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Thread: New to using a 'F-CLASS BR' at 50 yards...

  1. #541
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
    Ya, you're absolutely getting inconsistent ignition!!!

    You have the typical cz garbage bolt assy. I can't believe that you've been shooting that rifle for 4 months now looking at the fp hits on those cases and think that that's normal.

    Understanding what you're reading is important, re-read what you posted from your book. The key things to look for:
    Bullet engraving
    Case sitting against the bolt face
    Check for extractor issues by taking the extractor out if you think you're having issues with it

    Did you bother to take the bolt out of the rifle and put a bullet in the bolt face and hold the bolt out vertically??? Did the bullet stay in place??? Does the alignment look strait or is the bullet canted????
    These are the last cases after working on the bolt, clear & close up pictures. Why don't you post pictures of the same quality and point out exactly what your talking about?



    I did read the book and this is what I read...seems to match what I have here. That case will be pushed against the bolt face from the projectile engraving into the lands. The extractor moves under that spring clip very easily...I know, I pushed the rim against the extractor for the photos above and they snapped over the rim with ease.



    I don't think I have any extractor issues. I never said that I thought so...
    You can see plainly here that the extractor will not hold the bullet tight against the face.



    Forrest r... Let me give you some timely/friendly advice.
    I do appreciate your input into this thread...BUT...I do not appreciate your talking to me like I'm some kind of moron. I resent that and have tolerated it up until this last post of yours.
    I suggest you try a friendlier/more civil approach or as far as I am concerned you can just go insult others on their threads, NOT HERE...NOT ANYMORE!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  2. #542
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    I keep saying the same thing over and over and it keeps falling of deaf ears. And then I keep getting asked what's happening or what is wrong or what do I see. I've posted the same picture 10+ times of a correct fp hit.

    Where your at:
    I have no idea why on gods green earth you think "extractor will not hold the bullet tight against the face". Your words not mine.

    Where I'm at:
    Last I knew the extractor was not put there to hold anything. If I were a gambling man I'd bet it was there to take something out. Just a guess but with a name like "extractor", it ain't there to hold anything in.

    Actually I'm the 1 that has tolerated things to long with constant repeats of the same thing. Should of quit posting a long time ago.

    Good luck & enjoy

  3. #543
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
    I keep saying the same thing over and over and it keeps falling of deaf ears. And then I keep getting asked what's happening or what is wrong or what do I see. I've posted the same picture 10+ times of a correct fp hit.

    Where your at:
    I have no idea why on gods green earth you think "extractor will not hold the bullet tight against the face". Your words not mine.

    Where I'm at:
    Last I knew the extractor was not put there to hold anything. If I were a gambling man I'd bet it was there to take something out. Just a guess but with a name like "extractor", it ain't there to hold anything in.

    Actually I'm the 1 that has tolerated things to long with constant repeats of the same thing. Should of quit posting a long time ago.

    Good luck & enjoy

    Thank you very much Forrest r, I appreciate your timely EXIT !


    tazman... I apologize for not enduring his caustic posts and heeding your advise but...I've had enough...no more condescending post from him...no matter what we may think he knows!
    There will be others in the future who take part, chime in and are able to converse in an unpretentious manner.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  4. #544
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Went out this morning pretty excited to just shoot a Green Monster Card with this new batch of Eley Match (no data gathering, just having fun)...used the 'supposed node' I found with the old batch that ran out.



    tazman... this was with a clean swabbed & dried chamber and 170 shots through the 'seasoned' (dirty ) barrel. I know you are in the clean-camp but look how the warmer target went...that's the typical 5 shots. I wonder if this will happen again?

    This is a tough little practice target, look at the size of the 9 ring... 9/32" or about .281", the hole in the life savers is .285" (I think?) I should have been playing that game, I might have shot through the hole on the 3'rd target. Prolly won't happen again for a month!

    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  5. #545
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I like what you have going here. Looking good.

    I am in the cleaning camp for now. Not sure how long that will last. I am looking for repeatable results. I haven't been getting a lot of that lately. At least, none that I like.
    I will try letting the barrel "season" in the future and see where that leads.

    I have a fairly large quantity of the new Eley Match so I can experiment some. You never know what you will get until you try.
    I have a few thoughts I want to try out before I discuss them. A couple of them sound a bit silly, even to me. I am going to try them and see what I get. If they are viable, I will report results in detail. If they fail, it depends on how bad they fail whether I mention them or not. This may take some time due to the way things are going right now.
    We shall see.

  6. #546
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    I like what you have going here. Looking good.

    I am in the cleaning camp for now. Not sure how long that will last. I am looking for repeatable results. I haven't been getting a lot of that lately. At least, none that I like.
    I will try letting the barrel "season" in the future and see where that leads.

    I have a fairly large quantity of the new Eley Match so I can experiment some. You never know what you will get until you try.
    I have a few thoughts I want to try out before I discuss them. A couple of them sound a bit silly, even to me. I am going to try them and see what I get. If they are viable, I will report results in detail. If they fail, it depends on how bad they fail whether I mention them or not. This may take some time due to the way things are going right now.
    We shall see.
    Have you had a chance to run the new lot of Match through the Crony yet?
    I have and I am still getting higher than 'Eley tested fps' ... I don't have any answers about that, just mulling it over but I'm curious if you have?
    So many testimonials out there in both camps of 'clean or dirty' and how long it lasts but the thing I've been thinking about most is those 15 or 20 shots to get the barrel to re-season...I know I don't have to mention the expense of that to you, we've been buying the same stuff...it ain't cheap ammo.

    I think that warmer group I shot today may have been just happenstance for some reason(s)...well see about that as the practice sessions go by but...it was a little astonishing to me since I've been tracking how the bore shoots in on the warmer target for some time now. This was out of the ordinary.

    Don't think your ideas may be silly...the silly is the idea you never try, sorta like the question never asked.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  7. #547
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    OS, is there any way you can check whether or not the extractors lift away from the case once the bolt is locked? I would imagine that they cam outwards in the extractor cut outs on the breach face.

    My Remington bolt holds the case firmly against the bolt face. Hopefully they cam free of the cases on bolt locking.
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  8. #548
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    OS OK------ I ran the new lot of match ammo through my rifles when I did the testing on Monday. Post number 528. They were the last lot tested in each rifle. Marked Match (1064), the 1064 being the advertised velocity.
    They were significantly higher in velocity than advertised. 40-50 fps faster.

    The only lot that tested at the advertised velocity was the one I purchased last year about August.
    All the lots purchased this year tested high. In my MTR, the new lots of Match tested right at the speed of sound.

    It is a bummer buying ammo listed as 1064 fps and it ending up being right at sonic speed.

    303 guy---The way the cuts are made in the barrel, the extractors should cam away from the case with no problem.
    I don't have my rifle in front of me at the moment, but I believe that area may not be readily visible while closing the bolt.
    I will need to check.
    Last edited by tazman; 06-24-2021 at 06:18 AM.

  9. #549
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    303Guy... Yes you can see the taper of the cut next to the chamber here...



    If you pay attention between the edge of the receiver and the retaining clip on the bolt you can see that the clip expands out from the extractor being forced away from the chamber as it contacts the angle cut and moves forward......

    Bolt is closed to the barrel but not cam'd over...



    Bolt is cam'd and the bolt has moved forward by the camming by aprox. 3/32" (?), see the space is reduced between the clip and the side of the receiver...that clip has been forced open/wider...from the extractor moving outward from the chamber...



    tazman... Oh crap...I remember that now...sorry, there's so much going on in this thread & in my head, I forget these things.

    What worries me most (well...not worry, bad choice of words, it concerns me), not having any reference material on the (what I call) 'zone of pressure influence, the building or diminishing wave' that exists from .82 Mach through 1.3 Mach, is... just how much influence that pressure wave actually exerts on the different shapes of the .22 slug's nose. How does the RN or RNF react to a building pressure wave that is moving from the nose of the projectile towards the rear? Or vise versa as the speed diminishes in that distance to the target. That wave (in my mind) is dynamic not static, ever changing fore and aft, ever changing it's influence on the pill.
    We know that the projectile is influenced by that wave but how much influence is within the barrel before it exits and how does that pressure wave change when the projectile just clears the muzzle and at the same time getting kicked in the base by the escaping gasses? I've found lots of shadow graphs (pictures) of projectiles 'in flight' at various speeds but even then, none are about the little 40 grain .22lr pill, all are HV rifle or cannon rounds.
    It is not as simple as thinking of ripples in a pond from a pebble entering a smooth surface, here there are two waves in this shadow-graph and varying pressures fore to aft against the projectile, even in between those waves...staggers the mind to comprehend...



    When the projectile clears the muzzle it has prolly 2 ~ 3,000 PSI of hot gasses on it's rear end but within a microsecond that pressure goes negative to the ambient air pressure....a tremendous instantaneous change.

    For a long time now, I've had the idea that for a 50 yard rifle, a 42 grain RN at less than 900 fps would be just dandy...it would be safely under the lower side of the pressure wave at .82 Mach and handle the wind better too? I don't know, just spitwadding on the fly... ...perhaps if this were so, they'd already be using them!

    The more you think about this the longer the list of questions you develop. I'll bet you that these top brand ammo manufacturers have this information tucked away in a safe somewhere and refuse to share it because of their competition.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  10. #550
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I've been wondering why 22 ammo makers sometimes use a sharp stepped boolit nose. Is it to force the bow wave away from the drive band or to force a shock wave on the drive band shoulder to keep the flow clean over the rest of the boolit? Or something. It could also be to keep the unsupported nose mass closer to the center line where it will have less effect. Anyway, a thought occurred to me to make a nose punch to put a annular dimple on the nose to form something similar to the tenex nose. I actually have a nose pour boolit mold that does that and I wondered whether it would be beneficial. Anyway, just rambling thoughts.

    So OS, it's quite obvious there is no extractor interference with the case as expected, just by looking at the breach face. I didn't realize the spring clip would show it though.

    22 boolit shadowgraph I believe.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...hadowgraph.jpg


    If I understand the copyright correctly this image is allowed to be used for educational purposes but not commercial so I hope it's Ok to post the actual image.
    This photograph was not created by NASA - it was made by me, Prof. Andrew Davidhazy, and I retain copyright but allow usage for educational purposes. Commercial use strictly forbidden without permission.
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  11. #551
    Boolit Grand Master
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    I have always admired competitive shooters that do the kind of work you guys are doing. There is so much to learn to get "REALLY" good.

    Two days ago I took out my old 10/22. Wind was 7-12 mph and quartering. I have a low end 3-9 Bushnell on it...no idea of the model but at least 20 years old. Ammunition was Federal Auto Match that cost $19 a box (325 rounds) pre pandemic. I fired 16 groups of 5 shots and averaged just under 1" at 50 yards. Looking at what you guys can do, that is pathetic. But I had fun doing it...got pumped up when I had a few good groups (well good for me LOL) in the .6-.8 range. So I understand your quest!!!

    I might do some more ammunition testing but I am OK with that level of 'performance'. For controlling chipmunks and ground squirrels it is good enough, and a miss is not the end of the world. Most of my shots are 50 yards or less off my front porch. My buddy gave me two bricks of Lapua when he got out of Bullseye shooting, and I have some Federal Gold Medal and Wolf Match....but I fear going down that rabbit hole. Good .22 ammunition has never been cheap. I am too cheap to have fun using .22's at $15-20/50. At that point, I may as well shoot .223 reloads that are MOA or better to 200 yards.

    Yesterday I had numerous problems with my PCP .22 and ended up having to send it back to Airguns of Arizona...BTW, great folks to do business with!! I ended up buying another .22 PCP and it should arrive next week. I am leaning on NSB for help on the PCP front.

    Was going to update the thread I started months ago on PCP but cannot find it. I will look a bit longer for it or just start another one. I still hold out hope that PCP's will give me the fun factor, accuracy and cost point I desire.

    I keep reading this thread and have learned a lot. Like I said...admire your tenacity and it is good to see you are having fun and making progress.
    Don Verna


  12. #552
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    OS--- I have to think that the top manufacturers(Eley-LAPUA-RWS-and others) would make match ammunition at lower velocities for rifles if it was consistently more accurate. In that picture you posted, the second wave seems to be located at a cannelure ring on the side of the bullet. I wonder what the shadow image of a match grade boattail hollow point would look like since it has no cannelure. Remember the old Speer/Lapua that had the stepped boattail? That one might be interesting as well. Similar in some respects to a heeled boolit like we use in 22lr.
    There are trade offs to the velocity selected for 22lr ammunition. Longer time in flight to the target allows more wind drift. Too much velocity and you have sonic disturbance. These are just a couple of considerations.
    I don't have the knowledge to make a judgement.
    The only remark I CAN make is, I wish the manufacturers produced ammunition that actually runs at the advertised speeds.
    I wanted to test some ammunition that had lower velocities than the first lot I purchased and thought I had done so. It turns out, the ammunition went the other way velocity wise. I am now at a loss to figure out what to try next as far as ammunition goes.
    Perhaps some of the other brands of top end ammo will become available and I will be able to test them and see how things go.

    Dverna--- Thank you for your post and support. It's nice to have someone else appreciate what we are trying to accomplish here. I wish I could help with your PCP but I have neither knowledge or experience with that type of rifle.

  13. #553
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Morning all...

    303Guy... I am not sure I am ready to postulate on your questions as I am grossly unqualified to consider the topic...BUT...the good part, thanks to you comes from the picture/shadow-graph you published. That gave me a better edge in finding information on this subject. Thanks Pard!
    Here's some of what I found...this is right down our alley in this thread...
    Long Range Shooting: External Ballistics – The Transonic Region
    https://thearmsguide.com/5348/long-r...nsonic-region/
    from that thread, links within, we can go even deeper (just one of many links in these articles)...
    Long Range Shooting: External Ballistics – Bullet Shape
    https://thearmsguide.com/5341/long-r...-bullet-shape/

    dverna... Thank you for your kind words...tazman is the competitor here, I'm in it for the education and the opportunity to polish up my skills as I better understand all the dynamics of this thing we do...'trying to punch that 'X' on a more regular basis'.

    tazman... I've only been online and researching for a couple hours this morning, got caught up reading into the articles posted above...I think we just hit the 'graduates course for newbies' in this subject. Check the articles and please post links you find as you dig in farther. This author has a great way of talking to us 'non-scientific types', does not clutter his articles with 50¢ words and such...I like the way he writes.

    Haven't found the picture you ask for, I remember the projectile well...this is as close as I can find so that you might see what you expect to see (however, this projectile does have some type of cannelure or maybe just the jacket deformed a bit from taper when it was seated?



    You can see a secondary ring of pressure formed there, without the deformed jacket (?) I don't think we'd see that.
    Not sure whether this shadow-graph has been published here yet so here it is...I would like to see a high speed shadow-graph with many frames added in as the bullet speed drops back through the transonic zone...I'm sure we'd see where the center of pressure starts acting on the longer projectiles, lifting their noses and starting the tumble.




    There are pressure waves in some of these pictures that don't show well without playing with the shadow-graph's light/dark/etc. in the photo-shop.

    You said..."I wish the manufacturers produced ammunition that actually runs at the advertised speeds." ... That made me wonder what type of chamber, what the dimensions are in their test barrels. In our tight custom chambers there is little room for the brass to be expanded out to seal the chamber, therefore we should use less energy for sealing and have it left over to propel the projectile faster.
    I would think...in a standard commercial chamber (much looser/larger ID") we'd use much more energy expanding the brass case to seal the chamber and we should see less velocity because that energy is not available now to propel the pill. Just spitwadding again! I have an idea that testing this 'theory' with same length barrels in two rifles, one with a custom chamber and one with a commercial chamber we would be able to see a lower velocity from the latter...more closely matching Eley's number?

    About yesterday's practice...
    Late in the afternoon the wind was perfect as we had some storm clouds moving overhead up into the Sierras...things got very still.
    I thought I might as well get started on my search for a nice & wide node. I continued from where I left off the other day at the 0.0-25 setting. In the future I am listing these settings the same as I would call out a micrometer reading, it just makes more sense.
    So....starting at .025" and shooting through .050", here's what I got...



    What I think I see here is that the settings from .033" ~ .039" are almost NOT moving from a 2-shot group/setting to the next. I think this is an indicator of that 'wide node' I have been talking about?
    You can see that there is considerable movement in the barrels POA/POI on settings from .043" ~ .050" where the search ended. It looks like that barrel is starting to go through some wild gyrations with that tuner weight being extended out as far as it is.

    Well, that's what I'm thinking until I can go back to these settings with 5-shot testing so we can see what the groupings actually look like.
    Might be able to get it done today but as of now the wind has not 'stilled' yet.
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  14. #554
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    OS OK Quote===You said..."I wish the manufacturers produced ammunition that actually runs at the advertised speeds." ... That made me wonder what type of chamber, what the dimensions are in their test barrels. In our tight custom chambers there is little room for the brass to be expanded out to seal the chamber, therefore we should use less energy for sealing and have it left over to propel the projectile faster.
    I would think...in a standard commercial chamber (much looser/larger ID") we'd use much more energy expanding the brass case to seal the chamber and we should see less velocity because that energy is not available now to propel the pill. Just spitwadding again! I have an idea that testing this 'theory' with same length barrels in two rifles, one with a custom chamber and one with a commercial chamber we would be able to see a lower velocity from the latter...more closely matching Eley's number? End quote.

    I actually did that test when I did the chronograph tests. All three of those rifles have the same barrel length. Only the MTR has a match chamber. The other two rifles have standard chambers.
    The numbers would tend to support your theory since the velocities were less in both rifles compared to the MTR.
    This is as close to a lab type test as I can get. You would need a larger sample of rifles to confirm but it does show tendencies.
    Unfortunately, the velocities were still very much above Eley's stated velocities for those lots, while the older lot was right on the advertised velocity.

    I agree with your thoughts about the possible wide node. That string of settings leaped out at me because of the location and group size. Well worth testing further.
    Last edited by tazman; 06-25-2021 at 12:00 PM.

  15. #555
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    It started out... a pretty decent morning for Proofing Groups...not a cloud in the sky, in the direct sunlight it got pretty warm so there's a mirage to deal with but in the shade of the umbrella it remained pretty cool...



    but that changed fairly quickly. You will see wind notations on the target and they pretty much stand for the target they are noted on and the following targets until another wind notation shows up...it was a bit variable but not so bad that these groups are meaningless...

    A side by side so we can see a relationship between the suspected 2-shot nodes & the 5-shot proofs...



    This was the series I decided to try this morning, they are underlined...



    And finally a close up of the results today.



    It looks like .039" may be the node, it has the best conformity of width and height for the central grouping...but I want to look at it again in a true '0-wind' morning, .040" ~ .043" prolly should be looked at too before working any farther out on the tuner.
    I think that the barrel may be starting it's wild gyration somewhere around .044" where it slingshots out up and right.

    With 337 shots total on this barrel since it has been cleaned with a single wet swab and dried, I am going to clean again before starting any more proofs. This should be about the time where I will gradually see things start to open.

    What do you guys read in this?
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  16. #556
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    OS, that is looking very good. I would have thought .34/.35 was the node. Or another node anyway.

    On velocity not being what is claimed it should be, I have two rifles - 303 Brits. Same load in each rifle and one produces considerably higher pressure. The difference is in the throat, bore and chamber. I don't think it's so much a larger bore taking more energy to expand the case but rather, the larger chamber lowers the pressure by giving more volume. Then there is free bore/large throat volume with less initial resistance plus a larger bore. With a 22, I would think it's simply the larger chamber volume. Remember too that a larger chamber gives more room for the crimp to expand into so maybe there is just more crimp grip in a tight chamber?

    I do know that my 512 produces the claimed velocity of CCI sub-sonics, that being 1050 fps. Although, that cool evening I was getting quite a varied sonic crack so velocity must have been varying. I would have thought Eley would be measuring their target ammo in a target barrel but I suppose those can vary too. OS, how tight is your rifle's bore? I have two rifle barrels that are tight enough for a 22 air rifle pellet. That's to say, the head rides the lands. I wonder whether that would raise pressure and velocity?
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  17. #557
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    OS, that is looking very good. I would have thought .34/.35 was the node. Or another node anyway.

    On velocity not being what is claimed it should be, I have two rifles - 303 Brits. Same load in each rifle and one produces considerably higher pressure. The difference is in the throat, bore and chamber. I don't think it's so much a larger bore taking more energy to expand the case but rather, the larger chamber lowers the pressure by giving more volume. Then there is free bore/large throat volume with less initial resistance plus a larger bore. With a 22, I would think it's simply the larger chamber volume. Remember too that a larger chamber gives more room for the crimp to expand into so maybe there is just more crimp grip in a tight chamber?

    I do know that my 512 produces the claimed velocity of CCI sub-sonics, that being 1050 fps. Although, that cool evening I was getting quite a varied sonic crack so velocity must have been varying. I would have thought Eley would be measuring their target ammo in a target barrel but I suppose those can vary too. OS, how tight is your rifle's bore? I have two rifle barrels that are tight enough for a 22 air rifle pellet. That's to say, the head rides the lands. I wonder whether that would raise pressure and velocity?
    That I can't say...don't know. What I do know is that when I push a patch from breech to muzzle it pushes smooth and even and there is no tight spots.
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  18. #558
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I just checked the site where we get our Eley ammo and they have Tenex and Match in stock for rifles.
    For the sake of experimenting, I ordered a few boxes of the slowest rated ammo they had. It was listed at 1043fps. It will be interesting to see how it performs.

  19. #559
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I am not a fan of cleaning the bore... after every practice session, at the current time I like shooting the 'seasoned-dirty bore' because I think (?) it is more predictable...errrr...tends to group sooner than a clean bore. (less expense in getting 'seasoned' again...)
    But...since this morning was the time for cleaning after reaching 337 consecutive shots (don't really know if that's the accuracy limit on this barrel, I've gone farther) but since I was going to clean, I thought I should get a 'cleaning routine' going...thinking that tazman just may be right about his 'predictable barrel'.

    I used one of these Tipton cleaning pellets soaked in Hoppes #9, started scrubbing from the chamber back and fourth about 8 inches at a time advancing to the muzzle, then a few full strokes back and fourth and pulled the pellet out. I followed that with 2 dry patches shoved chamber to muzzle and called it good.
    I think this doesn't clean down to bare steel, just removes caked up carbon gunk. I think of it as a 50% cleaning job. If I should fall into tazman's camp about doing a cleaning each time I shoot, I want to have a repeatable routine that I am used to.



    Notice how the warmers strung out (top left spot in the yellow highlighted area) & then it jumped right in to two nice groupings (next two spots top row to the right), that had me taking notice & thinking about tazman's theory until I got down to the next row of spots and it got jumpy again for the first three spots...then bango!...it goes right back into nice little groups?
    I hardly think this is data enough to prove anything but this one time it took 30 rounds to get that barrel seasoned with this cleaning routine.



    I started this morning using the .039" tuner setting to compare it to yesterdays work, I suspected that may be a good node and I think now it just may well be, so I'm keeping that adjustment in mind for the future.
    The picture above is a cutout of this next picture where I was comparing the .039" tuner setting from the day before to today's work...



    Next was to look at the .040" ~ .042" with the 5-shot groups. Now I am thinking that this area of the tuner is in fact a 'wide node area'. There is little differences in the groupings if you keep in mind all the other factors that affect a tidy little group...wind today is what I think may be the primary factor making some of these groups have a straggler hanging out the side of it. Straggler meaning a flier that doesn't make it out of the group but makes the group look ugly and out of ideal shape.



    I have this idea... uhhh, 'theory' working in my head that finding just one tuner setting and running with that may be a mistake. What about the different conditions we encounter each session? What about the ambient temperature where your ammo is located on the bench...hopefully, it's out of the direct sunlight because we have seen over and over again that there is about a minimum of +20ºƒ difference in temperatures in the shade and out on the sun lit bench. Maybe...just maybe that temperature difference is one that can be overcome by using a series of what I've been calling tuner 'wide nodes'?
    Hotter ammunition tends to shoot faster, perhaps a node setting up or down from your favorite setting will accommodate this change?
    Those of you that compete may experience your barrels heating up from your equipment being out in the sunlight as you go from station to station in some of these contest where your shooting from many different locations and types of rests?

    I guess what I'm postulating here is that... "If in fact, there is such a thing as a 'wide node area of tuner settings'...all next to each other as we are starting to see here from .039" ~ .042" they will be useful. That is if we can get to a point in the future where we can better define the limits of an 'individual tuner setting' by 'ambient conditions' that affect the speed of our ammo."
    After all, the tuner defines how the barrel will oscillate to the harmonics applied, it's purpose is to keep that muzzle's POI the same as your POA. Given good conditions where shooting indoors, where the ambient conditions have much less affect, the tuner does very well. They have proven this over and over and the tuners are selling and the customers who learn how to use them keep them on the end of the barrel.
    All this is well and fine until 'ambient conditions' change...when the speed of the ammo changes it is coming out of the muzzle 'sooner & later' than when that muzzle's POI is agreeing with your POA. (I hope I said that right, sometimes I think I say things that are already straight in my head and may not be the same in yours)
    By changing to a node next to the one you use, either longer or shorter length of the tuner...I think we can change the oscillations of the barrel by a fraction and get that muzzle's POI back in agreement to your POA. Your POA is the only thing that doesn't change...if your form & execution is good...it is that muzzle that needs adjustment.

    I could go on and on about what I think about this but being the Neophyte here I have to teach myself and learn things about this tuner and all the other dynamics of shooting...as you have seen, we don't have any X Champion .22lr BR shooters in this thread spilling his guts on all the inside information they have accumulated...I think this is unfortunate.
    I say that because I don't give a hoot about who gets all the trophies and admiration from the fan boys out there...all that matters to me is having the opportunity & ability to get out on the line and discover, learn and share as I get more proficient day by day. In my opinion, finding satisfaction in self improvement and having a good time with your favorite hobby is the ultimate 'bottom line'...it is the accomplishment.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  20. #560
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Just a thought on cleaning. Some times I just run a single dry patch through the barrel to sort of "smooth out the bumps" and remove any powder residue or dust that may have accumulated in the barrel without doing a full chemical cleaning. I do this when I am going to be shooting the same ammunition that was previously used in the rifle.
    This method doesn't seem to take long to begin grouping since it doesn't remove all the seasoning from the barrel. Since I shoot different brands of ammo with different types of lube for testing purposes, I need to clean more often to keep a consistent seasoning than I would if all I shot in that barrel was a single brand/lot of ammo from a single manufacturer.

    I believe your thoughts on the optimum tuner setting changing due to external circumstances such as temperature is correct. Accumulating the necessary information on this will obviously be a long, expensive, and highly detailed process. You will need to shoot and record tests in as many different conditions as possible to get the necessary information.
    The "wide node" pattern, assuming you can locate one definitively, would hopefully be a key component in this. The tuner changes due to external changes may all be near each other provided the external changes are not that great. I have no information to support that however.
    Spitballing as usual.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check