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Thread: New to using a 'F-CLASS BR' at 50 yards...

  1. #441
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I was wondering about that. So this happens even if you run a patch through it immediately before firing? How long does it need to stand before it does that again?
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  2. #442
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    taz... Are your out of group first shots predictable, to where you could use Kentucky wind-age to score a head shot?

    Mine pretty much are but I haven't tried to get the first shot into where the rest will fall. Prolly could get at least an 8 score doing that...me thinks?

    If I went out Squirreling I'd rather have my little Win 67A anyway...super light weight & full size and full of nostalgia from my youth.
    At 25 yards or less I think I could get my share of those pesky lil'Buggers.



    I don't think we ever came up with the 'why' of that errant shot? Today, looking back...I rather think it's the dried overnight paraffin in the bore. Just that one first shot has the barrel conditioned...that's the part that puzzles me.

    I know I sure wouldn't like to carry the CZ into the woods and the MKII is almost as heavy.

    303Guy... Since it is claimed that we are tickling that pressure wave anywhere from .82 ~ 1.3 Mach I still think that the higher velocity of the ES's get right in there. Too many times I've had errant POI's that were sent downrange good and proper from my part...just for no reason high and left, right out of the blue, right in the middle of a warm barrel & going at a series of targets...
    Just the other day I had 3 of these 'how come it did that's'...circled in red on the left. On two separate tuner settings. I was just banging away and suddenly 'wham-out in left field'!



    Tell'Ya one thing boys...
    I can't wait to get that bore scope...I have about a million questions about that chamber and bore!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  3. #443
    Boolit Master
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    Carry on but this is getting pretty boring now.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  4. #444
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    You realize of course that you won't sleep for a week from the shock of a closeup of the bore!

    Mind you, your guns bores would likely look pretty good. You'd be shocked to see my dad's Mauser bore. Even with the naked eye it looks terrible. Rust damage.

    Your 67 bears a resemblance to my Slazengers. It looks like the 67 has a one piece barrel and action. Hard to tell from the photo. Anyway, the Slazenger has a one piece construction. None of them want to fire most of the time. Need new firing pin springs. But the lightness and fairly smallness is awesome. I cut down one for my great nephew. Awesome little gun. We used to try pry it from his hands (without much luck). It even took a feral piglet once.

    This one does fire on every shot and is rather accurate.



    But I digress. I've speculated this before - could that be a lube purge flyer? It doesn't seem likely. That's when chronographing each and every shot would be handy but who really wants to do that? I suppose one could have the chrono running and only look at the flyer velocity when they occur. I've mentioned that I did a test with my 510, cleaning the bore then going out to the the range. First shot was on target. Then again, the 510 doesn't have a match chamber.

    I had one instance in which the round didn't chamber, having lain skew on the feed ramp. I fiddle with it until it went in but there was some resistance so I was expecting a flyer and it did. Is it in any way possible that a boolit gets damaged on chambering? I took to feeding them into the chamber rather than just laying them on the feeder.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  5. #445
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    As far as hunting goes, I have other rifles for that. I have an old Winchester 72a that puts all rounds in the same group no matter the brand or bullet weight at 25 yards. The groups is just way too big for benchrest shooting. Fine for squirrels though.

    I don't know if that first round is accurately predictable of not. I haven't done enough testing yet. Much remains to be looked at. Not terribly important, since I am expecting it. I can always fire that cold bore shot into the berm if needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    Carry on but this is getting pretty boring now.

    Tim
    It always gets boring when you have your own system figured out and you are listening to someone else's issues. I understand that.
    Not a problem.
    We will continue down the rabbit hole with whoever wants to share it.

  6. #446
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    FWIW:
    It's been my experience that lube issues/1st shot fliers tend to be high left. Bullets that go transonic just before the target tend to go high right.

    I have an old (1958?) anschutz full stock that I've used for squirrel hunting for decades. Has a weaver v3 post reticle scope on it. Light weight & extremely accurate, can't even begin to count how many squirrel I've taken with this rifle.
    [IMG][/IMG]

  7. #447
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Forrest,
    That is a very nice little Anschutz.
    Don Verna


  8. #448
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    Carry on but this is getting pretty boring now.

    Tim
    Tim! ... We are a bunch of old'Timers...give us a chance to sit on the porch and ramble a bit...we'll be back to work soon!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  9. #449
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
    FWIW:
    It's been my experience that lube issues/1st shot fliers tend to be high left. Bullets that go transonic just before the target tend to go high right.

    The first shot fliers I have are going high and slightly left.

  10. #450
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Had a fun morning... doing these proof test of 5-shot groups of possible nodes...( 9, 11, 12, 13 & 14 ) THE RIGHT TARGET IS TODAY...



    This is what it looks like up close. Above the red line there was no wind, below it was 2 mph.
    I shot 3 targets for each setting...the last two targets I shot were 14 & 15, I wanted to see more of that 4.75-13 tuner setting and that was the end of the day.



    Actually I think the 4.75-9 setting I warmed the barrel with did the best of any so far, I think I'll have a look at that one again & maybe the 4.75-10 also?
    Here's the conditions today...



    Now...for the traumatizing end of day! ...the bore scope arrived.

    Why is is that we 'think' that a dirty/seasoned bore shoots the best? I don't know, so far I've had no complaints, seems to be doing fairly well. I look down the dirty bore with a light in the breech and it shines/reflects light as if it were a polished slick bore. I've given it no more thought than that.
    Tonight I saw for the first time inside that bore as if I were laying on my back in the pipe looking up and around with a flashlight.
    It scares me what I see!
    Here's a couple of the chamber/lead area into the lands...is that a little string of lead shining there?





    About midway down the tube...is this a crusty looking & charred buildup of paraffin? I'm getting the chills!





    And the muzzle, hidden by the clamp-on tuner...oh my gosh, looks like a heck'uva build up outside the crown...





    I think...since I have 370 shots total on this barrel without a wet Hoppes swab, I'll wet swab the heck out of it tomorrow morning, have another look & take some photos and if it is not clear and clean, I'll have a go at it with a plastic bristle bore brush.

    Any suggestions?
    ... tazman...don't you have a bore scope on it's way too? Get ready to be shocked!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  11. #451
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Told ya!

    Now you won't sleep for a week!

    That crusty build up could interesting. I'll await the cleaned bore photo's.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 06-06-2021 at 04:24 AM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  12. #452
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    OS OK---- Mine got here but doesn't quite fit down the barrel. It will go into the chamber, but I have not used it yet.
    Life has been taking place and using up all my time. Hard to find time to shoot or work with the rifles.

    My ammo finally arrived yesterday while I was away. Waiting on the porch when I got home.

    I took a comment someone made to heart about cleaning. You can't always duplicate a dirty barrel. You CAN duplicate clean.
    I have been cleaning the barrels after every session with wet patches of Hoppe's Bench rest formula.
    I want to know what to expect with barrel conditions I can duplicate at will.
    I also need to test the new batch of ammo.

    The J-B bore polish arrived as well. After some testing with the barrels in their current condition, I can begin the polish process.

    Lots of stuff going on right now. I need to take it slow and not make too many changes at once. One step at a time.

    What brand was your bore scope and where did you get it?
    Mine was cheap enough that it not working isn't a big loss. It cost less than a box of ammo.

  13. #453
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    taz... page 21, post 411 shows the one I got.

    These pictures were after 370 accumulated shots on the barrel. Maybe I pushed that too far, don't know. I need to see it clean now & I suspect I'll have to get that bore paste too.
    I think I'll be changing my ways about shooting a dirty/seasoned? barrel...I'll be getting on board with you on this issue.
    Tim mentioned getting down to the 5% area of improvement yet to make...I recon this is it. The looks of that bore amazes me as to how it could shoot like it did yesterday.

    I hope you find more time for your shooting PDQ!

    303Guy... Don't know what that brown stuff is, I suspect it's 'well cooked paraffin'...look at this collection of something that has come out of the bottom of the chamber as I have been wet swabbing the chamber to start each day. I didn't even notice this with my naked eye in that dark space in front of the sled. I think it's Hoppes soaked paraffin?
    The mirror is looking in a 4:00 direction below the 'extractor recess' in the rear of the chamber area.



    I have a lot of changes to make. Looks like a pile of stuff you'd find on a LA sidewalk!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  14. #454
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I've taken photo's of parts om a gun then posted them and been shocked at how dirty they've been! Stuff one doesn't see at normal magnification.

    I've just remembered that I gave my 510 a bore polishing but with Auto-Sol. It was all I had. I did that because my 511 has a rough patch or two in the bore and had collected some lead on those patches. Anyway, I did the 510, the Toz and the Mauser at the same time. The Mauser hasn't collected lead since then and neither has the Toz.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  15. #455
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I missed the 'dead air' shooting period this morning... Spent too much time cleaning the bore and inspecting it with the bore scope.
    There is something here that I have never noticed before, the top 1/2 of the bore from chamber to muzzle is relatively clean and looks like it may have been polished well at one time...



    The bottom half, again chamber to muzzle has an ugly look...sorta flat & no shine and I think I see some type of deterioration...at first I thought it may have been from some cleaning regime using caustic cleaners but having mulled on it for the afternoon, I think it may be simply deterioration from burning powders. I have no idea really, I'll have to depend on you experts that have been here & seen this before to identify it...



    I have ordered a jar of JB Bore Bright to polish it as well as I can to get a slick surface going again I don't want to remove any steel. I am certainly open to suggestions here.

    The next thing I discovered having removed the tuner so I could clean it and the crown (that tuner was loaded with carbon, like looking into a neglected can) was very disturbing to see. Instead of a clean chamfer I found what resembles a sawtooth edge where it should have been smooth and even...



    I have done nothing at all but clean the crown & tuner and reassemble. The rifle has been shooting very well to this point so I am not going to get hasty on this resolve, we need to talk about this problem.
    I can pull the tuner again and get better pictures.
    I can't believe that I haven't noticed this when I had the tuner off for a while and shooting without the tuner. But this is a magnified look at it also.

    Anyway, having used my dead calm time cleaning I went ahead out and thought I might try to re-proof those settings from the other day, just to see what they will look like with a clean start in the bore.
    I was amazed that on the warmer target I didn't get that flyer up around 1:00...instead, they all jumped right into a decent grouping from the very first cold clean bore shot.



    I tried to be patient and shoot in the lulls but they were getting few and far in between and the wind was going in different directions at the same time, so I just hammered in a few targets and setting and quit for the day...no sense in wasting ammo on a half baked effort to find a good node.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  16. #456
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    The Boys over on TRN -precision rifle... put up a friendly challenge yesterday evening, said put a penny up sideways and hit it with your .22lr BR @ 50 yards.

    I said, "that sounds like fun, how's about 5 pennies and see how many shots it took to hit all five?"



    heheee . . . "Next Challenge Please!"





    They have been after me to do some playing around instead of all this constant testing and collecting data all the time...that was a dang good idea!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  17. #457
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Well, today I found out just how bad I am in the wind.
    I had a swirling, stop and go, 13 mph wind the whole time I was there.
    I never knew for sure where the bullet holes were going to end up.
    Nothing way out there but not the nice and tight groups I can get when the wind is light or not there.
    I am NOT going to post the target. Not really anything to learn from it.
    I was using the new Eley Match that just came in and was hoping for better conditions to see how it would do. I guess I will find out another time.

  18. #458
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    TeeHee, OS. I like it!

    You know, that's not a bad idea. Mmm ..... There is this one fellow who was proudly bragging about his 22 rifle. Later in the morning he come over to the 25m range and set up his miniature dartboard target and proceeded to do exactly as he had bragged about. His grand finale was to shoot the thumb pins holding his target, just like he said he does. He said his son calls that rifle his cheat stick. Wins competitions with it. It was heart warming to see the reality - just as described.

    And here you are shooting pennies side on! Awesome!

    But back to the idea, the Ruskies measure accuracy in terms of how many shots it takes to hit a target (that is, to hit a man) at a given distance (using an AK. Five shots to hit a man at 300m is considered good I believe). Well, when I shoot groups I stress over the 'misses'. Now here we have 'rejoicing' over the hits. Makes a lot more sense! This could be a lot of fun. And I have a bag full of thumb pins!

    OK so I've already set up my two target boards for this coming Sunday but hey, all I have to do is stick in a few thumb pins and I'm set to go. (I set up set target sheets with six or more targets to take to the range).
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  19. #459
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    The "rough" look you're seeing in the bottom of the bbl is typical from fouling. It lays/falls to the bottom of the bbl along with an even distribution from the spinning bullet.

    I've said this before, apparently it didn't mean much at the time. 22lr rimfire ammo uses ground glass for the abrasive compound in their priming formula. With every shot a little of that ground glass is expelled from the case and typically lands at the 6 o-clock position in the bbl. That area of the bore/leade of the throat will have the worst wear. From there it's picked up by the next bullet and transferred down the bbl. This in turn affects the "drive side" of the lands making them rough and lead will build-up there affecting accuracy.

    If you use good ammo it will not have paraffin lube. You really don't want to mix different lubes in the bbl, clean between changes in ammo if it uses a different lube.

    All this doesn't really mean much with to those stock 10/22's that can shoot 1/2" groups all day long with their favorite walmart bulk packs and a note from their mama and oooohhh yyyaaaaaaa. "As long as they do their part"

    Anyway, give the rifle a good cleaning, do a little polishing and keep using the same ammo and go out and have fun.

  20. #460
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Speaking of not stressing over groups....I recall one of the most fun event side events at a CAS shoot years ago. They had playing cards on edge. Of course the "gamers" shooting .38's were at a slight disadvantage over the "real cowboys" shooting .45's. I did manage to "make the cut" so to speak with my powder puff .38 loads.
    Don Verna


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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check