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Thread: New to using a 'F-CLASS BR' at 50 yards...

  1. #21
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beltfed View Post
    OS OK
    Noted that throughout the above test series, looks like
    on the average, you have more horizontal than vertical.
    Wind, you noted on the one series,
    but not noted on the other series.
    Probably the table or maybe something else causing more horizontal
    than vertical more often
    beltfed/arnie
    I did what I could to help the horizontal spread today with that tether I mentioned above. However with today's testing I did see some vertical stringing too.

    Today's testing...
    was suggested by Harry Tobin... He suggested shooting the whole number increments from 1 through 5 just to see what would happen in that spread of barrel length change.
    The tuner can add .500" to the barrel length total.
    Each click of the tuner adds .001" to the length. (starting from minimum of course, it can also reduce bbl. length...depends where your starting and which direction you twisting the tuner and testing.

    Here's the target/graph for today...



    Shooting conditions were good, that wind today didn't do anything like it did yesterday. Light gusts to 8 or 10mph but they were few and far in between.

    I have 'lettered' both pages of these tests now so we can refer to any single group by giving the horizontal line they are on (letters from A to E & the vertical columns are lettered F through N.)
    This way we can refer to a specific group as, for example today's warmer target as location... 'B/G' that should take all the mystery out of what we are talking about.

    Here is the Pg-1 of this series...the wind of the first test was up in the top of the page...it was '0' that day. In the future the wind will be in the box where the warmer target is.



    For not ever having done this type shooting or recording such information on the targets, I know it is a bit vague...for that I apologize and will try to work out a system that'll work better on the fly.
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  2. #22
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Have you noticed the first warmer shot being out of the group similar to what is happening with your Savage?
    I can't really see anything indicating this is happening with the targets you have posted but I may not be seeing everything.

  3. #23
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    Now sometimes when two old dogs talk they come up with a plan. This is what I wanted to see the whole spectrum, and from the graph of today I’d be looking at the 3 to 4 range. Now maybe try 350 and see what side of 350 you want to go. Should get you in the ball park faster.
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  4. #24
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    tazman... I have but it's so much closer in and touching the 1" circle 3 to 5:00. I'm not seeing a pattern like the MKII, that rifle sorta walked in to the POA using most of the 5 warmer-shots to get there.
    This CZ needs only one shot and hones right into the POA on one day and the next seems to need 3 or so to get there. I can't really see a pattern yet.
    Sat. 2/27, pg.2 @ A/G it threw the 2'nd shot to 10:00 and that surprised me but thinking of the gusty wind that day I have to throw that out, can't really say for sure that was the CZ or me...most likely it was me.

    Harry... Here's what I am thinking...notice pg.1, in that first .100" of barrel, we see about 5 settings that are almost a perfect 'one holer'. That was skipping to every 4'th click on each revolution of the dial. So....that's 5 'possible nodes' in .025" of barrel lengthening. I think that's correct?
    In the entire .500" of total adjustment we could see 20 nodes (& that by skipping .004" each setting along the way).
    I don't have any idea whether there are more or less 'nodes per inch' - length increase as the barrel gets longer or not...certainly the mechanical frequency of oscillation would change for a longer or shorter barrel, just as a tuning fork changes.
    I wish we had an engineer type who knows about these matters and is able to talk to us redneck types in plain English without confusing us with math formulas and such...
    There must be a reason for having so many settings, I'd like to know why?
    Where are we most likely to encounter wider nodes . . . on the short barrel compared to the long barrel?
    All I know, or I think I know is that it must be a function of all the frequency's generated by the shot being fired and how they happen to end at the muzzle, either being a node spot or not and all that being a numerical function compared to the frequency of vibration in any specific barrel length. Or something like that, I think I just described a complex mathmatical formula that dwarfs my comprehension?
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  5. #25
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I am thinking your nodes, with this particular rifle, are wider than a single click. Perhaps each one covers more than 5 to 10 clicks in a single spot.
    That gives you a broader range of settings where you can get excellent accuracy.
    Determining the width of a node and the centermost setting shouldn't be too difficult.

    I would much prefer that situation to one where a single click gives accuracy and the others do not. This would be far too susceptible to change by temperature or other conditions. With a wide node, a central setting should still give good accuracy even with subtle changes in conditions.

    You can burn through all your available ammo searching for that magic single setting and have to do it all again with the next batch of ammo. Never ending cycle of frustration.

  6. #26
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    tazman... Your up early today!

    You can burn through all your available ammo searching for that magic single setting and have to do it all again with the next batch of ammo. Never ending cycle of frustration. I agree but so far it's been very interesting to me as I have no experience with all this stuff.

    What your saying about the nodes 'width' I agree, from one end of the barrel length to the other, min. to max., I think the nodes widen. On which end of barrel length I have no idea.
    I think I see a very friendly area on pg.1, @ C/J-N with very little vertical dispersion.
    I think that first 5-shot test of that area looked really good too @ C/G & H.
    I believe I will be miles ahead to go back there and concentrate on my skill-set of launching these pills and see if I can improve the results...my redneck shooting bench is a little more stable now so that's a plus in the right direction anyway!
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  7. #27
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Getting stable is always the most difficult part. Remaining stable throughout the shot is right there also. Lots of different techniques to try but only you will know which ones work for you.
    It is impossible to completely remove the human from the shot. Even if you did, there are all those other variables involved(wind, temperature, sun, etc.).

  8. #28
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Thank you for replying.

    You really should consider shooting some rounds of mid-grade/your eley/etc without the tuner. Test the torques on your takedown screws. Too loose you get horizontal stringing. Too tight you get vertical stringing. You want round groups & adjust your action screws to get round groups. Record those torques (if you have a torque wrench) or mark where the take down screw slots point. This establishes a baseline to show what the rifle is capable of without the tuner. Without doing this you don't know if it's the tuner or the torques on the take down screws that is affecting the groups. You very well could have the take down screws too tight/loose and the tuner is trying to fight this.

    A chronograph would be huge right now!!!. Recording every shot's velocity and highlighting every flier with a marker. Saving the brass by putting it back in a spent ammo tray and highlighting every flier on the base is a good thing. At the end of a session you look to see if all the fp hits look the same. Same depth, same even length of hit, same dent in the base of the spent shell when looking sideways. All the fp hits should be identical. Your es's with the chronograph is what your looking at. Typically eley 10x runs in the single digit to low teens for sd's and es's no higher then 20fps. The es's tell the tale but it's always good to visually inspect the cases. Both of these things can and will point out any inconsistent ignition issues if you have any.

    Asked about bbl length because the shorter the bbl is the stiffer it is. The bbl tenon will also play a huge role in the harmonics/barrel whip/etc. Most br bbl's have a .750" tenon and bbl length is always subjective. You might want to try to get an impression of the chamber along with checking the twist and seeing if it's taper lapped. You might also consider pulling the bolt and looking at the end of the bbl for markings to give you an idea of what bbl it is.

    Asked about the fp hits and posted a picture of what my reworked bolt fp hits look like. CZ bolts internals are rural at best and reworking them can and will cut your group sizes down.

    Anyway no real help, simply asking out of curiosity. I will say that I use a harrel tuner along with a extension that has 6 weight that are different sizes/weights. The previous owner of the rifle you bought felt they needed more weight and made a home made extension out of stick on lead ww's. I also like to use 2 different lots of ammo when setting up a tuner. 1 fast and the other slow and target overlapping sweet spots.

  9. #29
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    "I wish we had an engineer type who knows about these matters and is able to talk to us redneck types in plain English without confusing us with math formulas and such...
    There must be a reason for having so many settings, I'd like to know why?
    Where are we most likely to encounter wider nodes . . . on the short barrel compared to the long barrel?
    All I know, or I think I know is that it must be a function of all the frequency's generated by the shot being fired and how they happen to end at the muzzle, either being a node spot or not and all that being a numerical function compared to the frequency of vibration in any specific barrel length. Or something like that, I think I just described a complex mathmatical formula that dwarfs my comprehension?"

    I am an engineer and hold a few patents...none on this subject but I use common sense a lot. And I have found many "redneck types" are plenty smart and have a lot of common sense.

    Here are my opinions....
    The only reason target rifles for .22 smallbore competition have long barrels is to increase precision...not accuracy. By that I mean the benefit of greater precision with a longer sighting radius is paramount when using iron sights and trumps any slight loss of accuracy due to nodes.

    A short thick barrel will be less affected than a longer thinner barrel.

    A difference of .025" in barrel length will not be discernable. If there is a difference, it will require thousands of shots to measure the difference. I believe there will be greater affect by adding or increasing the mass of the tuner than the impact of adding a wee bit of barrel length.

    Sometimes good enough is good enough. I agree with Mr. Tobin's suggestion to test out your tuner. KISS

    I would suggest playing with tuner weight if that is possible. I know there is a lead tape I have seen used on shotgun barrels but even a lead mass attached using "Goop" will work for testing. I have used Goop to attach ribs on shotguns (for testing) and it will not mar the finish and is easily removed.

    One last thought....go to Rimfire Central. I suspect there are guys there who have a lot of experience with tuners on .22 rifles.

    Good luck!!!
    Don Verna


  10. #30
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
    Thank you for replying.

    (A) You really should consider shooting some rounds of mid-grade/your eley/etc without the tuner. Test the torques on your takedown screws. Too loose you get horizontal stringing. Too tight you get vertical stringing. You want round groups & adjust your action screws to get round groups. Record those torques (if you have a torque wrench) or mark where the take down screw slots point. This establishes a baseline to show what the rifle is capable of without the tuner. Without doing this you don't know if it's the tuner or the torques on the take down screws that is affecting the groups. You very well could have the take down screws too tight/loose and the tuner is trying to fight this.

    (B) A chronograph would be huge right now!!!. Recording every shot's velocity and highlighting every flier with a marker. Saving the brass by putting it back in a spent ammo tray and highlighting every flier on the base is a good thing. At the end of a session you look to see if all the fp hits look the same. Same depth, same even length of hit, same dent in the base of the spent shell when looking sideways. All the fp hits should be identical. Your es's with the chronograph is what your looking at. Typically eley 10x runs in the single digit to low teens for sd's and es's no higher then 20fps. The es's tell the tale but it's always good to visually inspect the cases. Both of these things can and will point out any inconsistent ignition issues if you have any.

    (C) Asked about bbl length because the shorter the bbl is the stiffer it is. The bbl tenon will also play a huge role in the harmonics/barrel whip/etc. Most br bbl's have a .750" tenon and bbl length is always subjective. You might want to try to get an impression of the chamber along with checking the twist and seeing if it's taper lapped. You might also consider pulling the bolt and looking at the end of the bbl for markings to give you an idea of what bbl it is.

    Asked about the fp hits and posted a picture of what my reworked bolt fp hits look like. CZ bolts internals are rural at best and reworking them can and will cut your group sizes down.

    (D) Anyway no real help, simply asking out of curiosity. I will say that I use a harrel tuner along with a extension that has 6 weight that are different sizes/weights. The previous owner of the rifle you bought felt they needed more weight and made a home made extension out of stick on lead ww's. I also like to use 2 different lots of ammo when setting up a tuner. 1 fast and the other slow and target overlapping sweet spots.
    Thank you Forrest r.... for this detailed information, regarding:

    (A) When I was remodeling this rifle to fit me, I rolled her over and checked the take-down screws for tightness, just checked by hand although I do have a 1/4"-inch/pounds torque wrench. I thought about trying to estimate the torque with that wrench and I also thought about cracking her open and having a good look at the bedding.
    I got one of those 'hesitant feelings' that stopped me from doing so. I can't explain why other than that feeling that stopped me. At some point I will do this but until then I need more time on this rig to get a feel for what I can do with it as she is....I have read some and watched a few videos that address this issue, but to mess with this torque & have some confidence doing so, I need to make that 'the experiment or project' somewhere downstream in this thread and get some folks to chime in with their actual 'torque values & various stocks and rifles' and then listen carefully to their stories of success & failure.
    I want to assume that this previous owner has it mated up as best as he was able. Yah...I know about 'assuming'...

    (B) I think I can get this done today...

    (C) I thought I might find barrel ID's on the underside when I cracked her open, I didn't realize I might find them inside the breech...thanks. Only thing I've done on this end is to chamber an Eley Match round and then extract it to see if it was going into the lands, luckily it was...



    (D) I removed the weights carefully that came on the tuner, straightened them out carefully and saved them for future experimenting...they were fastened to the tuner with a quality double sided tape.

    At times I think I overload my plate with 'to do's' and neglect good practicing by doing all the experimenting I've done, especially in the 'Peep & Globe' thread, experimenting tends to divide my attention on the bench, especially data gathering between shots. So for a while I am going to keep this thread progressing a little slower than the 'P&G' thread and get to know this rifle first. From what I've seen so far & with the limited knowledge I have in this discipline...I do think I have a wonderful shooter here.
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  11. #31
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    "I wish we had an engineer type who knows about these matters and is able to talk to us redneck types in plain English without confusing us with math formulas and such...
    There must be a reason for having so many settings, I'd like to know why?
    Where are we most likely to encounter wider nodes . . . on the short barrel compared to the long barrel?
    All I know, or I think I know is that it must be a function of all the frequency's generated by the shot being fired and how they happen to end at the muzzle, either being a node spot or not and all that being a numerical function compared to the frequency of vibration in any specific barrel length. Or something like that, I think I just described a complex mathmatical formula that dwarfs my comprehension?"

    I am an engineer and hold a few patents...none on this subject but I use common sense a lot. And I have found many "redneck types" are plenty smart and have a lot of common sense.

    Here are my opinions....
    The only reason target rifles for .22 smallbore competition have long barrels is to increase precision...not accuracy. By that I mean the benefit of greater precision with a longer sighting radius is paramount when using iron sights and trumps any slight loss of accuracy due to nodes.

    A short thick barrel will be less affected than a longer thinner barrel.

    (A) A difference of .025" in barrel length will not be discernable. If there is a difference, it will require thousands of shots to measure the difference. I believe there will be greater affect by adding or increasing the mass of the tuner than the impact of adding a wee bit of barrel length.

    (B) Sometimes good enough is good enough. I agree with Mr. Tobin's suggestion to test out your tuner. KISS

    I would suggest playing with tuner weight if that is possible. I know there is a lead tape I have seen used on shotgun barrels but even a lead mass attached using "Goop" will work for testing. I have used Goop to attach ribs on shotguns (for testing) and it will not mar the finish and is easily removed.

    (C) One last thought....go to Rimfire Central. I suspect there are guys there who have a lot of experience with tuners on .22 rifles.

    Good luck!!!
    Thank you dverna... for this detailed information. Regarding:

    (A) Until now, the only way I can relate to these harmonics (which I think may be more complex) is to look back at my education in electronics I received in the USMC via the Navy. I have been relating to these harmonics as I do 'transmission frequencies' in either 'transmission lines' or 'antennas'. Here we tune the length to null the standing wave that diminishes the transmission power output. We can also use a complex electrical tuner circuit to do this electrically too, I sorta see the barrel tuner in this light.
    This may not be correct in comparing the two but it's all I had going till now.

    (B) Not sure who, but one of the fellas gave me a link to this site which helped quite a bit on the 'tuning principal'.
    https://newbrunswick-benchrest.blogs...el-tuning.html

    (C) Thanks for that, I've been there and have many bookmarks to refer to.

    Basically, like I mentioned above...I need to get very well acquainted with this shooter and improve my skill-set before I get too deep in this rabbit hole of experimenting with her.
    This is like sliding into the bucket seat of a Corvette when all I've driven my whole life is an old used pickup truck. ...and to tell the truth, since I was 16 all I have ever had is pickup trucks.
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  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    have you tried it without the tuner ? you never know if you dont try it.good shooting by the way.

  13. #33
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robg View Post
    have you tried it without the tuner ? you never know if you dont try it.good shooting by the way.
    Thank you. No I haven't, I did think about it but thought I was probably cutting myself short...sorta like buying a new car and telling them to leave off the cruse control.
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  14. #34
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Weather permitted . . . with a caveat. Had to deal with another gusty day. It wasn't so bad though, the gusts were of short duration, gave me lots of time to get shots off without being rushed. I could hear the gusts coming in the tree tops before they hit me.

    Here's the target for today...I reset the tuner to the '0.5 setting with 20 clicks'. That seemed like a good place to start since we have seen this setting do fairly well before.



    Forrest r... Asked about chronograph readings > A chronograph would be huge right now!!!. Recording every shot's velocity and highlighting every flier with a marker.
    Here's a picture of what I think you might want to see...



    > Saving the brass by putting it back in a spent ammo tray and highlighting every flier on the base is a good thing. At the end of a session you look to see if all the fp hits look the same. Same depth, same even length of hit, same dent in the base of the spent shell when looking sideways. All the fp hits should be identical.



    These cases are stacked in the box in columns representing the first target through the last from left side to right and the top to bottom sequence is the shot sequence.
    BUT...the first row, second case down got away from me and hit the ground. I thought I watched it land and picked it right up but it has a wider strike & that strike is from the MKII. Other than that, all the cases went from the chamber straight to the box without a hiccup.

    Well...that about sums up today's practice, it felt good even though I was recording so much data at the same time...it wasn't that much of a distraction.
    I am thinking I should repeat this practice with a '0.5-21' setting on the tuner?
    Anyone agree?"
    At 'A/I' above, it showed more promise with less vertical stringing.
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  15. #35
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    I have never shot with a tuner, never touched one. I wonder how much a tuner would shrink group size when properly tuned? A tenth of an inch or maybe only half a tenth, 50 thou?

    I know these pictures are not enough to judge the ammo or the gun, I shot them with my Savage Anschutz with a 9 power scope but you don't need a tuner to shoot half inch groups at 50 yards.

    This is every group from that range session, only fouling shots excluded and they were at most one or two for each ammo and no sighters. Did not touch the sights. I am going to go dig and see if I have other pictures. My rifle will shoot close to half inch 5 shot groups at 50 yards with SK, Wolf Match and Eley TENEX most of the time and almost always keeps 10 shots well under an inch.

    Attachment 278797Attachment 278798Attachment 278799

    I don't know how you can tell that the tuner is doing anything. Not saying it isn't but the idea of shooting the rifle without the tuner might be revealing. Maybe just having a tuner is what makes the difference and the adjustments don't change much. Can you move the tuner, like huge adjustment, inches instead of fractions. I was thinking. Can the anti-nodes be found, the places that are real bad, the node would be someplace between those anti-nodes.

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  16. #36
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    dtknowles... They told me to do a series of 2-shot groups at 50 yards at various equally spaced settings on the tuner and look for groups that were close to or touching each other horizontally. That, that would be a good indicator of being close to a node. Then shoot on both sides of one of those groups as I adjust the tuner either 'up or down' incrimentally to determine whether or not they got closer together or wider apart and/or whether it would start imprinting with a vertical spread...to stay away from vertically spaced groups.

    This is the initial test grid I shot...as it turned out, there were several 'one hole' 2-shot groups in this initial test. That made it pretty easy to choose a place to start tuning from.



    This tuner is designed very much like a micrometer...it has a total of .500" that can add to the length of the barrel.
    From the 0 mark to the 1 mark the tuner increases length by .100", it has a total of 5 increments. Each increment is divided into 4 spaces of .025" inch...each of those increments gain length by .001" with each click of the tuner, with each twist from ball indent to the next. One full turn equals .025".



    As far as saying how much a tuner can shrink groups, I can't honestly say. This is the first time I ever lay hands on one also. I am a neophyte to this F-class BR discipline and I'm learning as I go with the help from many pretty special people in this forum.


    EDIT: There are a couple of links that do a great job of explaining w/diagrams & video the technical end of these tuners:
    http://www.varmintal.com/amode.htm
    http://www.varmintal.com/atune.htm
    Last edited by OS OK; 03-01-2021 at 08:00 PM.
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  17. #37
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  18. #38
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    WOW!!! Very well done!!!

    I like the groups from the .5-20 setting, very telling.

    Hard to tell from the picture but you should take a hard look at the fp hits on the cases and your plotted hits/groups chart. You're looking for even consistent hits on all 5 ='s round/tight group. lite or extremely dented/hard hit ='s fliers and the high/low shots.

    If you have lite hits:
    Were the speeds higher or lower then the average 1080fps.
    Did they hit consistently high or low on the target.

    Same questions with any heavy/hard fp hits.

    This is where a slower lot of ammo (+/- 1065fps) would be extremely useful. Some rifle prefer faster or slower lots of ammo. Running the same tests with a slower lot of ammo and then overlapping/comparing the results to the 1080fps lot your using would be useful in narrowing your test setting with your tuner.

    I really like those groups from the .5-20 setting. Get rid of a couple fliers and you'll be ready to start hunting. Up here in ne ohio we'd put out plain bright white printing paper in the spring on the target stands @ 50yds. Attracts flies like crazy!!! As with anything moving, it's always good to lead them a little. In summer a wingding on a string was the cat's meow for flies and yellow jackets.

    Anyway get rid of the fliers in the 1st and 3rd groups (2 fliers total) and you'd be on fire.

  19. #39
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  20. #40
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    One can see that the tuner has an effect by the shift of POI. Looking at Varmint Al's animation, I would be guessing that the idea is to tune the three nodes so as to self cancel.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check