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Thread: New to using a 'F-CLASS BR' at 50 yards...

  1. #41
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    One can see that the tuner has an effect by the shift of POI. Looking at Varmint Al's animation, I would be guessing that the idea is to tune the three nodes so as to self cancel.
    I think...(dangerous idea!) that the objective is to get that last node exactly at the muzzle.
    Everything we do, bedding, torque on the stock screws, extra barrel supports within the stock, etc., etc., etc., ...every little trick to build a solid platform leads towards the tuner as a last resort to fine tune the location of the node, the last node on the muzzle end.
    Even the pressure we put behind the stock has something to do with those vibrations going down the barrel and back. Seems there are two modes of manipulating the nodes...'tuning & dampers'...as shooters we are part of the 'dampening' effect.

    THIS IS A DEEP RABBIT HOLE 303Guy!



    [from this article... http://www.ozfclass.com/articles/1/psm_2005_03.html ]

    I've been watching & reading so much about harmonics now, I'm on overload...it'll prolly take a week to mull it all over and review different sources to get it as straight as possible in my little pea sized brain!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  2. #42
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Just a general question.....

    The tuner is not actually adding barrel length but positioning the mass of the device further out past the end of the barrel....is this correct?

    And the effect is so sensitive that a difference of a few thousandths of a inch can be discerned.

    I am having a difficult time understanding how a two shot group tells us much. I read the link posted by OS OK, and could not wrap my brain around it. Neither my ammunition or my abilities are capable of the precision needed to have any confidence in a load unless I fire multiple 5 shot groups.
    Don Verna


  3. #43
    Boolit Grand Master
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    And another tid bit I found surprising ....I will post later as I need to be on my computer to find it....

    The tuner setting for optimum group size at 50 yards will not be same to get the best group at 100 yards.
    Don Verna


  4. #44
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    Just a general question.....

    (A) The tuner is not actually adding barrel length but positioning the mass of the device further out past the end of the barrel....is this correct?

    And the effect is so sensitive that a difference of a few thousandths of a inch can be discerned.

    (B) I am having a difficult time understanding how a two shot group tells us much. I read the link posted by OS OK, and could not wrap my brain around it. Neither my ammunition or my abilities are capable of the precision needed to have any confidence in a load unless I fire multiple 5 shot groups.
    (A)... It has been explained that although the tuner is not part of the barrel as far as the bore goes, it is part of the length of the barrel as the harmonics now travel out full length to the end of the tuner, reverberate/oscillate back and forth and that changes the position of the nodes...the same as shortening the barrel changes node position.
    One of the guys on one of the videos explained that the harmonics travel so fast in the barrel steel that they go back and fourth several times before the projectiles exits the muzzle.

    (B)... I think the two shot groups are an efficient & expedient way to gather coarse information about what that tuner will do set from one extreme to the other & help to determine where the potential nodes might be.
    The author better explains this than I... from this article > http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=660

    ...Tests were conduct with two (2) shot groups. “If two shots don’t group, three shots will not improve it.” Unfortunately, a great two-shot group DOESN’T mean that the resulting three or five shot group will be small. Hence, multiple groups must be shot to determine the average group size and variation for a given tuner setting. By shooting multiple two-shot groups at each tuner location and averaging the results, we could determine the relationship between tuner location and accuracy. To further verify this additional three (or more) shot groups could then be fired...
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  5. #45
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    So. the two shot groups are an indicator that needs to be followed up with testing of the best settings. Makes sense. The poor two shot groups as an indicator of where not to test further also makes sense.

  6. #46
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    And another tid bit I found surprising ....I will post later as I need to be on my computer to find it....

    The tuner setting for optimum group size at 50 yards will not be same to get the best group at 100 yards.
    I would think that best group settings at 50 yards would carry over. Using the same ammunition and rifle, the nodes would still be in the same place hence best accuracy would occur regardless of the distance shot.
    What am I missing?

  7. #47
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    I would think that best group settings at 50 yards would carry over. Using the same ammunition and rifle, the nodes would still be in the same place hence best accuracy would occur regardless of the distance shot.
    What am I missing?
    This is what I would have thought too.

    OS, that refines what I was guessing at. I was thinking the best one could hope for would be to get the muzzle parallel to the axis at point of exit. I didn't think it would possible to actually shift the node to the muzzle.
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  8. #48
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    And another tid bit I found surprising ....I will post later as I need to be on my computer to find it....

    The tuner setting for optimum group size at 50 yards will not be same to get the best group at 100 yards.
    That sounds strange and somewhere I've heard that before but it went in one ear and out the other. I think my mind was on another aspect of harmonics and that information didn't register. Glad you brought it up, if it is valid...I'd sure like to understand why?

    Tuesday's Target...
    A great day for precision shooting with the wind out of the North & being mostly blocked by the house and trees, the 3 mph light breeze I think, had no affect.
    Errr.....at least I can't use the wind for an excuse!



    The bottom line... I think I see more open groups, more vertical dispersion too?
    I was surprised to see the first warmer shot hit at 12 and then the next 4 shots drop in the same hole under that, I still don't know what to make of that other than the warmer shots are strictly random until we get a substantial layer of wax laid in the bore for the day?

    I think for today I will look at the '0.5-19' setting and the '0.5-18' after that next?
    Unless someone has a better idea?

    "A thought that keeps surfacing...maybe I am within a click or two of a node right now? I keep expecting to see one neat and clean 1-hole target repeated at least several times in the 4 ea. 5-shot group tests? Am I seeing the best that the 'Eley-Match' can do? That I can't answer as this is the first time I have shot it. Does anyone have experience with this ammo and have any examples to show? This 'Eley-Match' is not their top of the line ammo."
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  9. #49
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    This is what my harrel tuner looks like with the weight kit.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    There are 3 different steel weights and 3 different aluminum weights, 6 oz total.

    The tuner was being used a kimber 82g that had a 25" bbl using ammo from a case of lapua midus-m/1065fps.

    In 2006 tuners seemed interesting and I wanted to see what they were capable of. I had 2 winchester 52'd and a remington 40x/700 action. I knew how these shot so I bought a kimber 82g from the cmp to use as a test bed. The 82g got whooped up on pretty good strait out of the box. It did better after pillar's were installed along with a bedding job. The bolt was also re-worked and the trigger group. The kimber shot better after the work but still couldn't compete with the 40x's or 52d's.

    Put the tuner on that 82g and got it dialed in. After that the 52d's and 40x's had all they could handle.

    Ended up selling the kimber, 1 of the 52d's and the rem 40x/700 action and bought a NIB 1600 series anschutz 54 match. The 54/1600 series had the x-barrels on them.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    I didn't want a custom rifle or build a custom so I bought the anschutz to play around with for 50yd br with the tuner along with using it for 4p.

    Ended up liking sporter 22lr's more so I sold a remington 40x/722 action I picked up just for the heck of it and the other 52'd. Still have the anschuz/1600 series and it still sits around with the original oil from the factory on it/still NIB, unfired.

    I still keep up to date with tuners/rifles/the br crowd. They have a pretty good following at a local club I'm a member of and enjoy talking with the people shooting the 50yd br with their tuners/customs/etc. They have monthly shoots along with holding the state shoot at that club.

    Big $$$ in ammo & iron

  10. #50
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Very impressive stuff there Forrest r... This rig I bought looks dated a bit, I wonder if that Harrels tuner I have is one of their early models before they incorporated variable weights to it?

    What kind of a front rest does that rifle in picture sit on? I don't recognize the stuff bolted on the bottom of the forestock.
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  11. #51
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    That is an aftermarket set of weights. Google harrel tuner and you'll find different websites that sell them.

    That "front rest" is an adjustable hand rest for shooting offhand.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    It's important to shoot over a chronograph, fast ammo should hit high and slow ammo low. If you're seeing a mix of high hits with slow shots you don't have the tuner set correctly. Or the given weight of the tuner is not enough to correctly tune the bbl.

    It's a 4p rifle (4 position/prone, kneeling, sitting, offhand/standing) with adjustable front palm rest, adjustable trigger, adjustable palm rest/cheek rest/length of pull & an adjustable offhand butt hook.

  12. #52
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    I made a composite picture of your latest range session. It is photoshop magic but it is not fake. That is what your shooting would have looked like if you did not change your POA between 5 shot groups.

    I think it is impressive. I don't really know what would be the standard by which to judge but I am thinking you might be limited by the ammo's ability. You are using ammo right out of the box with no sorting or sizing, right?

    Attachment 278904

    I am guessing that is a one inch circle and the 20 shot group is under a half inch.

    Tim
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  13. #53
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    I made a composite picture of your latest range session. It is photoshop magic but it is not fake. That is what your shooting would have looked like if you did not change your POA between 5 shot groups.

    I think it is impressive. I don't really know what would be the standard by which to judge but I am thinking you might be limited by the ammo's ability. You are using ammo right out of the box with no sorting or sizing, right?

    Attachment 278904

    I am guessing that is a one inch circle and the 20 shot group is under a half inch.

    Tim
    WOW...dtknowles... I never thought about looking at the composite of a day's shooting like that. Crazy how we men look at things and each takes something different away from the same observation.
    Those 5 shot groups are deceiving, all on their own standing. That shows us instantly what that barrel is doing when the projectile exits the muzzle.

    Yes, it's Eley Match & it's right from the box & yes, it's a 1" circle.
    In my other thread of the 'Peep & Globe' I spent much time sorting in several different ways and didn't really want to repeat that exercise here with this rifle...thought I'd let the rifle & ammo stand on their own working together and concentrate on learning to use the tuner efficiently.
    Harry Tobin earlier today sent an e-mail asking the same thing...is that Eley Match doing all it can?
    Thank you for doing that Tim...you have opened my eyes and given me much to mull on.

    I have but one more test to do tomorrow before I decide to move over to the Eley tenex and start over with that...
    Here's today's shooting of the '0.5-19' tuner setting.
    Of all the days you might think the wind had something to do with the groups, this is the day...however the wind was calm...perfect day for shooting & I think I've gone too far from a possible node at the '0.5-20' setting, I want to see the '0.5-22' groups tomorrow and most likely that'll be the end of the Eley Match for a while?



    Seeing the warmer spot (the circled one) I almost said "forget this" as that was a most unusual start, especially compared to yesterday where the cold barrel first shot was almost in the same hole as the rest? Still haven't figured that one out.
    Anyway, I finished what I started and I think that I'm moving away from a node in this direction...

    Let me say again, if I haven't lately...but..."I so appreciate everyone's help in this thread, helping me as a shooter develope proper skills and all the examples/suggestions & questions posed...I think multiple brains connected are so much more powerful than just the one."
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  14. #54
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    dtknowles--That composite was an excellent idea. It gives a great idea of what he is doing currently.

    OS OK---- I think running some tenex through the rifle is a good idea. I would start with the node setting that is working best for the MATCH.
    I am also not certain you will se much improvement. Possibly a little but not a great change.
    I found Tenex to be better than the other ammo I have been trying but not by a large amount. Enough to use Tenex for matches and use the other ammo I have for practice.
    If you look at the target I use for competition Click image for larger version. 

Name:	ara-targets.jpg 
Views:	26 
Size:	50.6 KB 
ID:	278940, you can see the scoring areas. When I used Tenex, I shot a 2450.
    When I used a cheaper brand, I shot between 2250 and 2350. Not really much difference in group size or score for that matter. Just a couple of bullets cutting through a line instead of just touching it. We are talking less than a 16th of an inch in group size.
    Not really noticeable unless you are scoring.

  15. #55
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    dtknowles--That composite was an excellent idea. It gives a great idea of what he is doing currently.

    OS OK---- I think running some tenex through the rifle is a good idea. **I would start with the node setting that is working best for the MATCH.
    I am also not certain you will se much improvement. Possibly a little but not a great change.
    I found Tenex to be better than the other ammo I have been trying but not by a large amount. Enough to use Tenex for matches and use the other ammo I have for practice.
    If you look at the target I use for competition Click image for larger version. 

Name:	ara-targets.jpg 
Views:	26 
Size:	50.6 KB 
ID:	278940, you can see the scoring areas. When I used Tenex, I shot a 2450.
    When I used a cheaper brand, I shot between 2250 and 2350. Not really much difference in group size or score for that matter. Just a couple of bullets cutting through a line instead of just touching it. We are talking less than a 16th of an inch in group size.
    Not really noticeable unless you are scoring.
    **That is exactly my thought too ... This go-round, I'll get the chrono numbers at the same time & we can see whatever the difference is between speeds and compare the groups.

    What size are those circles in your target tazman ?
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  16. #56
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    13/16" outside to outside of the thick inner circle. 3/4" inside diameter.
    The unlimited target is 1/2" outside to outside of the thick inner ring.
    Touching the color outside the ring counts the lower score on both targets.
    Last edited by tazman; 03-04-2021 at 01:43 AM.

  17. #57
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    FWIW:

    I truly believe this is something that OS OK can sink his teeth into. Tuners are down right fun as is have a quality firearm to shoot the rimfire ammo in. If you get this rifle dialed in you'll open doors that will take your knowledge of rimfire ammo to the next level.

    That being said, I'm not being critical of what anyone is doing. Simply have a little bit of experience with rimfires in general along with being lucky enough to own a couple quality rimfire firearms. Spent a little $$$ on cases of ammo over a couple decades to feed them. Along with doing just enough reading/testing to be dangerous, be a legend in my own mind.

    What I'm seeing:
    A custom rifle that was built/designed to hold/hit .4" bulls @ 50yds and 1" bulls @ 100yds. FWIW, that anschutz I posted pictures above was designed for the same thing. Average anschutz 54 actioned target rifles will hold in the .4",s all day long. The better annies will do .3"'s. This is without a tuner.

    Long winded story:
    Back in 2006 I decided to do testing with a tuner, ordered 10/12 different lots of the same ammo (sk standard +) and tested them over a chronograph with a rifle that was a known performer. Never even bothered putting a target up, just the chronograph. Ended up finding a lot that had a es in the low teens and a es of 22fps/24fps (???? can't remember but it was in the low 20's) for the 50 shot box. Ordered a case of it for testing/dialing in firearms. At the same time sportsman's guide was getting in a bunch of russian 22lr ammo. Over on rimfirecenteral they were buying it and telling people how it preformed, 1 of them was the Vostok ammo. A bunch of people bought it and complained about lite fp hits and terrible accuracy. I ordered 2 cases of it ($80 a case?) because I wanted to test the fp hits on firearms with it along with owning 2 different russian olympic pistols (25m & 50m) that have no problem eating the Vostok like it was potato chips.

    That must of been 1 heck of a case of sk standard+ because I'm getting the same es's and sd's with it as you're getting with eley 10x.

    1st thing I did was test every rimfire firearm I owned that I used for competitions with that vostok ammo. Any issues with lite fp hits was corrected. And make no mistake about it, there were issues with several firearms. Started learning something from this.

    Got the kimber 82g and the tuner and the 1st thing I did was work on the trigger. Got it as good as the design would allow (others drilled new pivot holes for the trigger pin) without modifying the trigger group. From there I grabbed that sk+ test ammo and the chronograph and found out real fast the bolt/fp was trash. Ended up reworking the bolt & fp along with installing a new power custom spring (they just put them out) and life was good, sd's in the low teens and es's every now and then in the low 20's. Finely put a target up and went to work zeroing the scope (use burris sII 36x dots for everything, 4 of them) and working the new aftermarket allen wrench hold down screws. When the groups got tight and round and did a series of groups (50yd 5-shot) to use as a baseline. Then I put the tuner on and dialed it in. It would shoot in the .3"'s (4 5-shot groups) with eley black box.

    Same sk+ & Vostok ammo, this time I wanted to work on a CZ lux (1999/452 action). Same drill starting with the trigger. Then the bolt & finely accuracy. The trigger was the easy part, the bolt. Not so much!!! Machine marks everywhere, fp was out of round & the fp tip stuck out of the bolt face wayyyyy too long. Ended up doing a bunch of work on the bolt and internals including re-shaping the fp. The fp hits on your cz are the long traditional rectangular hits, my cz has a small round footprint that staying inside the edge of the rim.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    After getting that CZ's bolt/fp to hit consistently I put an old lyman 20x all-american on it because the CZ lux has a hogsback stock and a schwebel forend. The lyman scope is a long bodied scope that just cleared the rear sight and the 36mm bell allowed me to use lower rings. Put a set of aftermarket allen wrench hold down screws on and worked the torques until I got round groups. The groups were round but not tight like they should be. Looked at the chamber and found tooling marks on the leade so I touched the chamber up and the groups tightened up after that. Typical 5-shot groups @ 25yds
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Note that the top groups are open compared to the bottom groups. That's due to the wrong insert (towel) in the front rest trying to hold the schwebel front end still. This created different hold/pressure on the rear/stock when changing elevations when I moved the rear bag instead of the front rest. After getting that CZ lux dialed in I decided to take it to the 50yd line to do targets for a game on rimfirecenteral called the 10mm shoot. Where the shooter tried to shoot 4 5-shot groups on the same target that averaged 10mm. So I upped the quality of ammo sk pistol match and hit the range.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Here we go again, change elevation by moving the rear bag and it shows up on the target. Anyway I'm putting this out there because we are both using cz 452 actioned rifles. The difference between the 2:
    bbl's you have a custom bull I have a 24" pencil bbl
    scope you have a 40mm 36x target dot I have a 36mm 20x crosshair
    stock you have a br stock I have a hogs backed schwebel forend sporter stock
    ammo You are using eley 10x I am using 1/3rd the $$$ sk pistol match
    rest you use a 1 piece rest with a front rest shaped to your br stock I use a front rest with a towel and a sand bag for the rear
    The triggers should be even, only so much that can be done to them.

    As you can see were pretty much even rifle/rest wise

    The biggest difference is you're using a tuner and I have a re-worked bolt. If you take that overlay of your 5 5-shot groups and up it over the 4 5-shot groups I did. You will see there isn't much difference.

    https://youtu.be/hfd1Qsza4rc
    Yes this is a center fire rifle, but rimfire and centerfire 's are both affected by the vibration of the fp hit.

    You might consider using your google-fu and look up turbo actions and firing pin fall. Along with consistent ignition with rimfire ammo.

    Anyway just my 2 cents, take it for what it's worth (nothing), just want you to do well.

  18. #58
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    OMG Forrest r... I can't tell you how much I appreciate information like this being a Neophyte in this arena...(Even if you did just dig my RABBIT'HOLE about 30 foot deeper!)
    I will have to search out some of the terms you use to describe your experience & equipment to fully understand the weight in this posting. I will have to cypher all those measurements on your targets to understand the meaning of the computations...as you have seen, I am only capable of measuring with a steel rule & have only been looking at the spread of the group alone...I don't understand all the computations involved in competition.

    Until today the CZ has had only Eley Match in the bore...there's one last test with that at the '0.5-22' setting and then I'll swap over to the Eley tenex for a comparison of one of the better groupings/tuner settings with the Match. Then it'll be a better organized look & testing of the tenex in this CZ.
    First off I'll get a comparison of the numbers from the chrony as I did here...





    As you can see, the first column of numbers come from the warmer 5-shot group & the very first cold barrel shot was the highest of all the columns, I can't explain that but think it may be from a cold & non lubed barrel (or a barrel lubed from the day before and it changes lubricity overnight?)...I haven't a clue as of yet....?

    Many of the things about the mechanical work you have done, I am not capable of & since I haven't heard from the previous owner about all the particulars of this CZ build, all that sorta manipulation of the platform is on hold.

    Thanks again Forrest r ... you have my mind a'buzzin!
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  19. #59
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Forgot to toss in there the pillar bedding while working on the bolts.

    The #'s are what they like to do over on rimfirecenteral. Shoot groups and measure the outside measurements. Then take 4 shots and measure the holes + fouling marks on the paper. Add those 4 shots together and divide by 4 to get a bullet hole #. Typically a 22lr bullet will leave a +/- .204" hole+ marks on a target. Subtract .204" from the outside to outside measurement of the group to get the actual hole size the bullets made in the target.

    Myself I like plain old outside to outside measurements. When I say a rifle shot in the .3"'s that means the outside to outside measurement of the 5-shot groups were .3xx" or less. When keeping score on bullseye targets I always like a rimfire firearm that could keep groups smaller then the x-ring/10-ring.

    At the end of the day, those are the firearms that win. It could be argued that the bull is .4" on a f-class 50m target add .204" + .204" to that. The bullet only need to touch the line and you get .808" with the bull + touching @ 12 o-clock & 6 o-clock (etc). Anyone with a 10-22 and a box of wal-mart bulk pack can shoot .8" groups @ 50m. But for some odd reason they don't do very well when they start keeping score.

    You're close, real close with your setup. Without the fliers you'd be running in the low .4's/high .3's. The 1st shot fliers could be a lot of things including the receiver re-settling in bedding. Bbl on a little to tight.

    My $$$ is on the fp either sticking or a combo of being gummed up with fouling and too much oil/grease. I understand that the chronograph #'s you wrote down really isn't a lot to go by, wish you would of been doing them all along. Everyone sees something different, I see that except for the 4th set of numbers the pretty much increased in velocity as the shots progressed. Is that the extreme high shot is next to the extreme low shot for 1, 2 ,3 (actually 1fps difference in the highest #) & 5.

    You might consider stripping the bolt down and giving it a good cleaning along with taking a black marker and coloring the fp to see where it rides/rubs. Myself I like to use this on all my bolts, sears, trigger groups.
    https://www.bing.com/aclk?ld=e8N3Ohw...5cce73abbbe75d

    I really hope you get it sorted out. A quality rifle like that combined with a tuner is a blast when everything is dialed in. Played around with a lot of bulk pack blammo ammo with that kimber/tuner combo. Way too much fun!!! Everything you stuff in your rifle doesn't have to be high $$$ ammo.

  20. #60
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Forrest r... Thanks for the explanations, I appreciate that & the tips for the lube and the fp assy.
    I remembered you mentioning the bolt face being smoothed from machine marks on your platforms so I had a look this morning and found that mine looks like the machine marks have been sanded smooth, still can see where they were raised but they're smooth.



    Amazing how dirty these rifles can get, I never notice using them everyday outside and storing them under a towel in the wood shop, this looks a mess up close like this. Oh well...I'm not a neat freak/clean freak heheee, you ought'a see my truck, getting too old to worry about such things.

    As far as measurements go, I don't think we need them in this thread unless someone is curious and they have a program to measure with and they can measure for themselves...we can see a good group and a not so good and so on, nobody's getting no trophies in this thread.

    About today's work... I've changed the shots from horizontal to vertical to use more of the grids before having to make a new page.

    Here is the last set of Eley Match rounds compared to the first set of the Eley tenex, both shot at the same tuner setting. Just wanted to compare apples to apples as far as the speed of the round is concerned.
    There is an average of 10.4 fps difference between the two, the tenex is that much faster & quite a difference in groups considering only that minimal average fps difference. Just imagine what that difference in fps between shots must be doing within the same groups, same ammo. It's like Forrest r points out in the shot strings & shot placement, it doesn't always correlate in high and low hits...I think it all depends on where that muzzle is pointing at that instant when the round exits, not only does the tuner tune the barrel but we as shooters are part of that tuning as we are part of the dampening of the rifle by the way we embrace the rifle too.
    How the heck do we figure out where the muzzle is, whether it's in a vertical or horizontal part of it's oscillation? I can't answer that?



    I think I see the E. Match opening up compared to the '0.5-20' setting from the other day.
    I think I see a better lot of ammo in the cheaper Eley Match also, it being $14.50 box compared to Eley tenex at $18.50 ... Forrest r, I think your right about performance of less expensive ammo. What's the difference in the quality of our practice we get shooting either one so long as we are squeezing the best from whatever ammo we use? After all, we have to do our parts behind the stock to make any ammo perform at is it's best.

    Notice the group @ C/G ... notice the two left separated a little bit by the 3 right hits. I was watching the chrono as these rounds were fired, the first shot landed extreme right, next two shots landed extreme left & together, then the last two shots land with the first one. If you look at the chrony recordings you'll see that the two left are at 1092 fps and the three right are at 1085, 1084 & 1084 fps. I thought that was something notable...what it exactly means I'm not sure yet? I'm just paying attention to the little details so hopefully all this work will pay dividends one day in my understanding this mystery of the .22lr's.



    I've been noticing lately how loading a few pounds of pressure against the butt of the rifle can make the group open slightly if that pressure is not going into the butt straight with the LOS, pushing slightly & straight towards the target...if I'm correcting the cross-hairs for even a smidge of windage using my shoulder, I don't get better groups & the rifle shows some sideways deflection in the scope as it's fired. I have to be aware of 'not adding windage' with my shoulder, have to relax that push and see that the cross-hairs are lined up vertically instead before loading those couple pounds of pressure.
    Last edited by OS OK; 03-05-2021 at 03:32 AM.
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check