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Thread: New to using a 'F-CLASS BR' at 50 yards...

  1. #221
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    I shoot a monthly 100 yard BR 22LR match. Usually 8 - 12 shooters and the competition is tough as about 50% of them are also dedicated 50 yard BR shooters. We shoot on the 200 yard IBS hunter target. We use the inner ring (10 ring as the X ring and the 9 ring as the 10 ring. We shoot two relays with the bottom targets being spotter and then shoot 10 shots on two targets for score. We have 30 minutes to shoot them in but most are done in about 20 minutes then we score the first relay and then shoot the second relay. The match is almost always won by X count with several "400" scores. However, as the recent posts point out being able to judge the wind and hold for it is paramount to a good score.

    Here is my scored target from the last match (sighters are left out). I shot bottom left then left top in first relay. The wind was from behind coming out of 4 - 6 o'clock but switching to 7 o'clock. It was running 6 - 10 mph but gusting higher occasionally and also dropping to almost 0 mph momentarily. I us an original Remington M37 made in the early '50s with no modification to it. I made a Weaver cantilever base with the base securing in the D&T'd original scope base holes on the barrel. I have a gen 2 Weaver T35 on it with fine crosshairs and small dot. I shoot Lapua Midas Match 22LR and in a clam or with no wind it is zeroed dead on POA to POI. During the first relay, based on the impact of 5 sighters, I held half way between the X and 10 ring [actual 10 and 9 ring on the target] at 3:30 - 4:00 o'clock. I did pretty well with a 200-18X on the first relay.

    The second relay was not so good as the wind really picked up running 6 - 14 MPH with higher gusts and a lot of switching and dying. My first 10 shots for record (bottom right target) were ok but I almost got caught by a strong gust on the last shot. Then it really got dicey as the wind conditions worsened. From moans and groans down the line plus a couple expletive deletes I could tell some had dropped a point or two. I knuckled down and tried judging the best I could and almost got caught by a couple really strong gusts out of 5 'clock and once when the wind fell to 0 and the bullet hit right at point of aim (that 3:30 ten on the line....). I held it together for a 200-11X and a total score of 400-29X. That gave me 2nd place as the winner had 4 more Xs. Still the old M37 shot very well against the winners Anschutz with 45X NightForce BR scope along with him being an excellent shot.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 04-29-2021 at 08:38 AM.
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  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    There are a number of things about that wind drift chart that came as a surprise to me. Not intuitive at all. Perhaps I will need to write stuff down until I get more experience with it.
    That chart reflects "spin drift" and that is dependent on right or left hand rifling if it has an effect at all. It's basically the bite of the bullets rotation verse the side pressure from the wind. Color me a sceptic on this one at least for centerfire rifle.

    I don't play the RF BR or air BR games but I do shoot long range centerfire competition. When testing loads at 600 to 1,000 yard shooting waterline tests is used a lots to test test the ammunitions ability to hold elevation. I have not noted in difference in the waterline holding ability in switching condition or during a strong pickup. My goal is 3 inch's but reality is 5 inches is acceptable elevation holding at 1,000 yards for the games I play. I've had groups 3 feet wide that still held 3" elevation at a 1,000 yards??

    Pellet rifle or rimfire might be more pronounced???
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 04-28-2021 at 04:27 PM.
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  3. #223
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Thanks for that write up Forrest r. It's too early in the morning or I'd go have a beer! Or is it too early?

    Well, the way I see it, one of two things can happen - either my head will explode or I can have a lot of fun!

    I don't have a target rifle but I can still do what I can to wring out whatever the rifle is cable of. I'm planning to moving over to the 100m range on Sunday so I'll see how that goes. I'll spend the first part of the morning at 25m where I'll attempt to sight the rifle in for 100m. I'll just be playing with three rifles instead of the usual however many.

    I was playing with JBM ballistics yesterday and looking at wind drift and boolit drop. It's amazing the difference HV makes. Anyway, what struck me was how quickly a HV boolit went transonic. I always thought it was around the 75m/yd mark. Nope - think 30-40 yds. Anyway, I have sub-sonic ammo. I checked the altitude/temperature effects and indeed, only temperature influences the speed of sound but altitude influences velocity drop quite a bit! So does temperature. The higher the temperature the less the bullet slows, likewise with altitude so at higher altitude and higher temperature, the reduction in bullet drag is significant. I'm at sea level so I have maximum velocity drop. At least altitude is constant but air temperature can change quite a bit during a shooting session. I've just realized - in winter it doesn't get warm in the day! How does rain affect bullet drift?

    Edit to add: Nice shooting Larry!
    Last edited by 303Guy; 04-28-2021 at 05:03 PM.
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  4. #224
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Thank you so very much Gentleman....M-Tecs & Larry Gibson for chiming in with your experience in .22lr BR. As you can see, this thread has been a 'huge learning curve' for several of us Neophytes...your information & data is so much appreciated!

    I have been mulling on different ways to approach this 'Reading the Wind & Doping' ... up until now we haven't considered the wind at all and have been concerned with the technicalities of a sound rifle and matching the rifle with the best ammunition we could afford...next it was proper form & bench accessories to send the rounds as best as possible...but...now the wind has to be considered and mastered as well.

    First thing I did was to build new wind flags from the heaviest engineers tape I have...made them 26" long with a reinforced swivel tab on top and approximately 24" of free ribbon to show the wind strength and direction. I put a spike in the bottom of an old broom handle and a screw in the top to hold the ribbon...



    The spike in the bottom of the broom handle is to stab in the dirt...the broom handle has the ribbons elevated up maybe 12" over the height of my barrel on the bench...



    Today I don't have any method of judging wind velocity and don't have any proper targets to gather data on...but...they are on order & will arrive soon...



    Today, I had one box of 40 rounds left of the Eley 'tenex' & have been using that in the Savage MKII. (a 'peep & globe sighted rifle I have temporarily installed a scope on to find a benchmark of accuracy for that rifle, then I'll go back to the peep & globe) I thought I'd experiment with that rifle even though this thread is about my CZ452, I shoot Eley Match in the CZ and am flat out until tomorrow, got 3 bricks coming to my FFL.

    Anyway...here's the follies for today...(I should mention that this MKII is currently sighted for the POI to hit a 1/4" high of the cross hairs of the target spot right on center line...that was set that way so I wouldn't obliterate the center of the spot and make it hard to align the scope, I intend to readjust the scope so that the POA will be the POI now that we are dealing with the wind)



    I wanted to see if this right hand twist would duplicate any of the 'predicted POI's in the charts previously posted.
    I had the bright idea that I might get away with shooting the first round on each spot with a POA on the cross marks of the target center.
    Next note on the target the conditions of that first shot as far as the wind direction and strength of the wind indicated by the flag marks (look at my notes on the target top left, I think I explained how I marked the spots.
    After the first shot I saw the deflection of that shot for the wind value (each first shot is marked -1 w/a line pointing to it's POI)...I simply went across the cross hairs on the opposite direction by the same amount of deflection (moved the POA against the wind direction indicated across the verticle line), left & right & over and under the horizontal. The small circles with the cross hairs in them is the 2'nd through 5'th POA for the group......I hope that makes sense.
    Except for the one spot I ignored the wind, all were shot in that manner.
    I was hoping that would account for the direction and speed if I were to try to shoot the remaining 4 with the same conditions as the first shot.

    I thought i might get away with some easy way to read & dope without all the math involved that I've read about.
    Well...it sorta didn't work.
    As you can see on the spots (cross hairs of the targets) the flag directions and amplitude were sometimes in several directions...the only flag I could see when I was in the scope was the one nearest me at the bench, I can see it with my non scope eye.



    THIS RABBIT HOLE JUST GOT A LOT DEEPER . . . I hope we together can figure this thing out?!

    Note: One of the previous articles posted, mentions that a light .22lr projectile responds differently to the wind at sub sonic speed than our center-fires do as they are designed to help defeat the wind's influence in their weight and cruise missile shapes. There's a lot more they explained also...
    Last edited by OS OK; 04-28-2021 at 05:55 PM.
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  5. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
    Wind flags, wind charts, doping the wind only works if your firearm is setup correctly. It all starts with the action screws and a good torque wrench. On any rifle I plan on competing with or want to wring every last bit of accuracy I can out of it. I replace the action screws with allen headed screws. This target is a centerfire target but it shows just how much the torque settings on the hold down screws can affect the target.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    On the right are 2 10-shot groups @ 100yds. The top group was shot with 40 inch #'s of torque and was 3 1/2" wide by 1 1/4" long. The bottom group was shot with 45 inch #'s of torque on the hold down screws and was 2 1/4" wide and 2" long.

    You need round groups from your torque settings. It's nothing for me to check the torques on the hold down screws between set/cards.

    Once the hold down screw Torques are established then it's time to test ammo over a chronograph on a calm day. Once the ammo I wanted to use was found thru testing I buy +/- 2 cases of that lot. Then I'd go back out on a calm day with that ammo and a chronograph and a zero the rifle. I used a scope with lockers and once the rifle was zero'd I lock the scope in.

    A chronograph is your friend. Wind flags & wind meters are your friends.
    Always shoot over a chronograph it will tell you if you had a bad round along with telling you if your firearm is getting consistent ignition. When practicing always aim at the center of the target. Record every shot on a plot paper marking where it hit on the target along with the speed (fps), wind direction & wind speed. Do this in different wind conditions and try to record at least 1000 shots.

    Doing this gives you a baseline of what the wind will do with your rifle/ammo combo. You can make your own chart for doping the wind. I used to make mine like the clock 1 pictured in os ok's post. I would draw circles inside the clock like pictured above. The circles would be actual measurements of what the wind speed would do to that rifle/ammo combo I was using IE wind drift for 5mph, 10mph, 15mph.

    Don't mean to be long winded but I can't stress it enough. It all starts with the hold down screw torques. Do you really think those hold down screws will have the same torque setting when you set your torques last week in a 70* house 2 weeks ago. Then went to the range in 80* weather and let the rifle sit in the sun for hour??

    When your shooting gold balls @ 50yds it doesn't matter. When you're trying to do head shots on flies @ 50yds little things show up rather fast.

    Myself, if I wanted to get back into this game I'd take my rifle for a 3 hour ride to lapua Down in columbus. They have a test center there (indoor tunnel). You give them your rifle and $100 and tell them what ammo your looking at buying. Go to lunch and come back or stay and watch. They will have test targets with the different lots of ammo they tested along with the es's & sd's of your rifle and their own testing of that ammo. Then it's a simple matter of buying 2 or 3 cases of that ammo.

    Then it would be go to the range & get the torque setting, zero the rifle and get the wind dope card for that ammo. Then go out play with the big boys.

    I do find it odd that there's been talk about holding the rifle the same every shot, pressures on the stock affecting groups, etc. But very little is said about torque wrenches. I used to use a snap-on 1/4" torque wrench and switched over to a wheeler fat wrench a decade ago.

    A chronograph is a huge part of making sure your rifle is mechanically sound. More pointedly the bolt/fp hits. If I go to lapua and they test ammo and their test rifle does a 7fps sd and 14fps es with a specific lot of ammo and my rifle does 22fps sd and a 31fps es with the same ammo. That's called a clue, that rifle will never group well and those groups will never be to the same poa. I've bought a case of ammo in the past simply because it had extremely low sd's & es's. Could care less what it did on paper and burned most of it up without ever putting up a target. I used it to check for consistent ignition of a firearm over a chronograph. Bolts do get dirty, oils can and will affect fp hits. After cleaning and re assembling a bolt I would test it with that ammo to make sure everything was correct.

    Anyway you'll be doing nothing more than spitting into the wind if you don't get everything else nailed down. Kind of hard saying I'm getting low right hits with a nw 10mph wind when you're getting the same off center hits on a calm day.
    Torque does not matter, my action is glued into the fiberglass stock
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  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    Thank you so very much Gentleman....M-Tecs & Larry Gibson for chiming in with your experience in .22lr BR. As you can see, this thread has been a 'huge learning curve' for several of us Neophytes...your information & data is so much appreciated!

    I have been mulling on different ways to approach this 'Reading the Wind & Doping' ... up until now we haven't considered the wind at all and have been concerned with the technicalities of a sound rifle and matching the rifle with the best ammunition we could afford...next it was proper form & bench accessories to send the rounds as best as possible...but...now the wind has to be considered and mastered as well.

    First thing I did was to build new wind flags from the heaviest engineers tape I have...made them 26" long with a reinforced swivel tab on top and approximately 24" of free ribbon to show the wind strength and direction. I put a spike in the bottom of an old broom handle and a screw in the top to hold the ribbon...



    The spike in the bottom of the broom handle is to stab in the dirt...the broom handle has the ribbons elevated up maybe 12" over the height of my barrel on the bench...



    Today I don't have any method of judging wind velocity and don't have any proper targets to gather data on...but...they are on order & will arrive soon...



    Today, I had one box of 40 rounds left of the Eley 'tenex' & have been using that in the Savage MKII. (a 'peep & globe sighted rifle I have temporarily installed a scope on to find a benchmark of accuracy for that rifle, then I'll go back to the peep & globe) I thought I'd experiment with that rifle even though this thread is about my CZ452, I shoot Eley Match in the CZ and am flat out until tomorrow, got 3 bricks coming to my FFL.

    Anyway...here's the follies for today...(I should mention that this MKII is currently sighted for the POI to hit a 1/4" high of the cross hairs of the target spot right on center line...that was set that way so I wouldn't obliterate the center of the spot and make it hard to align the scope, I intend to readjust the scope so that the POA will be the POI now that we are dealing with the wind)



    I wanted to see if this right hand twist would duplicate any of the 'predicted POI's in the charts previously posted.
    I had the bright idea that I might get away with shooting the first round on each spot with a POA on the cross marks of the target center.
    Next note on the target the conditions of that first shot as far as the wind direction and strength of the wind indicated by the flag marks (look at my notes on the target top left, I think I explained how I marked the spots.
    After the first shot I saw the deflection of that shot for the wind value (each first shot is marked -1 w/a line pointing to it's POI)...I simply went across the cross hairs on the opposite direction by the same amount of deflection (moved the POA against the wind direction indicated across the verticle line), left & right & over and under the horizontal. The small circles with the cross hairs in them is the 2'nd through 5'th POA for the group......I hope that makes sense.
    Except for the one spot I ignored the wind, all were shot in that manner.
    I was hoping that would account for the direction and speed if I were to try to shoot the remaining 4 with the same conditions as the first shot.

    I thought i might get away with some easy way to read & dope without all the math involved that I've read about.
    Well...it sorta didn't work.
    As you can see on the spots (cross hairs of the targets) the flag directions and amplitude were sometimes in several directions...the only flag I could see when I was in the scope was the one nearest me at the bench, I can see it with my non scope eye.



    THIS RABBIT HOLE JUST GOT A LOT DEEPER . . . I hope we together can figure this thing out?!

    Note: One of the previous articles posted, mentions that a light .22lr projectile responds differently to the wind at sub sonic speed than our center-fires do as they are designed to help defeat the wind's influence in their weight and cruise missile shapes. There's a lot more they explained also...
    After the first shot you used the same hold off for the next 4 but I doubt the wind stayed the same for all 5 shots. You flagged each group with one condition but did the condition hold for the whole group. One of the worst things that can happen when shooting a group is for a condition to reverse when you are holding off. If you are holding right of center for a wind from your left but you don't notice that the wind died or worse shifted to being from the right. Better to not hold off than to be holding off in the wrong direction.

    You need to be able to see the wind flags while you are firing. They either need to be visible thru the scope or you need to shoot with both eyes open (you should always shoot with both eyes open) and be able to see the flags with you other eye just by switching your concentration.

    Tim
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  7. #227
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    Torque does not matter, my action is glued into the fiberglass stock
    Your exactly the shooter I like to go up against when $$$ involved

  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    I shoot a monthly 100 yard BR 22LR match. Usually 8 - 12 shooters and the competition is tough as about 50% of them are also dedicated 50 yard BR shooters. We shoot on the 200 yard IBS hunter target. We use the inner ring (10 ring as the X ring and the 9 ring as the 10 ring. We shoot two relays with the bottom targets being spotter and then shoot 10 shots on two targets for score. We have 30 minutes to shoot them in but most are done in about 20 minutes then we score the first relay and then shoot the second relay. The match is almost always won by X count with several "400" scores. However, as the recent posts point out being able to judge the wind and hold for it is paramount to a good score.

    Here is my scored target from the last match (sighters are left out). I shot bottom left then left top in first relay. The wind was from behind coming out of 4 - 6 o'clock but switching to 7 o'clock. It was running 6 - 10 mph but gusting higher occasionally and also dropping to almost 0 mph momentarily. I us an original Remington M37 made in the early '50s with no modification to it. I made a Weaver cantilever base with the base securing in the D&T'd original scope base holes on the barrel. I have a gen 2 Weaver T35 on it with fine crosshairs and small dot. I shoot Lapua Midas Match 22LR and in a clam or with no wind it is zeroed dead on POA to POI. During the first relay, based on the impact of 5 sighters, I held half way between the X and 10 ring [actual 10 and 9 ring on the target] at 3:30 - 4:00 o'clock. I did pretty well with a 100-18X on the first relay.

    The second relay was not so good as the wind really picked up running 6 - 14 MPH with higher gusts and a lot of switching and dying. My first 10 shots for record (bottom right target) were ok but I almost got caught by a strong gust on the last shot. Then it really got dicey as the wind conditions worsened. From moans and groans down the line plus a couple expletive deletes I could tell some had dropped a point or two. I knuckled down and tried judging the best I could and almost got caught by a couple really strong gusts out of 5 'clock and once when the wind fell to 0 and the bullet hit right at point of aim (that 3:30 ten on the line....). I held it together for a 100-11X and a total score of 400-29X. That gave me 2nd place as the winner had 4 more Xs. Still the old M37 shot very well against the winners Anschutz with 45X NightForce BR scope along with him being an excellent shot.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I would love to have a comp like that here. Nice shooting. You made a tiny error in reporting your scores for each relay. 200-18x and 200-11x not 100.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

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  9. #229
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Conditions were variable but had a little duration, I waited for less than a minute and the conditions would more or less return and then I'd shoot.

    I do shoot with both eyes open with scope, irons or peep & globe. I could only see the flag nearest the bench when I was on the scope, could see it with my non scope eye...I'll have to move them around so I can see all of them at the same time.

    Thanks Tim...
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  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    I shoot a monthly 100 yard BR 22LR match. Usually 8 - 12 shooters and the competition is tough as about 50% of them are also dedicated 50 yard BR shooters. We shoot on the 200 yard IBS hunter target. We use the inner ring (10 ring as the X ring and the 9 ring as the 10 ring. We shoot two relays with the bottom targets being spotter and then shoot 10 shots on two targets for score. We have 30 minutes to shoot them in but most are done in about 20 minutes then we score the first relay and then shoot the second relay. The match is almost always won by X count with several "400" scores. However, as the recent posts point out being able to judge the wind and hold for it is paramount to a good score.

    Here is my scored target from the last match (sighters are left out). I shot bottom left then left top in first relay. The wind was from behind coming out of 4 - 6 o'clock but switching to 7 o'clock. It was running 6 - 10 mph but gusting higher occasionally and also dropping to almost 0 mph momentarily. I us an original Remington M37 made in the early '50s with no modification to it. I made a Weaver cantilever base with the base securing in the D&T'd original scope base holes on the barrel. I have a gen 2 Weaver T35 on it with fine crosshairs and small dot. I shoot Lapua Midas Match 22LR and in a clam or with no wind it is zeroed dead on POA to POI. During the first relay, based on the impact of 5 sighters, I held half way between the X and 10 ring [actual 10 and 9 ring on the target] at 3:30 - 4:00 o'clock. I did pretty well with a 100-18X on the first relay.

    The second relay was not so good as the wind really picked up running 6 - 14 MPH with higher gusts and a lot of switching and dying. My first 10 shots for record (bottom right target) were ok but I almost got caught by a strong gust on the last shot. Then it really got dicey as the wind conditions worsened. From moans and groans down the line plus a couple expletive deletes I could tell some had dropped a point or two. I knuckled down and tried judging the best I could and almost got caught by a couple really strong gusts out of 5 'clock and once when the wind fell to 0 and the bullet hit right at point of aim (that 3:30 ten on the line....). I held it together for a 100-11X and a total score of 400-29X. That gave me 2nd place as the winner had 4 more Xs. Still the old M37 shot very well against the winners Anschutz with 45X NightForce BR scope along with him being an excellent shot.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    You and that M37 are not too shabby. Both your groups in the first relay were less than MOA and that is 10 shots each. Yeah, the wind opened up the groups in the second relay but is seems maybe you handled the wind better than most, still not dropping a point and that would seem to be critical.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  11. #231
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    How do you guys manage to shoot with both eyes open? I've heard of it but have never done it and never been able to do it (bearing in mind I only heard of it later in life). I tried again last range session. Maybe it's just how I learned to shoot as a kid and got too old to change or learn new tricks. What's the reason for shooting with both eyes open?
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  12. #232
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    How do you guys manage to shoot with both eyes open? I've heard of it but have never done it and never been able to do it (bearing in mind I only heard of it later in life). I tried again last range session. Maybe it's just how I learned to shoot as a kid and got too old to change or learn new tricks. What's the reason for shooting with both eyes open?
    There are a number of reasons for using both eyes to shoot.
    You can pick up the target and the sights quicker when using iron sights.
    It also helps getting the scope on target when using optics.
    You also can see other things in the general field of view as you are aiming when using either optics or irons. This can be important for viewing wind flags without moving your head from the stock. Also seeing another deer walk out from behind a tree while aiming at a different one.

    In my case, it allows me to see both the sights on my firearm and the target clearly since my eyes can only focus in a fairly limited range. My dominant eye can only focus clearly within about 5 feet without my glasses on but I can see the sights clearly. With my glasses on, I lose that close focus ability. My non dominant eye sees better at a distance but not close. With both eyes open I see everything.

    Learning to use both eyes with a scope is a matter of concentration. With practice, you will find you can focus your mind and only really see what is in front of your aiming eye even when your other eye is open. You can learn this by partially closing the non aiming eye until your mind blocks it out. eventually you can leave it completely open and still only see through the optic. With practice, you can train your mind to switch back and forth between your eyes when using a scope so you see with whichever eye you need to.
    Sounds weird but it works.

    From his description, this is exactly what OS OK is doing. I will admit it is easier to learn at a young age but even older people can learn it.

  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    There are a number of reasons for using both eyes to shoot.
    You can pick up the target and the sights quicker when using iron sights.
    It also helps getting the scope on target when using optics.
    You also can see other things in the general field of view as you are aiming when using either optics or irons. This can be important for viewing wind flags without moving your head from the stock. Also seeing another deer walk out from behind a tree while aiming at a different one.

    In my case, it allows me to see both the sights on my firearm and the target clearly since my eyes can only focus in a fairly limited range. My dominant eye can only focus clearly within about 5 feet without my glasses on but I can see the sights clearly. With my glasses on, I lose that close focus ability. My non dominant eye sees better at a distance but not close. With both eyes open I see everything.

    Learning to use both eyes with a scope is a matter of concentration. With practice, you will find you can focus your mind and only really see what is in front of your aiming eye even when your other eye is open. You can learn this by partially closing the non aiming eye until your mind blocks it out. eventually you can leave it completely open and still only see through the optic. With practice, you can train your mind to switch back and forth between your eyes when using a scope so you see with whichever eye you need to.
    Sounds weird but it works.

    From his description, this is exactly what OS OK is doing. I will admit it is easier to learn at a young age but even older people can learn it.
    Very true unless you are opposite eye dominant. I didn't start shooting with both eyes open until my late 20's.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
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  14. #234
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    How do you guys manage to shoot with both eyes open? I've heard of it but have never done it and never been able to do it (bearing in mind I only heard of it later in life). I tried again last range session. Maybe it's just how I learned to shoot as a kid and got too old to change or learn new tricks. What's the reason for shooting with both eyes open?
    I've always done it just to be aware of everything on the range in front of me. My last dog Bubbie would roam around when I'm shooting and payed me no mind...I don't think I could concentrate on my shot if I didn't have it open at least for that.
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  15. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    How do you guys manage to shoot with both eyes open? I've heard of it but have never done it and never been able to do it (bearing in mind I only heard of it later in life). I tried again last range session. Maybe it's just how I learned to shoot as a kid and got too old to change or learn new tricks. What's the reason for shooting with both eyes open?
    There are a few reasons to shoot with both eyes open. For combat, self-defence and hunting, both eyes open gives you greater peripheral vision.. For long range sessions it reduces eye strain. Keeping one eye closed leads to headaches and eye twitches. For bench rest shooting where you can't get all the wind flags in your line of vision thru the scope it lets you check the wind flags without totally losing your sight picture on the target.

    If you have a hard time focusing on the targetfront sight with both eyes openyou can put a patch or a blinder on your non dominate eye and that will eliminate the eye strain but it will limit your peripheral vision and your ability to watch the wind flags.

    I sometimes get lazy shooting pistols with iron sights and close my other eye because to keep both eyes open requires a kind of relaxing of my mind that is sometimes hard to achieve. If I try to force it I end up fighting for the right sight picture and it slows me down. For rapid fire I almost always have to close one eye.

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  16. #236
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Thanks for that, all. Eye strain certainly gets me at the range but then I find myself getting generally tired too.

    Once upon a time, I was out hunting with guide. I had an antelope in my sights and was just choosing the target spot and about to squeeze the shot when a fuzzy head appeared in my scope! The guide for some reason ran forward and into the line of fire! If I had had both eyes open I would have seen it happening. In those days I had never heard of shooting with both eyes open. Other than point and shoot pistol or shotgun. Both the guide and I were lucky, he more so than me.

    Well, I shall give it a try on the range again.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 04-29-2021 at 02:01 AM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  17. #237
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    Something of interest I came across. I don't know where one would get one of these.

    https://www.accurateshooter.com/opti...r-iron-sights/

    Talking about glued in actions, I have a rifle with a glued in action. It wasn't supposed to be but the release agent I used didn't work when bedding. It hasn't given me any cause for concern. A hot air gun would get it off if needed but the gun shoots well so no need to do anything. Not a 22lr but close enough - a 22 hornet. I only have two guns actually worth anything and this is one of them. My dad's 22 Mauser is the other one.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 04-29-2021 at 02:11 AM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  18. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    Something of interest I came across. I don't know where one would get one of these.

    https://www.accurateshooter.com/opti...r-iron-sights/
    They have been out of business of a long time. I want one but I waited to long. Creedmoor Sports was the last place that I know that sold them but that was a long time ago.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  19. #239
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Picked up 3 bricks of Eley Match today... Thought I might do an evaluation of the ammo in the CZ452 with a bare barrel (no tuner) to get a baseline on this ammo...
    box says it's 1,055 fps.

    I got a little different numbers but they were consistent...



    They seem to be good in the bare barrel but tomorrow I'll reinstall the tuner and get some baseline 2 shot testing done and see if there's a possibility of it making these groups a bit tighter.
    These were the first 50 shots in a wet swabbed barrel.

    tazman . . . are you satisfied with your ammo? How is it shooting?
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  20. #240
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Haven't gotten to the range yet. Between the weather(rain and high winds on alternating days) and my wife wanting me to do all sorts of things and the truck breaking down, I haven't gotten it done. Sorry.
    I am definitely feeling withdrawal symptoms.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check