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Thread: New to using a 'F-CLASS BR' at 50 yards...

  1. #301
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I'd look at page 5 targets 10 to 12. Also page 5 target 13 to 15. Or the middle ones.

    Is it just me or am I seeing a dramatic tightening of groups? Only one thing has happened, you've taken the action out of the stock and put it back in again. Seems like an ain't broke situation to me.

    That's some fine shooting!

    So after all this bedding talk, I decided to have a look at my Toz-17. It has two bedding screws which is great but the rear one wasn't holding much and the scope wasn't very tight. So I mixed up some epoxy, and bedded it. I can't get any pictures of the bedding job 'cause I think it may be glued in. Anyway, once the epoxy has cured, I'll give the bedding screws a good tightening. Then I'll wait a week to get to the range and see what difference it makes, weather permitting.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 05-07-2021 at 02:22 AM.
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  2. #302
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    Charlie, you are making great progress. Really looking forward to seeing some 5 shot groups when the wind cooperates.
    Don Verna


  3. #303
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I'll re-post this comparison between Min & Max so we can have the picture handy on this page . . .



    Tim... I shoot these target pages and use the target number printed by each individual target to represent the tuner setting from '0' ~ '24'. That 'range' is a full revolution of the front piece that turns against that scale you see that has been double stamped. Try not to let the double stamping confuse you, it did me for a while but now I don't even see it when I'm setting to a number.



    "Oh CRAP" . . . I just caught a mistake I made, this is not a testing from the '4.0-0' mark as I labeled the target...it should say (at the top) '4.75-0'....dang it all!
    Sometimes I am a complete bonehead! The picture shows the tuner set at '5.0-0' & that is the extreme setting & it is the setting I ended with in target #25 (bottom right).
    That small line to the left of the '5' is where I started this test. (sorry for the confusion boys!)
    Since there are 4 minor divisions between whole numbers along the base of the tuner, I look at those as '4.0-0 ~ 4.25-0 ~ 4.5-0 ~ 4.75-0 up to 5.0-0' ... each turn has 25 clicks numbered '0 ~ 24' so you see there is a full revolution between each 1/4 division between each whole number.
    If we were reading a micrometer we'd be adding the setting numbers to the baseline mark and having our total measurement but here to simplify it for my partial brain I have been reading it as I described above. It makes it easy for me not to have to do the math. I have no idea how others who have experience note or refer to their settings.

    "I swear, I need to hire me a competent secretary to do the documentation in this thread...I'm always catching myself in some type of 'GOOF'!''

    taz...You asked the other day about the scale of these targets...here it is.



    With this Sightron scope...that dot in the cross-hairs is the exact same size as the dot on the target...



    Tim mentioned not using cheek pressure on the comb, I can't do that...the focal length to the eye has to be very exacting at this 36X power, that's why I have to use a firm cheek weld or that scope picture would be constantly dancing around 'in & out' of focus & there is no side to side room to wiggle the head around or you will see the picture in the lens move off center and disappear quickly.

    Where to test with 5-shot groups... Looking between targets 8 & 16 I thought I was seeing a clockwise tracing of the barrel vibrations as the bullet left the muzzle and I thought I would see it progress (imprint) incrementally in that direction as I shot each target.
    * In reality it looks like it changes direction along that circular trace but I don't think it really does...
    [[[ I think that changing the numbers of the tuner causes a different 'standing wave' in the barrel that reacts with the several waves coming forward from the receiver.
    It has been described in Al's Varmint Page (<I think?) that there are actually multiple waves (vibrations) that we deal with. The first one being the striking of the rim of the cartridge and the second one and largest in amplitude is the actual firing of the cartridge.
    I relate to these vibrations interacting with each other as I do electrical power in a transmission line. When tuning an antennae you can change the impedence of the actual wire and antennae by adding capacitance and inductance and completely tune out the standing wave. A standing wave is the one that bounces back from the end of the antennae just like the waves bounce back from the muzzle and back towards the receiver...standing waves tend to modify the waves coming from the receiver...uhhhh?...sorta like waves in a pond traveling towards each other and with each meeting of wave crests they subtract from the height (amplitude) of each other.]]]
    "I hope that's not confusing!"
    * I think the barrel is actually & physically doing a clockwise kind of circle...but because the timing changes with each setting & because we have the ES's to deal with the actual barrel time is changing also...meaning the round exits when the barrel is in different positions along that circular trace. That is my explanation for the imprints showing the reversal of that circle...I don't believe it is actually the barel going back and forth along that circular trace.

    Anyway. . . with all that mumbo-jumbo behind, I am not sure where I want to test with the 5-shot proof groups. Certainly I want to see target #14...so perhaps I'll test a series from #12 ~ #16 with #14 right in the middle of those settings?
    As usual I get tunnel vision doing these tests so if I'm off-base somewhere in my thinking...one of you please point it out!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  4. #304
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting that target scale picture. My concern was the size of the center ring around the aiming dot and you showed that perfectly.

  5. #305
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    I can't get any pictures of the bedding job 'cause I think it may be glued in. Anyway, once the epoxy has cured, I'll give the bedding screws a good tightening.
    If it is glued in and groups aren't satisfactory, a few hours in the freezer may allow you to break the bond.
    Spell check doesn't work in Chrome, so if something is spelled wrong, it's just a typo that I missed.

  6. #306
    Boolit Man
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    That is good shooting.

    That is the same target we shoot at my local clubs . We shoot 2 of them at a match for a max of 500 and 25x . I think the top score shot at our club is 500 and 32x and my top score with my 40x is 500 and 29x.

    What sort of rest and bag setup are you using?

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    Tim... I shoot these target pages and use the target number printed by each individual target to represent the tuner setting from '0' ~ '24'. That 'range' is a full revolution of the front piece that turns against that scale you see that has been double stamped. Try not to let the double stamping confuse you, it did me for a while but now I don't even see it when I'm setting to a number.


    the left of the '5' is where I started this test. (sorry for the confusion boys!)
    Since there are 4 minor divisions between whole numbers along the base of the tuner, I look at those as '4.0-0 ~ 4.25-0 ~ 4.5-0 ~ 4.75-0 up to 5.0-0' ... each turn has 25 clicks numbered '0 ~ 24' so you see there is a full revolution between each 1/4 division between each whole number.




    Tim mentioned not using cheek pressure on the comb, I can't do that...the focal length to the eye has to be very exacting at this 36X power, that's why I have to use a firm cheek weld or that scope picture would be constantly dancing around 'in & out' of focus & there is no side to side room to wiggle the head around or you will see the picture in the lens move off center and disappear quickly.

    Where to test with 5-shot groups... Looking between targets 8 & 16 I thought I was seeing a clockwise tracing of the barrel vibrations as the bullet left the muzzle and I thought I would see it progress !
    So target 14 is setting 4.89, correct? Since conditions vary from day to day and time to time I would start shooting groups at 4.89 and then move up and down one click and then up and down two clicks that would be just 25 shots less warmers, sighters and fowlers. Maybe shoot two groups at 4.89 and the others. One group does not really tell a story.

    On the cheek weld thing, we each have our weak points and strong points and we have to do what lets us shoot our best but I think the cheek weld thing is adding a variable. Sweat, stubble, oily skin, dry stock, damp stock, bore cleaner. I know it might seem trivial but could make a difference. I shoot with higher power as much as 45x Leupold scopes and can get and hold my sight picture without touching the stock. I mean without touching the stock at all. I shoot my 6mm PPC free recoil, the gun sits on the bags and the only place I touch the gun is trigger finger on the trigger and thumb behind the trigger guard. Another thing about shooting this way is you are never trying to steer the gun with your shoulder.

    I don't have a good scope on my .22 lr bench rest rifle yet. It has a cheap 16 power scope, I use only the lightest cheek weld and a moderate shoulder pressure. I tried shooting it free recoil but the recoil is so low the bag drag is too inconsitant, the gun does not move the same amount with each shot so the recoil is more consistent with the shoulder pressure. It could be that with .22 lr the cheek weld will not matter because the recoil is so light but it would seem the cheek weld is pushing the gun to the side. I think the shape of the comb would matter. In recoil does the gun push the comb toward your face or away.

    No comment about chalk or rosin on the bags?

    Tim
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  8. #308
    Boolit Man
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    I my experience you do not want your cheek touching the stock unless you can get the exact same pressure on it everytime. The only contact i have with my rifle is my thumb lightly touching the back of the trigger guard and finger touching the trigger when i want to fire. Inconsitant pressure on the stock can cause vertical stringing. I even run offset scope rings to get my face away from the stock.

  9. #309
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrxR View Post
    That is good shooting.

    That is the same target we shoot at my local clubs . We shoot 2 of them at a match for a max of 500 and 25x . I think the top score shot at our club is 500 and 32x and my top score with my 40x is 500 and 29x.

    What sort of rest and bag setup are you using?
    It is a Caldwell rest front & rear. The front I made a wood peice to fit the fore stock and covered it in leather. The rear bag is sand filled and tight, it has ears.



    This is the Caldwell setup...I use it the most.



    I have a Poppas rest also but don't use it much, mostly when I'm trying to take all my influence out of the equation when doing some experiment.

    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  10. #310
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Which rest setup were you using on that last two shot testing target?

  11. #311
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    So target 14 is setting 4.89, correct? Since conditions vary from day to day and time to time I would start shooting groups at 4.89 and then move up and down one click and then up and down two clicks that would be just 25 shots less warmers, sighters and fowlers. Maybe shoot two groups at 4.89 and the others. One group does not really tell a story.

    On the cheek weld thing, we each have our weak points and strong points and we have to do what lets us shoot our best but I think the cheek weld thing is adding a variable. Sweat, stubble, oily skin, dry stock, damp stock, bore cleaner. I know it might seem trivial but could make a difference. I shoot with higher power as much as 45x Leupold scopes and can get and hold my sight picture without touching the stock. I mean without touching the stock at all. I shoot my 6mm PPC free recoil, the gun sits on the bags and the only place I touch the gun is trigger finger on the trigger and thumb behind the trigger guard. Another thing about shooting this way is you are never trying to steer the gun with your shoulder.

    I don't have a good scope on my .22 lr bench rest rifle yet. It has a cheap 16 power scope, I use only the lightest cheek weld and a moderate shoulder pressure. I tried shooting it free recoil but the recoil is so low the bag drag is too inconsitant, the gun does not move the same amount with each shot so the recoil is more consistent with the shoulder pressure. It could be that with .22 lr the cheek weld will not matter because the recoil is so light but it would seem the cheek weld is pushing the gun to the side. I think the shape of the comb would matter. In recoil does the gun push the comb toward your face or away.

    No comment about chalk or rosin on the bags?

    Tim
    Tim, this is the way I proofed the various settings when I did the minimum testing...3 targets with 5-shots each.



    My shoulder is just a door stop behind the butt and my cheek bone is in direct contact with a flat, squared corner riser extension. No fat of the side of my cheek caught up between the riser and the cheek bone...just the meat that is there. Pressure is light & straight down.
    I trigger like you do, thumb behind the trigger guard, finger on the trigger & I pinch a shot off by slowly increasing pressure...no snapping.
    I check that I am not influencing the stock by backing off enough so that I am not touching and the sight picture doesn't change.
    When I shoot the rifle comes straight back into my shoulder and after the shot I still have the same sight picture on the vertical. Elevation changes because the butt cones back a little bit on the bag.
    I snug the rifle up against the front forend stop on the front rest every shot to keep the same amount of stock on and overhanging the front of the rest.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  12. #312
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    Which rest setup were you using on that last two shot testing target?
    The Caldwell system taz...pictured above.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  13. #313
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ulav8r View Post
    If it is glued in and groups aren't satisfactory, a few hours in the freezer may allow you to break the bond.
    I've heard of that trick. Unfortunately I only have a fridge-freezer. I was thinking of using heat to soften the epoxy - that's worked before. I didn't use anything fancy and I did put a waxy stuff plus boot polish on the steel. But hopefully I won't need to take it off.

    OS, that 0.0-13 set is very impressive! It's all coming together now.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 05-08-2021 at 01:44 AM.
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  14. #314
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I got the proof targets done... Not really satisfied...the wind was worrisome and didn't allow me the the same conditions I had on the overall testing the other day.
    Here they are side by side...



    The wind was dead calm for the first two settings and just like someone flipped a switch, it got warm too early this morning and the wind started moving in almost all directions...
    Here's a larger look at today's follies.



    Thought for sure I'd see a good node in the -14 setting...I'd like to think it is still there but the wind kicked up and I honestly think it had some influence in those last 3 sets at the bottom.
    Oh well . . . gives me something to do.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  15. #315
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I would say that number 13 was pretty definitive.
    If there is a question in your mind about the last three, then you need to re-shoot them on a calm day.

  16. #316
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    I would say that all five are very close to a vertical "node." All of the 15 groups (75 shots) have only about a half inch of combined vertical variation. Most of the dispersion is horizontal, that could be wind, shooter, or maybe there is a horizontal "node" that is separate from the vertical "node."

    Tim
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  17. #317
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I keep thinking that I'm going to run across a node that'll shoot 3/8" and make a nice tidy lil'hole. We have seen it before, I hope that wasn't one of them days where the planets were aligned and I was holding my mouth just right!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    I keep thinking that I'm going to run across a node that'll shoot 3/8" and make a nice tidy lil'hole. We have seen it before, I hope that wasn't one of them days where the planets were aligned and I was holding my mouth just right!
    I think the gun, tuner, ammo are there, I see like almost half of the groups are 3/8" or less. I think your small groups are small enough, it is the big groups that are too big. The tuner will not make flyers nor stop them.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Those red X's are the problem, typically just one per group and most often it is off to the left. Could be the wind, could be something else.

    Your groups are a third wider than they are tall. None of the flyers are high or low they are left or right.

    Targets 21 and 22 have almost no vertical only horizontal dispersion.

    Tim
    Last edited by dtknowles; 05-09-2021 at 03:17 PM.
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  19. #319
    Boolit Man
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    It could be your Caldwell rear bag, ive never found them stable. Ive been using a protector rear bag(one of the big black and yellow ones with cordora ears and a carry handle). Its filled with heavy sand and weighs a fair bit.

  20. #320
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I reshot 2 of those settings this morning...it was perfect conditions. I tried to measure with a caliper this time & I WON'T MAKE THAT MISTAKE AGAIN!



    You can be off .025" and never notice it...you need microscope eyes, I measured these dang things several times and got different measurements each time...screw this!



    Anyway...rant over...I think these settings did pretty well. I have no idea if these numbers are even close, the groups look better today & that's all that counts.
    I think it's time to shoot some spot targets like I did the other day where I shot a 249...see if these settings will improve the X count?
    I need to do some practice & enjoyment shooting and change things up some...

    PS...I did re-stuff that Caldwell with sand and that helped quite a bit but them ears are really flimsy, I had to duct tape it to a block of wood also to get the the height I need to shoot over the rise in the yard...I think I measured it at 4.5" to the flat between the ears...I need a tall bag like this.



    I started to order another bag last week and hesitated. Maybe some of you might suggest (with a picture) the better rear bags?
    Last edited by OS OK; 05-09-2021 at 08:01 PM.
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
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LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check