to see what was doing the best ON THAT DAY.
The shoots I participated in, you started cold with no warm up time other than what you used during your allotted match time. You had 20 minutes to do all the shooting you were going to do, warmups included.
The info about getting a hand lapped barrel is interesting and fall in line with my recent experience with one of my rifles. I have a rifle(CZ 455 Varmint) that was shooting less than great groups. I hand lapped it some, then tested it to see if it made much difference. Even with the small amount of lapping I did to it, the accuracy improved noticeably. The lapping test on that rifle is not over but will need to wait for warm weather to return.
So will my education on learning to read the wind properly.

[tazman]

I should have gone to the range yesterday. 70 degrees in the afternoon. Sunny.
It would have been a good day to learn how to shoot in the wind. Wind was blowing 30 mph with gusts up to 50. Quartering across the range.
I probably would have come home disgusted.

[dverna]

I should have gone to the range yesterday. 70 degrees in the afternoon. Sunny.
It would have been a good day to learn how to shoot in the wind. Wind was blowing 30 mph with gusts up to 50. Quartering across the range.
I probably would have come home disgusted.

You are a braver man than I. The weather was so mild I nearly set up on the back porch. But I was too chicken.

[tazman]

I made my first trip of the year to the bench rest range. It was a perfect day. Temp in the low 70s slightly overcast. No discernible wind. Not even the tops of the trees were moving.
I even had the range nearly to myself for a while. Only two other shooters were there but they stayed on the far benches, so I had nothing to distract me.
The perfect day continued. I was using my CZ 457 MTR. I had not fired it since last fall some time. I had cleaned it just before I put it away so I ran a dry patch through the barrel to remove any residue and proceeded to warm up a bit. It took about 15 shots to get the rifle and me working together well.
It seems that all my zigs and zags evened out for a while.
Here is my target.


This is the only perfect score I have ever fired on this target. I may never do it again but at least it happened once.
The row of sighter targets across the bottom were five shot groups fired with a different rifle. Almost got another perfect there. Just a couple of small slips. Everybody deserves to have a good day once in a while.

[uscra112]

Well, congratulations !

[303Guy]

That's awesome!

You will of course be framing that set?

I'll be going to my range this coming Sunday. I don't expect that kind of result but I will try.

I find it hard to concentrate these days but I am improving slowly. Seeing your results is motivating!

[dverna]

Excellent shooting Tazman!

[OS OK]

Wow...it's been a long time since I've visited this thread.
Still shooting the CZ452.
I've added a new 100 yard bench and concrete pad...now the wind can really have it's way with me.



Been working on this lane and the 50 yard lane at the same time...all last week. Haven't used the 50 yet but it's ready to go now...



I have been consumed with trying to make small groups on the 100. It's a challenge that makes you really pay attention.
The first challenge I did was to try to hit what I am aiming at.
Jaia, a shooter over on RimfireCentral.com came up with the idea of keeping all your shots on a 3/4" sticker dot @ 100 yds. Says that if you can do that consistently you truly have a MOA rifle & ammo combo.
So I gave it a try...



This is what gave me the idea to build a dedicated 100 yard lane, I was shooting off a makeshift picnic table...kinda sad looking!



So much flex and wiggle...that did it, I had to do it all proper so the fat'man went to work framing up forms for the 50 & 100.





Today was the second time I got to work on my sight settings on the 100 yd lane...I've been wishing for some 'dead slack' mornings but they are just not happening this time of year with all this heat.
I think what I need to develop is a cheat sheet with scope settings for the rifle on both lanes but get the data from absolutely quiet mornings...then I can 'twist turrets' and work the wind...errrr...learn to work the wind.



Never imagined that I'd be working a Green Monster at 100, I was a bit intimidated by it.
I also built another bench, this one made from scrounged steel...



Of course, I have to give a heart felt thanks and big hug to my big brother Manny...he always saves my bacon when I bite off a big project that an old fat'man shouldn't tackle alone. Between us we have 147 years of life behind us...



Well...that's it for tonight, I hope some of you guys that have been a part of this thread are still around and kicking!

charlie

[tazman]

I love it!
Great setup and great shooting. I wish I had room here for that bench setup.
I have to drive 40 miles to get to my club to have that much room.

[dverna]

I was wondering when you would post again on this thread...and you have not disappointed.

Nice set up and even nicer shooting. That first target is amazing!!!

Why is target #8 a fail? .532"

[OS OK]

Good morning tazman & Don

We had a bad wet snow event in the first of this year, the tree men finally got around to my place for cleanup (it was bad all over the county...lost so many majestic old oaks & the pines took a wallop too, $11,000 cleanup costs makes me sick to think of it now but it's over and done and just a bad memory)...anyway, when the saw chips settled, I discovered I had a great lane for 100 yards just down the hill and parallel to the 50 yd bench...We had just poured that pad and moved up to the 50, you can see it reflecting light down by the power pole below...



This is looking at the 100 yard butts from the new bench...



The lead catcher is my old 55 gallon drum filled with mulch...



Good job for it as it hasn't been used much since building the steel trap, all I need to add is 10 rail road ties behind it and elevate that drum on a permanent mount but for now it's good to go.

Don...I called #'s 2 & 8 FAILS because I had a shot off the green dot. Part of the challenge was to hit what I am aiming at and do it under 1 MOA.

I am excited to shoot on 100 yards now even more so than the 50 was when it was a new lane...this .22lr is a tough one to manage when you stick it out there and try to do precision shooting. My objective, if it's possible is to shoot 'bughole' groups on those 3/4" dots and do that with a little help from the wind. I suppose I'll learn to manage the wind first as I don't seem to have those spring mornings where the mountain air stops for more than an hour or so before the valley air starts coming back up the mountain.
Either way...I'm tickled to be consumed again with shooting the CZ...sure glad you boys are still around and kicking, been seeing some friends and acquaintances leaving the rock lately.

[dverna]

You are doing great IMO. All those groups are under 1 MOA!!

I hate the wind too, but we need to learn to shoot in it. I try not to do meaningful pellet testing if I have much of a crosswind. Luckily, I like trigger time so when the wind gets bad, I try learning to either hold off for wind drift or try to shoot when I think wind conditions are the same for each shot in string. Still have not come up with the best way. If it was easy a cave man could do it...LOL.

[OS OK]

Hi Don...
When i first started thinking about challenging & hopefully mastering the wind, I downloaded several wind charts for the RH Twist .22lr rifle.
One like this one, I thought would be helpful but I never could get my wind testing to relate to it 100%...



I thought this should be simple, just determine what velocity of wind would offset my POI from my POA and I could start building a database to establish my own numbers and come up with a 'cheat sheet chart' of sorts? It didn't work.
I think our ranges are so different, that they all have various wind blocks of sorts or you are situated next to a wall...or whatever, that...I don't think I can make a cheat sheet chart that would work for anything but my particular range...better yet, I just run multiple flags down range spaced apart equally so I can get a feel for the average of the whole group. That's confusing as heck too.
I'm wide open for suggestions on this wind!

I've recently done several cards where I just shoot for the X on a Green Monster or the cross hatches of a grid and quickly after the shot, look at the wind meter and note the velocity and then look at the flags and note the direction, then jot the info down on a chart where I tracked each individual shot. I got good at calibrating in my mind, the velocity and flag angle and this is beneficial...but...trying to plot the POI offsets and velocity just didn't work out. There's too much descriptency between slight wind angles. I'm afraid this was a failed idea...





I've been doing some form of this for a long time, I lay the cards out and compare them & try to correlate them to each other to come up with some average between them and I always walked away frustrated and seeing meaningless holes everywhere I looked for the rest of the day.
Now, the best I can do is shoot across the 'X' 180º and offset my POA to match whatever distance I need...SO LONG AS...the wind velocity is less than around 3 mph. I think 3 mph will offset a POI by about a full diameter of the projectile? I'm not always successful doing this, I used that method today somewhat and it wasn't 100% working.

About this morning's card...

Instead of pencil and notepad and meticulously taking notes (something that greatly distracts from sending rounds downrange!) I just monitor this new wind meter and get a synopsis of the day and a feel for what I am feeling on my face.



This meter gives me the current wind velocity (top number)
the maximum wind blowing since I turned it on at the start of the session (middle number)
and the average wind for this period (bottom number)

I kinda like this, it's simple and I need simple. Also, with this type of 'wind vane' meter I can place it where I can see it from my cheek weld without ruining that and see what's going on...that minimizes the delay between deciding on the wind velocity & deciding when to send one. Also Slowly, I am moving my downrange flags closer in to my sight path so I can see them, at least some of the flags as I look at the card through the scope. My 36 power scope has such a narrow field of view, if I'm not careful, I can get the flags entirely in the way of the shot.

Today's card is a mystery...

I intended to make it a short session, I wanted to see my current lot of Eley Match (1055fps) across the top row including the first spot for barrel warmer/seasoners...
then...compare their groups to last years lot of Eley Match (1057fps) in the second row (I had 20 rounds).
I thought, they'd shoot very close to each other.
Boy was I surprised!



Right off the groups just blew up...so bad that I was suspecting something wrong with the rifle...after the 20 rounds I couldn't wait to get to the third row to find out what's the matter here? Is it rifle or ammo?
Then the first spot of the 1055fps ammo blew up too? What the Heck?

Well I sat there for a moment mulling & decided to run one wet Hoppes patch through and two dry patches (my normal routine every session) and see if it'd clear things up?
Well...it did but I'm still confused as what the heck happened this morning? Because of the cleaning, the second spot on the third row became another 'warmer/seasoner spot with a CBS and the short series of the rest of the group walking back into the barrels norm.
Then the third through fifth groups got right again...geeeez! Go figure?
It wasn't me, I was on my game.

When I got to the second row, I had 40 rounds, that's why I left the last spot empty.
OK...that's it for today, hope to hear from you and tazman again.

charlie

[OS OK]

I'm not sure but I did notice something today that I've seen before and had payed it no mind.
New boxes of E. Match, fresh opened and having one side or end of the ammo carrier inside pushed into the box.



Kinda weird heh? I took it to the shop and marked it with a yellow paint pen so I could keep track of that corner & I pulled the carrier out and found this...



You can see where the paraffin was rubbing heavy against the bottom of the box. I wonder if that might actually loosen the projectile some when the box gets pushed in? I don't know but I've seen this box carrier damage happen before. I'm going to pay closer attention in the future.

Discovering this and having a 'loose group card' today, I think this damage may explain at least some of the fliers?



Today's wind...