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Thread: New to using a 'F-CLASS BR' at 50 yards...

  1. #281
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    A pretty astute crowd we have here . . . I went online searching and found more information, an owners manual.

    Forrest r...You are right as rain about these stock, now pillar screws....the rear is added. Here's a couple pages from that CZ452 manual...





    I noticed the bedding on the rear pillar and had questions in my mind about that also...well, until I examined the bottom side of that receiver and it looks to have a long radius from side to side, it doesn't look flat. That would explain the bedding between the outer edges of the tube/pillar & underside of the receiver in the rear. At least it satisfied me yesterday when I thought I was looking at a factory configuration.



    I think the CZ455 followed the discontinued 452 (1993-?) and if that is correct, they re-engineered & added another stock screw forward on the receiver, actually looks like they moved them both...





    This leaves me with quite a few questions now as I digest all this. I did write a note to the seller asking many questions about this build (he never responded, don't know whether the seller was the owner or inheritor and selling it) . I didn't meet him as the gunsmith was the middle man.
    Not ever seeing or shooting a rifle of this nature, I had no idea of what is involved in this class of weapon. I was impressed by everything when I first handled it in the shop...



    When I first saw this for sale in the gunshop...I thought..."what a great time to get into shooting precision F-Class, here's the whole set-up ready to go."
    Being a Neophyte, I am just now learning all the in's & out's that obviously take years to learn. So here I am as I stand uninformed in so many ways....but I am a quick learner and learning a good foundation is paramount before I am able to just take advice and act on it...I need the '101-Details Class' so I can make up my mind as to what sounds & is legitimate.

    So that leaves me with the question I ask of 303Guy... One of many questions but one that I need to sort out...

    Here's a question out of curiosity.
    Take a look at the machine rest and the groups it shot with this Eley Match @ 50 yards in the tunnel. Notice how well that receiver is bolted to the rest and the barrel is literally clamped.
    Notice the groups it has produced that have that horizontal displacement the same as I got today...ok?


    Explain to me, if you will...why that machine rest is making the same horizontal spread.


    That machine rest is the only thing I have to set a bar for performance with this rifle.
    So far . . . nobody is posting any 'un-cherry-picked' series of practice targets that'd show me that there is no horizontal displacement in what they consider a fine F-Class rifle.

    The part where I keep saying that, "I don't believe that the harmonics behave in a strictly vertical manner", is just that...I don't yet 'believe', I am assuming this with the little information I have thus far. I have explained why I believe this several times and don't see the need to repeat it again here.
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  2. #282
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Barra is right on. The Knox form is the bulge at the rear of a barrel that houses the chamber. Most 22's don't have a Knox form but I didn't know what else to call it. The chamber area of the barrel - so many words!

    OS, you know, when I saw how the machine rest arrangement was done, I was surprised. What I was expecting was the action clamped rigidly and the barrel free floated. I bet if one tapped the muzzle of that rifle it would ring like a bell. Essentially it becomes a short barrel rifle. My question there is how on earth they manage to clamp the barrel and the action in a machined bed like that without putting any stresses in the system?

    I would to what would happen if the action clamping block were to be removed.

    On the barrel harmonics of your rifle, I agree with you completely that it does not have a simple vertical motion and I've been thing all along that it looks like a bedding issue but thought "nah, it can't be".

    I still think that bedding job is the problem. Forrest has pointed out the compound over the metal pillar. I saw that too but thought it to be minor in comparison to the forward section of the bedding. I think Forrest's suggestion to pack the tip of the fore-end is a good one and indeed, the very simplest to do. You can change the contact pressure simply by prizing the barrel and fore-end apart and slipping a thicker of thinner packer. And that comes to the point I was trying to make - the barrel and fore-end can be flexed apart or together and the flexing begins right forward of the central action screw, mostly in the stock. That changes the contact pressure which can't be good.
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  3. #283
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    Barra is right on. The Knox form is the bulge at the rear of a barrel that houses the chamber. Most 22's don't have a Knox form but I didn't know what else to call it. The chamber area of the barrel - so many words!

    OS, you know, when I saw how the machine rest arrangement was done, I was surprised. What I was expecting was the action clamped rigidly and the barrel free floated. I bet if one tapped the muzzle of that rifle it would ring like a bell. Essentially it becomes a short barrel rifle. My question there is how on earth they manage to clamp the barrel and the action in a machined bed like that without putting any stresses in the system?

    I would to what would happen if the action clamping block were to be removed.

    On the barrel harmonics of your rifle, I agree with you completely that it does not have a simple vertical motion and I've been thing all along that it looks like a bedding issue but thought "nah, it can't be".

    I still think that bedding job is the problem. Forrest has pointed out the compound over the metal pillar. I saw that too but thought it to be minor in comparison to the forward section of the bedding. I think Forrest's suggestion to pack the tip of the fore-end is a good one and indeed, the very simplest to do. You can change the contact pressure simply by prizing the barrel and fore-end apart and slipping a thicker of thinner packer. And that comes to the point I was trying to make - the barrel and fore-end can be flexed apart or together and the flexing begins right forward of the central action screw, mostly in the stock. That changes the contact pressure which can't be good.
    I don't know what to think when I get so many comments without any empirical evidence...
    I just took the subject off my mind for the day and decided to go out and shoot for the giggle factor....get the scope aligned with the 0.0-13 tuner adjustment and work on me for a change, take my time and work on proper execution...one shot at a time.



    Sometimes I think I do too much experimenting.
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  4. #284
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    That is excellent shooting!!!!!!

    I just got back from the range. All in all a good trip.
    I experimented with screw tension on the 457 MTR and got that part dialed in. It was a very obvious test. At 25 inch lbs, poor group. At 30 inch lbs a good group. At 35 inch lbs a really bad group. With the last setting, I could actually feel the difference in the way the bolt worked in the rifle. Very stressed.
    I set it a 30 inch lbs and will leave it there.
    The 20 inch lbs setting for the 455 works well. Can't go higher without damaging the wood since there are no pillars in that one. Less torque opens up the groups.

    I am finding out both of these rifles prefer warmer temperatures. The best day I had with the 457 MTR last year was the last really warm day of the year. After that, things got much cooler and wind became a factor as well.
    Today, there was no noticeable wind on the range. Weather channel called for wind around 4 mph at a 90 degree angle to the shooting lane but the lane is surrounded by a couple of low hills and lots of trees. I never felt a breeze the entire time I was there.
    Temperature was 52 degrees when I started groups were okay but not great. When I finished, the temperature was 64 and sunny. Things were going really well for me then.
    I can't wait for warmer weather.
    All shooting was done at 50 yards.

    My last string of 5 different five shot groups were fired with Eley Match and measured .5", .25", .25", .625", .625". One flier in each of the last two groups opened them up from .25" to .625" All groups measured center to center on the farthest apart holes. These were fired during the warmest part of the session with the 455 varminter. This would have scored a 2350 out of a possible 2500 on the target I was using. ARA Factory Class target. The center ring is somewhat larger than the one OS OK is using. I believe he would have scored a 2450 out of 2500 on my target. Not entirely certain about his first shot but all the rest were easily in the 100 ring.
    I don't know the dimensions of his. On this target, the 10 ring measures 11/16 to the outside edge of the circle and is scored inside out. If the hole touches the outside color, it counts the lower score.You need to put 25 shots into a .5 inch group to shoot a perfect score at 50 yards.
    The 457 MTR shot consistent .5" groups earlier during the cooler temps with Eley Tenex.

    I noticed that as the day warmed up, the POI wandered a little. Just enough to be annoying up until the end of the session.

    I ended up firing nearly 350 rounds of ammo today with all the testing I was doing. I shot for nearly three hours.
    I am going to go downstairs and take the MTR out of the stock and see how the bedding looks. I haven;t done that yet. Might be some splinters in there or something.

  5. #285
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    That's great news TAZ . . .I know you been itchin to get out and held in by the weather. Great shooting to start the season, no doubt.

    Amazing isn't it how the rifle changes POI when it's sun warmed. Just that little bit of heat makes such a significant difference. I guess in your competitions your going to have to learn 'two POA's to get the same POI' if your going to have a good edge on the rest of the fellas. I think you should be able to start seeing when it's starting to change and you can progressively start changing to your new POA a bit at a time depending on how fast the change.
    Maybe you will have the opportunity to set the rifles in the sun at least a 1/2 hour prior to the shooting match and skip all the changing effects of the heat.
    Remember the time I used a meter to monitor the heat build up in that bull barrel on the MKII...those .22lr don't add much heat, not like the center-fires do.

    PS . . . that first shot was to confirm that the warmer target was telling the truth where the rifle was going to start shooting, then I made the scope changes noted in the top of each individual target before I shot the target. Then that change would appear on the target where the up & right notations are noted.
    I was just sneaking up on getting the scope dialed to that tuner setting of 0.0-13, I made 4 scope adjustments total in the 25 shots.
    Hopefully next time out I can just concentrate on the shooting and trust the scope is good to go?
    Last edited by OS OK; 05-05-2021 at 05:43 PM.
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  6. #286
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    If you had adjusted before the first shot, you would have fired a perfect score on my target! I am seriously impressed by the accuracy you are getting with that rifle.

    Aiming off to hit the target is something I learned in archery. Shooting 90 meters with a recurve bow, it takes time for the arrows to get there. You don't have time to make changes to the sights and still get the shots off in time. Plus you don't know if the wind will change to another direction just after you change your sight. So you learn to aim somewhere else on or even off the target in order to hit the center. Once I start shooting for score, I won't change the sights settings, I will change my point of aim to correct for changes in POI. It will work the same for shooting the rifle.
    I can aim away from the center spot easily enough with the optics I have on the rifle.

    During the last series of groups, when I was shooting my best today, the impact point didn't change more than the diameter of the bullets. All the groups were centered on the aiming spot except for the fliers.

    I may have an issue with the bedding on mt 457 MTR. Not certain yet, but I think the wood may be holding the front of the action up off the pillar a tiny bit. I don't know how much that will cause issues for accuracy. I need to study it some more. I am going to look at it again and maybe take some pictures and offer them here for study and opinions.

  7. #287
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I got the bedding issue figured out. When they put the wood finish on the stock, they put a layer of it over the top of the front pillar. It was a thick layer and was holding the action up off the pillar in an inconsistent manner. I noticed it was causing the stock to rock slightly when I positioned the stock by hand.
    I used a small razor blade and scraped the finish off the top of the pillar. Now the stock doesn't rock when fitting to the action. It also seemed to tighten up more solidly when the screws were torqued.
    It will be interesting to see if it improves the groups at all or no change. I would expect it to improve things.

    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    Tazman,

    I wonder if applying a bit of fingernail polish will "lock" the action screws so they do not lose torque setting. I suppose it is easy enough to just re-torque the screws every session...but do you think the torque changes during a session or just from sitting around after a couple of days?

    We know that vibration will loosen a screw. Do the vibrations of repeated firings cause the same effect?

    I like your idea to use a simple cheap torque wrench like you have. It would be interesting so see the "break away" torque needed to loosen the screws over time and how that changes.

    Interesting stuff!!
    I got the answer for you on that.
    My 457 MTR is pillar bedded. I torque the screws to 30 inch lbs. The torque necessary to loosen them is between 22 and 25 inch lbs. I tried it several times and it was pretty consistent. Since the torque seems to decrease over time. I would expect the torque necessary to loosen them would decrease as well.
    The screws are clean and lightly lubed.

    I also checked the torque on the screws after I got home and they were still tight as when I set them just before shooting.
    Looks like it was from sitting in the safe for a couple of weeks or so.
    Last edited by tazman; 05-05-2021 at 08:50 PM.

  8. #288
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    taz...You know what I'd do?

    I'd get a good set of data with that repaired CZ457 to set a benchmark for the improvement so far...

    Next I'd order a set of these pillars, made for the 457...they're shipped long so you trim them to the thickness of the stock you have, then get another set of data and another benchmark of improvement. from > [ https://www.petespillars.com/store/p..._Bedding_.html ] $28.00



    You could even go as far as a 2 section bedding, front and rear...this would prolly make that rifle shoot like crazy.
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  9. #289
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Intriguing as that is, I can't do that and still shoot in factory class.
    Also, the first paragraph states they can't be used in the MTR stock because it already has pillars installed. I would have to get an aftermarket stock, which would again boot me out of factory class.
    I could do it to the 455, so it is worth thinking about.

    If what I have done improves the MTR much beyond where it already is, I will be impressed.

  10. #290
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    Intriguing as that is, I can't do that and still shoot in factory class.
    Also, the first paragraph states they can't be used in the MTR stock because it already has pillars installed. I would have to get an aftermarket stock, which would again boot me out of factory class.
    I could do it to the 455, so it is worth thinking about.

    If what I have done improves the MTR much beyond where it already is, I will be impressed.
    This is one of the better videos I've seen about pillars & bedding.

    NEW BUILD PART 3 CZ 455 Lux 22LR Bedding Job!!
    https://youtu.be/_ZalD6FaxjE
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  11. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    That is excellent shooting!!!!!!........You need to put 25 shots into a .5 inch group to shoot a perfect score at 50 yards.
    The 457 MTR shot consistent .5" groups earlier during the cooler temps with Eley Tenex.
    What you don't state but I think is important, that .5 inch group needs to be in the center of the target. POI movement will kill your score no matter how small a group you shoot.

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  12. #292
    Boolit Master
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    Because the action is only restrained in the vertical, the horizontal and vertical modes of vibration might not be synchronized. A tuner setting that finds the vertical node might not be on the horizontal node. Ammo should have almost no variability in windage/horizontal since it is not very dependent on velocity. Horizontal is all wind or random or horizontal vibration of the firearm.
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  13. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    I am not sure I follow what your explaining.
    The dark grey bedding epoxy matches the underside of the receiver, even the contours along the side that locks it into place, it is a glove fit & has to be carefully reassembled and pressed into the bedding because the alignment is so precise. If I understand what your saying about the chamber, that cutout area is for the magazine well. all around that opening the epoxy is in contact with every part of the receiver.
    Maybe the picture is deceiving? Here's another picture with a little different angle...



    As far as the horizontal in these groupings go I have already tried to explain what I think it is outside of a bedding problem or funky/loose barrel fit.
    I have been trying to judge the performance of this CZ compared to the performance of a rifle action in a machine rest shooting the same Eley Match at 50 yards but in a tunnel. There is no wind, no loose action or barrel or operator error here...and I see the same basic irregular shapes of the groupings in respect to the horizontal displacement from a dead center one hole group.
    Not familiar with that rifle at all, but what it looks like to me is that the front screw is behind the magazine. I am more familiar with bedding 98 Mausers and Remington 700's, where the front screw is just behind the recoil shoulder. In this case, depending on how the barrel and action were supported during bedding, screw torque could bend the action and the loading/ejection port makes those stresses asymmetrical. That could lead to uneven stresses in the barrel and action that could affect harmonics of the system.

    Not being familiar with that gun, I can't say this is a bad thing, but I am suspicious of the bedding. If it were mine I would be tempted to add an action screw at the front of the receiver and then experiment with torque settings. I would start with higher torque on the front and rear screws and lower torque on the center screw. Still, no telling if all 3 should be the same torque, 2 the same and 1 lower, or all different. Who knows, certainly not me.
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  14. #294
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    On the other hand though, if that bedding is done well it would work just fine. The thing is, we have been seeing inexplicable group patterns that to me indicated something amiss. So In my mind we are looking for a possible cause, so when I saw that bedding, I immediately thought that might be it. But then the latest string of targets seems to indicate nothing wrong at all.

    But if it we me, I would try that thin paper under the barrel chamber area trick. I can't help thinking it might help.

    Just to be clear, I'm not saying the bedding is bad, I'm just saying it could possibly be a problem and is worth investigating. If that had been my gun from the beginning, I would probably have done the same thing the then owner did.

    See, I'm kinda like cheering for my team and I'm wanting my team to win. I come on here daily to see how OS is doing.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 05-06-2021 at 02:17 AM.
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  15. #295
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    What you don't state but I think is important, that .5 inch group needs to be in the center of the target. POI movement will kill your score no matter how small a group you shoot.

    Tim
    Absolutely right.
    That is why I have never shot a perfect score. I haven't been able to get the group to stay centered. POI seems to wander a little and when it does, thing go out.
    I am still gaining experience. Ar some point I will figure out why it does this. I can then either fix it or adapt to it.

    I may have found the problem last night in the bedding. Time will tell.

  16. #296
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I think we are down to wondering why and troubleshooting why the 'POI' wanders around. Basically, if it wanders by a bullet diameter, it's moving and we are wanting to see it shoot the same time after time. I know I do. I am looking for perfection...that's a high bar.

    For now, I'm going to table this issue about the bedding and the pillars & their locations. Not tabling it to ignore the issue but I think we have kicked that tire from every angle, there's been some fine suggestions to test & fix it and I appreciate all the detailed information in the dialogue.
    If I could only pass this rifle around among you fellas and have you each assemble it & feel how it goes together, how it feels so snug and has to be carefully aligned to get it to slip down in that bedding, I think that might change some points of view. I can't, but this issue is tabled until I can get more empirical evidence logged about the tuner's capabilities.

    I want to test the extreme setting now, see what the last .025" of adjustment has to offer and compare the two extremes...see if there's any information there that might indicate that with all the weight forward it will do a better job of dampening the harmonics. I'm sure that we will be in the middle of the adjustment next after the extreme.
    I wish I had unlimited ammo...if I did, I would shoot every adjustment from min. to max. just for the pure joy of seeing it documented and to have that evidence to study.
    It's easy to see that the tuner will dampen the ES's POI to some extent, but by how much and where? Obviously there are multiple locations where there are nodes to explore...I think I would be short-cutting to my disadvantage an opportunity to really understand this tuner.

    Another angle is the shooter. I believe that the shooter has the greatest responsibility & carries the heaviest weight when it comes to searching for precision. So many things a shooter must repeat time after time, shot to shot that must be identical each time. We humans are asking ourselves to become the machine. We are trying to emulate what the machine rest is capable of. From what I've seen of the work the machine rest has done in this .22lr caliber...I am not that impressed, it becomes glaringly evident that the ammo is a huge variable in this equation.

    With that said...today looks to be another day where I will have another null in the wind where it hardly moves...a great day to go after data from the extreme adjustment of the tuner . . . That is the menu for today.

    Along with gathering more data, I am also working on my ability to become the machine. I am a long way from that & may never get there, I am constantly coaching myself even as I am trying to get data. It is hard to split my attention between the two. You can see that yesterday when I shot just for 'grins & giggles' I did a much better job on my end of the rifle.
    Remember, I am a left handed shooter on a right handed rifle, I have an awkward way of racking the bolt and feeding another single round on the magazine sled...I am not using a magazine on purpose. (another variable in precision I think is there to rule out) I come up off the rifle each time I shoot, reload & go back down on the rifle for the next shot. Some would say that this is a bad thing, that I can't keep that all important cheek weld & eye alignment in the scope but I tend to think otherwise. Having this issue to contend with I think it improves my ability in shooting since it is always in my mind and I am always working to perfect that. Many times I have to reset my cheek weld if the eye relief from that 36X scope is not just right...many times I catch myself putting too much pressure on the stock from either my cheek weld or my shoulder creating an influence in the windage...all this has to be accounted for in every shot. The other day when I had to walk to the shop for a cleaning rod to bump that miss-fire out of chamber...I noticed my heartbeat in the scope when I got back to shooting. It would push the 1/8 MOA dot in the scope completely off the X about a bullet's width to the right.

    Well...enough ramblings for today, I need to get down in the shop and get prepared...I'll catch you'all this evening in my next posting.
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  17. #297
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Tuner Testing @ the Maximum adjustment . . .

    Had another day of 0 wind...worked out just fine. Take a look at the Maximum...the last .025" of weight forward on the muzzle.



    I think I can more clearly see the muzzle doing a circle (bore POA/POI) in it's response to the vibrations as the adjustments/dampening advance's.

    Compare the left side (minimum adjustment) to the right side (maximum adjustment).
    What do you see?



    I see that the maximum weight forward has a substantially increased dampening effect on the 2-shot groupings and I think I see wider 'potential' nodes.
    What series of targets would you take a closer look at, looking for a good node with the 3 target 5-shot groups?

    With this amount of dampening on the maximum end of adjustment, would you even bother to look somewhere in the middle range..say around 2.25-0 ~ 2.5-0 ? I think I'll wait to answer that question until I can explore a node within this range first.
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  18. #298
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Targets 12 through 18 all look good to me. Anywhere in there should work fine.

  19. #299
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    I’m more inclined to take 14-15 for the middle of the node.
    Certainly try the middle range if you like.
    I think you are ready to go out and raise hell at the range.
    Nice to see you got it nailed.

  20. #300
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    I don't know that Node is the right term because Node is supposed to be the position where the wave is fixed but 12 thru 16 seems to be where the barrel muzzle is reversing direction at it lowest extreme deflection and is thus moving the slowest and is starting to move up and to the left where before 12 it was moving down from the high right. I think it is moving in a circle. What would that setting be something like 4.5. You mentioned cheek weld. I don't let my cheek touch the stock. I know it is hard to get a sight picture without touching the stock but I would keep my cheek weld as light as possible. I would test for best shoulder pressure. I tried free recoil with .22 lr and that was not best but firm shoulder pressure was not best either. I think it depends on the stock and the friction on the bags. Do you rosin or chalk the bags. I don't see any residue so I guess no. Bag drag is a real variable from day to day and can cause POI changes if humidity and friction change.
    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check