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Thread: New to using a 'F-CLASS BR' at 50 yards...

  1. #381
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I'm glad Larry came in and highlighted the airflow issue. I have indeed had supersonic cracks with subsonic ammo at cooler temperatures. Some cracked loudly, some pretty quiet but still audible. That same ammo was completely quiet on a warm evening. Velocity is a nominal 1050 fps and that's what I measured with it. Not a string, just one or two to check the chronograph and to see what the ammo was actually doing. On the cool evening the speed of sound would have been around 1120 fps I think it was.

    But the real question is, just how much effect on accuracy does it have?
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  2. #382
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I'm not convinced that this effect is a 'all at once' type thing.
    I think this sonic barrier is something that we creep up on and as we near the speed of sound at whatever your conditions are, whatever the speed of sound actually is in your location, things start happening...air flow changes down the side of this stubby lil-pill, drag on the rear changes & I think these things are more disturbing to it's flight than it is to a long 'cruise missile' the center-fire boys relate to.
    Think about it...all the pictures of projectile flight do not include our stubby lil-pills...all the experimentation I can find is done on larger & heavier & longer projectiles up to and including cannon-fire.

    The effect I think it is having on my work here amounts to the width of a projectile .224" or thereabouts...that's why I was wondering about why the projectile seems to dance around inside the 10 ring as I shoot in near perfect conditions and am getting near perfect releases.
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  3. #383
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I don't think your impact point variations are the product of any single variable.
    I think they are the accumulation(stacking) of several variables, many of which, you can do nothing about.
    Temperature variations during the shoot, varying lube properties due to internal temp changes and amount changes, slight but nearly imperceptible variances in form(trigger squeeze, cheek pressure, and leveling the rifle among others). Undoubtedly more that we have not considered.
    For instance, have you tested the node setting for different temperatures? It may not work the same in differing temps.
    The velocity of your ammo will change as the temperature rises or drops.
    So many things will/may change where the best node setting is for a specific set of conditions.
    Finding all this out will take a lot of time, ammo, and study. Currently, all you can hope for is finding a setting that works well in a large set of diverse conditions.
    When you get new ammo, this may all start over.

    Speaking about the current quality of Eley match. I have an observation from today's trip to the range.
    During shooting today, I noticed the lube thickness on the Eley match and Tenex I was using, was much thicker and "clumped" on some rounds than others. The only reason I noticed this was due to using magazines to feed the rifle as opposed to loading single shot with an adapter in place. I actually had to look at the nose of the bullet while loading the magazine.
    I actually wiped some of it off from a few rounds because there was so much on them. I can't say it made much, if any, difference in group size but the difference in the coating was easily visible.
    I wasn't set up with my chronograph so no data there. Sorry. I had basically gone to the range to sight in a new-to-me rifle and scope combination and get an idea how it might perform. I didn't take any extra equipment with me.

  4. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    dtknowles . . . That's an interesting observation.

    Do you have any suggestions as to how you would monitor the conditions? What equipment you'd use and how you might apply it?
    I think that they reduced the powder charge if the temps when down or the barometer when down or both and vice versa. I don't know which way you would adjust the tuner. Which way for increased or decrease velocity to stay on the node, maybe someone else knows that.

    Tim
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  5. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    I'm not convinced that this effect is a 'all at once' type thing.
    I think this sonic barrier is something that we creep up on and as we near the speed of sound at whatever your conditions are, whatever the speed of sound actually is in your location, things start happening...air flow changes down the side of this stubby lil-pill, drag on the rear changes & I think these things are more disturbing to it's flight than it is to a long 'cruise missile' the center-fire boys relate to.
    Think about it...all the pictures of projectile flight do not include our stubby lil-pills...all the experimentation I can find is done on larger & heavier & longer projectiles up to and including cannon-fire.

    The effect I think it is having on my work here amounts to the width of a projectile .224" or thereabouts...that's why I was wondering about why the projectile seems to dance around inside the 10 ring as I shoot in near perfect conditions and am getting near perfect releases.
    Even an almost perfect shot travels in a spiral. All you can hope to do is tighten that spiral. Some of that dancing around is just at what part of that spiral does the bullet hit the paper. To shoot a quarter inch group at 50 yards, you need perfect aim, perfect conditions, perfect node, no velocity variation and a bullet that is only out of balance enough to spiral in a a half of moa cone.

    There are some quirks in the short range game as bullet spirals are not true cones as some bullets settle down into a tighter spiral after they have flown a while. The wobble does not get worse, it gets better. Just play with a top or gyroscope. The release causes a wobble but it will steady out. The bullet before being released from the barrel is spinning around its geometric center, once released it needs to transition to rotating around it center of mass. If they are not the same it will wobble until it settles down. It the bullet does not start out perfectly aligned to the center of the bore, that is bad. No chamber/ammo is perfect enough to be wobble-less.
    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

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  6. #386
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I have wondered about that spiral bullet path and bullet wobble. I have though of setting up a series of thin paper target, aligned with a laser and shooting through them so as to be able to trace the spiral. The rifle would have to be mounted in a rigid rest for that to be meaningful over a number of shots.

    I've sometimes been able to see an air rifle pellet wobbling down range and even hit the intended target! And that from a smooth bore. It was amazing to see how the pellet kept more or less on track. The only times I've seen a 22 boolit in flight, I was not able to see any spiraling. It moves faster than an air rifle pellet and probably the path deviation is much less.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  7. #387
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    OS OK is correct.....it is not an "all at once" thing. The buffeting of a plane going through the sound barrier starts before the airflow reaches the speed of sound. The plane when slowing down and going down through the speed of sound will also be buffeted. When this happens depends mostly on the aerodynamics of the plane. The bullet on the other hand, if it will exceed the speed of sound, is not buffeted during the trans-sonic phase because it is still in the barrel when that occurs. There is some speculation the initial yaw and wobble may caused by the sonic compressed airflow held in front of the bullet in the barrel being suddenly released. It is the buffeting of the bullet as it becomes sub-sonic that may cause inaccuracy. If that occurs before 50 yards it may have some effect on accuracy(?). How, much would depend on many variables as is being mentioned and discussed.
    Larry Gibson

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  8. #388
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    OK, finally...a 'couple of things' are starting to connect in that void between my ears!

    Two things, 303Guy's comment about that spiraling as the projectile emerges, it's tendency to make an elliptical or helical flight path before the spin stabilization may or may not tune it out to some degree...

    And...Larry's comment There is some speculation the initial yaw and wobble may caused by the sonic compressed airflow held in front of the bullet in the barrel being suddenly released.

    I am starting to think that as the projectile leaves the muzzle, that instant the base clears the barrel and the hot gasses do their thing on either an imperfect base or as they leave the muzzle and impart different pressure 'kicks' to the base (thinking of all the different techniques that are used to crown the muzzle & if one is really better than the other?)...that this instant in time in a projectile's life is probably the worst thing it will encounter in its flight path to the target. I'm not considering/thinking of other effects like wind or something wrong with the projectile...just thinking of how it is starting off when it leaves the muzzle considering all other conditions as optimum....

    I said earlier in one of my posts that "I thought I may be 'tickling' that pressure wave" with the velocities & altitude where I am here on this range. We have also read about what other's think about the effect being a variable one...starting at .83 Mach through 1.3 Mach or thereabouts.
    If this is true, this lil-pill is being born to it's flight path under another negative circumstance, that in which it is in that 'trans-sonic' transition stage immediately when the maximum wobble and air flow disturbances and gas kicks in the rear take place.

    Could be that this 'dancing around the 10 ring' I have is as good as it gets in this Rabbit'Hole....? Sometimes I just hit a brick wall in thinking too much about something and a switch flips and I just can't get any further...have to set it aside and let things simmer a while.
    I think that 'competition' is probably one of the things that drive the innovation & invention in our industry but on the other side of that coin...I think all this inside information we seek here is held close to the chest, all the high speed photos and all the technical back-flips they do with their numbers is closely guarded...that's the sad part.

    I suppose that until some 'ole'Salt' chimes in and says that he has been shooting on the cutting edge in competition & that this fine tuning does not consistently produce 'One-Holer Groups' & this is the best we can expect...I'll just never know about these things, will always have my suspicions and no way to prove them.
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  9. #389
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    But it's very interesting!

    I was thinking about boolit yaw a day or two ago. We sometimes find a boolit hole that clearly shows a degree of yaw. Those tend to be on the outskirts of a group. Thing is, what caused it? Well the fact that quality ammo doesn't do it tells us it's an ammo issue and the only thing I can see that can cause it would be boolit imperfections.

    I have wondered about venting the gases before the boolit exits the muzzle. The problem for me is I don't have the means of drilling vent holes clear of the rifling lands. If I did, I could do it to a barrel I want to shorten but nothing I have is accurate enough anyway I would think. I did shorten two rifles, one is pretty accurate while the other not so much. I never did a before group with either so nothing to be learned there. However, I do have another rifle I want to shorten some day. I'll be sure to do a before and after accuracy test when I do but still no venting. Unless someone has an idea how I might do it?
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  10. #390
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    Maybe something to that. Back in the day most 22LR competitors preferred long barrels of 26+ inches. Not only for the sight radius but also it was said the longer barrels kept the bullet sub-sonic. Perhaps, since most 22LR reaches it's highest velocity in 16 - 20" barrels, that the longer barrels also reduced the gas pressures at muzzle exit thus disturbing the bullet less?
    Larry Gibson

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  11. #391
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Your velocities are ridiculously high for that eley match. Makes me wonder what kind of junk eley is putting on the market these days. Even if you take out the extreme 1st's your still running es's in the teens. 1100fps you might as well use the american match ammo. Most of it's 1100fps/designed for pistols.

    There's really nothing you can do about the firearm heating up other the check the torques. It's common to reset them between sets at matches. You can try to see the difference between a cold firearm and a warm firearm but at the end of the day you'll find that the colder the firearm is the more rigid it is & if you're getting bughole in cold temps and the groups open up when it gets warmer. That telling you you have a bedding issue. You're playing with a tuning fork

    While putting the temp sensor on your rifle is interesting, you should be putting it on your ammo. You can't control the temp of the firearm but you can the temp of the ammo. Do a little testing with the sensor on the ammo in the sun vs shade.

    Myself I'd invest in 1 of these and take a hard look at the leade of your firearms chamber.
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/39161527061...cAAOSwAuZX6zVH

    You want to look at it from both sides along with inspecting the bbl itself while clean and after use.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Some jb bore paste might be in order.

    FWIW:
    The leade & chamber got cleaned with a patch and jb bore paste. Then inspected with a camera like the 1 pictured above. After 20/30/40 cleanings of the leade with jb bore paste (depending on the bbl) with lower grade bbl's (under $300) The 1st shot fliers would go away or be a lot less if everything else was right and tight. If the leade of your bbl is constantly stripping the bullet you will see 1st shot fliers/higher velocities & irregular fouling of the bbl that takes longer to season/even everything out in the bbl.

    After that the bbl gets cleaned after every outing. You can't repeat the affects of a dirty bbl but you can always repeat the affects of a clean bbl.

    just something to think about.
    A simple test is to leave the bbl dirty from the last outing if it settled down like the last target you showed. The next outing clean the chamber and leade only & push a dry patch down the bbl removing loose crud. You're looking at the 1st shot and how long it takes the bbl to settle in. If the results are different from what you're normally seeing you have started to isolate what's going on.

    Very few people have an ideal setup with the consistently excellent conditions like you have. I have to go out at the break of dawn and wait out the conditions of the few days that actually have less then 5mph winds to do any testing/zeroing. Today would actually be a good day in my area to go out and shoot rimfire br. There's only a wnw 6mph wind for the next 3 hours with gusts up to 10mph followed by lulls and strait out of the north and the west switchbacks. From there it's supposed to turn to only 7mph winds with gusts up to 12mph and winds out of the north with wnw & ene switchbacks

  12. #392
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Forrest r---Thanks for posting that. The imperfections to the chamber and leade are undoubtedly causing some of the problems I am having in one or more of the rifles I am shooting.
    How long would you expect it to take for the chamber and leade to just wear in from shooting as opposed to lapping?

    I had one rifle recently, that suddenly became a tack driver after firing about 100 rounds through it. Apparently a burr or other irregularity in the chamber/leade area.

    I certainly understand the need for choosing the day for testing. Recently, most of the days here have been windy and gusty with occasional rain. I have been able to squeeze in a couple of hours when conditions were favorable but it isn't as often as I would like.

  13. #393
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Thank you Forest r... I am looking into a bore-scope. I have to use one for the iPhone & iPad and they seem to be harder to find as I am not a computer type guy who understands all the technical stuff describing the cameras.
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  14. #394
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Maybe something to that. Back in the day most 22LR competitors preferred long barrels of 26+ inches. Not only for the sight radius but also it was said the longer barrels kept the bullet sub-sonic. Perhaps, since most 22LR reaches it's highest velocity in 16 - 20" barrels, that the longer barrels also reduced the gas pressures at muzzle exit thus disturbing the bullet less?
    Spot on Larry, it's called putting the bullet to sleep.

    Of all people anscutz decided to take a hard look at bbl lengths and found that a +/- 19" bbl was the optimum length to get the max velocity/least bbl whip out of the majority of the 1050fps to 1085fps match ammo out there.

    Myself I always liked/used +/- 26" bbl's that had a taper choke at the muzzle end of the bbl.

    I have no idea how many people pay attention to the lube/fouling star on the muzzle of their bbl's. That star will speak volumes about what's going on with your ammo/bbl combo.

  15. #395
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Thank you for thanking me .but please quit doing that.

    I'm grateful for members like all of you that take the time to really take a look at the cause & effects of an extremely complicated sport.

    I've been lucky enough to be able to spend decades owning/shooting some of the best rimfire firearms out there. Was around for the golden age with the dimpled federal ultramatch. The russian 22lr firearms and ammo that came into this country around the same time was outstanding and little $$$. Shot untold cases of match ammo from all the big name ammo makers along with tons of the bulk blammo ammo.

    Start using 100+/- different kinds of ammo in 150+ different rimfire firearms and common trends start to show up. The basics never change & all's I'm doing is passing along some of the things I look at or look for with rimfire firearms.

  16. #396
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
    Thank you for thanking me .but please quit doing that.

    I'm grateful for members like all of you that take the time to really take a look at the cause & effects of an extremely complicated sport.

    I've been lucky enough to be able to spend decades owning/shooting some of the best rimfire firearms out there. Was around for the golden age with the dimpled federal ultramatch. The russian 22lr firearms and ammo that came into this country around the same time was outstanding and little $$$. Shot untold cases of match ammo from all the big name ammo makers along with tons of the bulk blammo ammo.

    Start using 100+/- different kinds of ammo in 150+ different rimfire firearms and common trends start to show up. The basics never change & all's I'm doing is passing along some of the things I look at or look for with rimfire firearms.
    We have to thank you for posting about this. We don't have the experience to draw on that you do. If you didn't post it, we probably would never know about some of this.
    We also don't have the time to acquire the experience.
    I, for one, am very happy you took time to post and explain.

    I would still like a reply to my question about how long it might take to just shoot in the chamber and leade instead of lapping it?

  17. #397
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
    Spot on Larry, it's called putting the bullet to sleep.

    Of all people anscutz decided to take a hard look at bbl lengths and found that a +/- 19" bbl was the optimum length to get the max velocity/least bbl whip out of the majority of the 1050fps to 1085fps match ammo out there.

    Myself I always liked/used +/- 26" bbl's that had a taper choke at the muzzle end of the bbl.

    I have no idea how many people pay attention to the lube/fouling star on the muzzle of their bbl's. That star will speak volumes about what's going on with your ammo/bbl combo.
    I've been contemplating choking one of my rifle barrels to see what if any difference it would make.

    The rifle that earned me the silhouette trophies had a very worn muzzle that I didn't know about. I later took off only half an inch and that seemed enough. It was a suppressor with out of line baffles that highlighted the muzzle issue. Maybe it was only the out of line baffles that were an issue? But my point is that the muzzle had a 'reverse choke' so to speak and still delivered the goods with HV ammo. It shot fine out to 100 yds but at 100m it patterned. Nine yards difference! At the time I thought it was the transitional velocity effect causing it.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 05-27-2021 at 09:14 PM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  18. #398
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    We have to thank you for posting about this. We don't have the experience to draw on that you do. If you didn't post it, we probably would never know about some of this.
    We also don't have the time to acquire the experience.
    I, for one, am very happy you took time to post and explain.

    I would still like a reply to my question about how long it might take to just shoot in the chamber and leade instead of lapping it?
    I didn't answer you simply because it's hard to say. At the end of the day it will not hurt anything either. Even if you don't see any improvement in your 1st shot flier (could be caused by other things/this you can not control), show should see an improvement in the bbl settling in quicker/less shots. You will also feel the difference in the amount of force it takes to push whatever your using to go into that area along with cleaning quicker/less strokes.

    Burnishing:
    This is actually what you are doing the the throat of the leade. I do the same thing to all my revolver cylinders in the leade area of them. It makes a huge difference in the carbon ring build-up in them. JB bore paste is 1200 grit which is just aggressive enough to not only remove the carbon/build-up from those area. It will slowly remove imperfections in the metal while making a mirror finish in that area.

    In the firearms world, these 2 items are your friend.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    The JB bore paste for polishing & the moly bore treatment for getting the most out of bolts/fp hits, trigger groups, feed ramps, etc.

  19. #399
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    I've been contemplating choking one of my rifle barrels to see what if any difference it would make.

    The rifle that earned me the silhouette trophies had a very worn muzzle that I didn't know about. I later took off only half an inch and that seemed enough. It was a suppressor with out of line baffles that highlighted the muzzle issue. Maybe it was only the out of line baffles that were an issue? But my point is that the muzzle had a 'reverse choke' so to speak and still delivered the goods with HV ammo. It shot fine out to 100 yds but at 100m it patterned. Nine yards difference! At the time I thought it was the transitional velocity effect causing it.
    You a correct, the choke at the end of the bbl is there for consistency.

    I won't tell you how to do anything I'm sure you know how to work on firearms. But I will say what I would do.

    Myself I be taking a hard look at the crown and the star on the face of the bbl left from range use. If they don't look good then I'd work on the crown until it was correct. Once the crown is correct I'd run a tight patch down the bbl feeling for any high/low spots and the last inch of bbl you want as even as possible. From there I'd clean the bbl up to the last inch before the muzzle doing this for 3 or 4 range outing to create a temporary choke in the bbl.

    I'd do some shooting/testing to see how the now choked bbl performs. If it shows promise I'd put a choke in it, if not I would not go any further.

    A chronograph and recording the temp at the time of shooting will tell you if you're going transonic and where.

    Years ago I put a 4p scope on a remington 540x.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Took it out to the range and was sighting it in @ the 50yd line. I was using federal 510 hv ammo to get it on paper & when it was close I started shooting groups. I kept getting 2 groups on the target (each group +/- 3/4") 1 inch apart. Shot 15/20 shots and the bullets either went into 1 group or the other. I knew the scope was good, mounts good/tight. Started wondering if the bolt needed a good cleans so I took the rifle home and tore the bolt down. Everything looked good. That got me to thinking so I looked up the temperatures at the time I was shooting/testing and wrote them down. Took the rifle/ammo combo back out the next day and shot over a chronograph. Sure enough some of the shots stayed supersonic to the target while others went transonic just before the target (+/- 15ft).

    I believe I ended up with groups instead of patterns simply because it happed so close to the target and at a close range. I was looking at a 3/4" group + 1" then another 3/4" group. That's a +/- 2 1/2" spread @ 50yds where that federal normally is in the +/- 3/4" range in several firearms.

  20. #400
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Thought I might start collecting more data... so I took this off the wall in the shop and thought I might get a photo on every practice day just to keep track of more parameters...this is what the readings were in the shop.



    This is what it changed to after about 40 minutes out on the bench and at the end of practice today...



    I wanted to take a look at the lower settings under the 4.75-10 so I spent some time with 4.75-8 & 4.75-9...it was a near perfect day for shooting and I thought it may be good for another tuner setting test. Not many shots on either setting so I doubt this really will prove anything at all . . . I think the biggest variable in this whole endeavor is the lack of consistency in the shooter.
    We don't have gauges that register after every shot to identify anything out of alignment so I think the shooter takes the biggest blame...here's today's practice...



    I am not going to mess with the bore or chamber until I can get some dang good photos of what those look like, so...were waiting on a bore-cam when I locate something to work with my Mac stuff...
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check