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Thread: New to using a 'F-CLASS BR' at 50 yards...

  1. #201
    Boolit Master
    dtknowles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    I am a tyro when it comes to reading the wind and what it foes to bullets. I have a basic knowledge of what to expect from a side wind but not from a front wind or tailing wind. Or even a quartering wind, for that matter.
    From what you are saying, you look at how things are going and set up for the most prevalent circumstances and only take your shots when those circumstances are in effect.
    My problem is going to be the competition I am intending to pursue has a time limit and I may need to take shots when other conditions arise. I need to know how to compensate.
    I currently do not have this knowledge.

    Since I was an Olympic style archer(lobbing arrows 90 meters to a target), I know how to aim off if I know what the projectile is going to do. I just don't know what is happening here for certain.
    Do you know of a good text or video that explains what happens when the winds change or swirl? Particularly as it relates to using a 22lr at 50-100 yards.
    I am certainly not an expert at reading the wind. I can do complicated math but I don't put much stock in ballistics calcs. To many unaccounted for variables. If I want to know what the wind/mirage is going to do to a shot I shoot the sighter target. One way to beat the wind for groups is shoot fast before the condition can change. Shooting for score that is too hard for me, I can't change targets fast enough to get a whole string run in one condition.

    I have never had luck holding off to compensate for the windage. I will use the windage adjustments on my scope. I want to keep the same POA as it is precise either a dot or cross. Maybe with something other than a fine crosshair you can use the windage marks on the reticle.

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  2. #202
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Here I am still struggling to get decent groups with what I've got and now there's the wind to contend with! So far at my range I don't think the wind has been a factor, specially at 25m.

    Out in the field the wind has been a factor and I had no idea how to cope with it. Once I did compensate for a strong cross wind. I aimed a bit to the left and hit a bit to the left - exactly where I aimed!

    I suppose now would be a good time to start paying attention to the wind and it's effects.

    OS, this idea of using different materials for wind flags - a thought just came to mind, what about an anemometer?



    There are a range of them on amazon. https://www.amazon.com/Wind-Speed-Ga...&node=13825011

    I think those are NZ dollar prices so would be about 75% in US dollars.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 04-26-2021 at 04:12 PM.
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  3. #203
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    How about this?---https://www.killoughshootingsports.com/competition-wind-flags/115-besche-win-de-cator.html

    Click image for larger version. 

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    It gives you nearly everything.

  4. #204
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I used to shoot Olympic style archery. Part of the program was 36 arrows shot at 90 meters(4 feet short of 100 yards).
    We were required to use recurve bows so the arrows weren't going all that fast.
    The wind would blow them around pretty well during the flight time to the target.
    Once I was shooting at the range in Forest Park in St Louis Mo. The wind was always treacherous there due to the surrounding buildings.
    There was no wind on the shooting line, The flags from 10 meters to 30 meters were blowing to the left, the flags from 40 meters to 60 meters were blowing to the right, the flags from 65 meters to 80 meters were blowing to the left again, and the flags at the targets were hanging straight sown indicating no wind at all.
    Any of those flags would suddenly stop blowing at any given second and might start up again just as you released the arrow. Tough conditions.

  5. #205
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    Here I am still struggling to get decent groups with what I've got and now there's the wind to contend with! So far at my range I don't think the wind has been a factor, specially at 25m.

    Out in the field the wind has been a factor and I had no idea how to cope with it. Once I did compensate for a strong cross wind. I aimed a bit to the left and hit a bit to the left - exactly where I aimed!

    I suppose now would be a good time to start paying attention to the wind and it's effects.

    OS, this idea of using different materials for wind flags - a thought just came to mind, what about an anemometer?



    There are a range of them on amazon. https://www.amazon.com/Wind-Speed-Ga...&node=13825011

    I think those are NZ dollar prices so would be about 75% in US dollars.
    I bought these this morning. Thanks though.



    Here's the plan:
    * try to change the flags so that they read 10-15mph @ 90º deflection
    *calibrate them @ 90º and calibrate several angles of them when they are not at 90º.
    *Shoot one round per target and note the flags direction and mph on each target shot.
    *Examine the results for how much deflection & POI of the rounds, I have a right hand twist in the CZ, evidently twist matters.



    See the article related to this chart above... https://hardairmagazine.com/ham-colu...-in-crosswind/

    Get that information digested and then try to shoot & compensate for the wind...see how that does?
    It may take some time to get good wind data, I would think we'd want to see several sets of data for the same conditions to show the deflection is relatively accurate. I have that house sitting there buffering 25 yards of the range so my data will always have to depend on both flags here...me thinks?

    Anyway that's the plan today, no telling what it'll be when I get to this experiment? Depends on Ya'll's ideas too.
    Last edited by OS OK; 04-26-2021 at 07:41 PM.
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  6. #206
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Aah! You were ahead of me. I should have guessed you would be. That paddle and pointer gauge of tazman's would be the ticket I should think. And I'm thinking again (dangerous as that may be) if the paddle pointer wind gauge is fixed at 90° to the boolit path, then it should indicate the equivalent wind effect should the wind be other than 90°. Calibrated with your new instrument of course. Maybe?
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  7. #207
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I'd like to keep it simple, I imagine that wind can be a very complicated problem at distance and varying winds.

    Here on my range, if I can learn to read well enough to turn groups that I shoot at 3/4" and get them down to 1/2" I'll be tickled.

    You have to remember, I'll wait on a gust for about a minute but if the wind is around 5mph or less, I've been ignoring it all together.
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  8. #208
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    The wind drift is more than you might think. I used the Hornady ballistic calculator and figured for a 5 mph side wind. It said the drift would be .5 inch at 50 yards.
    That's more than I thought it would be for sure. Not something you can just ignore.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    The wind drift is more than you might think. I used the Hornady ballistic calculator and figured for a 5 mph side wind. It said the drift would be .5 inch at 50 yards.
    That's more than I thought it would be for sure. Not something you can just ignore.
    Yeah, but what will it be if the wind only affects the first 25 yards? I doubt any calculator will allow for that, they will only be correct if the wind is the same from the firing position to the target. Useful for showing what the affect "might" be but not an absolute solution.
    Spell check doesn't work in Chrome, so if something is spelled wrong, it's just a typo that I missed.

  10. #210
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    The wind drift is more than you might think. I used the Hornady ballistic calculator and figured for a 5 mph side wind. It said the drift would be .5 inch at 50 yards.
    That's more than I thought it would be for sure. Not something you can just ignore.
    I'm only being affected by the wind 1/2 the distance to the target, when the wind is N to S or vise versa.
    I noticed sometime back that I thought a 5 mph wind was pushing my POI about the diameter of a bullet or roughly 1/4". Can't be sure of that though...at this point.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  11. #211
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ulav8r View Post
    Yeah, but what will it be if the wind only affects the first 25 yards? I doubt any calculator will allow for that, they will only be correct if the wind is the same from the firing position to the target. Useful for showing what the affect "might" be but not an absolute solution.
    I would expect about half that since he is dealing with wind only half the distance.
    My problem is for the full distance on an exposed shooting range, not just half. Getting a tight group with a gusting wind of 5-15 mph id going to be tough unless I can learn to read the wind changes.
    When that constant wind stops or changes direction, I need to know what it will do to the bullet. I have a time limit and can't wait long for the wind to do what I want.

    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    I'm only being affected by the wind 1/2 the distance to the target, when the wind is N to S or vise versa.
    I noticed sometime back that I thought a 5 mph wind was pushing my POI about the diameter of a bullet or roughly 1/4". Can't be sure of that though...at this point.
    I think your observation would be correct, given your circumstances.

  12. #212
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    tazman . . . How do you intend to train for these contests, concerning the wind?

    What I am curious about is:
    *will you incorporate some kind of exercise 'learning to read the wind' with 'actual logging of your dope' as you practice?

    There's a couple of ways to approach this: (prolly more also)
    1> do your normal practice and ignore the wind, except >...record wind direction & speed and plot shots on the target...then > after the shoot see what the actual results are?
    Then come up with your scheme for doping the wind?
    2> Follow someone else's method of reading/doping for the wind and apply this method to your practice, as you are practicing?
    Then study the results and modify if necessary and reapply to the next practice?

    It's starting to look like we need to first practice & shoot in 'steady conditions' first & learn how to read & dope. I think varying wind speeds or multiple wind directions on the range will end up in confusion.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  13. #213
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    Wind speed you can compensate for, wind gusts --- not so much

    I read somewhere about people doing accuracy shooting IN a long warehouse (I think in texas) -- no wind

  14. #214
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    Secrets of the Houston Warehouse

    This is a worthwhile read.
    It ain't rocket science, it's boolit science.

  15. #215
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    tazman . . . How do you intend to train for these contests, concerning the wind?

    What I am curious about is:
    *will you incorporate some kind of exercise 'learning to read the wind' with 'actual logging of your dope' as you practice?

    There's a couple of ways to approach this: (prolly more also)
    1> do your normal practice and ignore the wind, except >...record wind direction & speed and plot shots on the target...then > after the shoot see what the actual results are?
    Then come up with your scheme for doping the wind?
    2> Follow someone else's method of reading/doping for the wind and apply this method to your practice, as you are practicing?
    Then study the results and modify if necessary and reapply to the next practice?

    It's starting to look like we need to first practice & shoot in 'steady conditions' first & learn how to read & dope. I think varying wind speeds or multiple wind directions on the range will end up in confusion.
    I am going to start putting some wind flags out between myself and the target and watching what they are doing while I am shooting.
    If the wind suddenly changes, either direction or speed, I will shoot and see where the bullet goes. Hopefully, the POI movement will eventually become obvious and I can build a method in my mind about where I have to aim, under certain conditions, to get the POI I am after.
    I may take notes and I may not. I will try to keep it in my mind for a while. If it gets too complex, I will need to write it down.
    Not sure I will have time, during a competition, to use my notes much. I need to know how to do it without the notes.
    I will still need the indicators to know what the wind is doing.

  16. #216
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    I am going to start putting some wind flags out between myself and the target and watching what they are doing while I am shooting.
    If the wind suddenly changes, either direction or speed, I will shoot and see where the bullet goes. Hopefully, the POI movement will eventually become obvious and I can build a method in my mind about where I have to aim, under certain conditions, to get the POI I am after.
    I may take notes and I may not. I will try to keep it in my mind for a while. If it gets too complex, I will need to write it down.
    Not sure I will have time, during a competition, to use my notes much. I need to know how to do it without the notes.
    I will still need the indicators to know what the wind is doing.
    I like your approach... but . . . I am going to go all out as best as I can just so I can show empirical data & hopefully get all of our brains evaluating together and coming up with some answers.
    I would like to have the most simple way...this diagram gives me a basic understanding of what I can expect & should help me to determine whether my testing is actually showing a wind-deflection or a flier I may have created.



    and another . . .



    I just discovered articles on reading wind flags . . .

    Using Wind Flags - Basics - Part 1
    page 45 from this link > https://drive.google.com/file/d/19gg...BoezB5MNJ/view

    Using Wind Flags - Basics Part 2
    page 50 from this link > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aQU..._Al4ODJzs/view

    Using Wind Flags - Basics Part 3
    page 24 from this link > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ojj...kI67LzN5n/view

    Let me know think what you guys get from this reading regarding simplifying the process?
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  17. #217
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Wind flags, wind charts, doping the wind only works if your firearm is setup correctly. It all starts with the action screws and a good torque wrench. On any rifle I plan on competing with or want to wring every last bit of accuracy I can out of it. I replace the action screws with allen headed screws. This target is a centerfire target but it shows just how much the torque settings on the hold down screws can affect the target.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    On the right are 2 10-shot groups @ 100yds. The top group was shot with 40 inch #'s of torque and was 3 1/2" wide by 1 1/4" long. The bottom group was shot with 45 inch #'s of torque on the hold down screws and was 2 1/4" wide and 2" long.

    You need round groups from your torque settings. It's nothing for me to check the torques on the hold down screws between set/cards.

    Once the hold down screw Torques are established then it's time to test ammo over a chronograph on a calm day. Once the ammo I wanted to use was found thru testing I buy +/- 2 cases of that lot. Then I'd go back out on a calm day with that ammo and a chronograph and a zero the rifle. I used a scope with lockers and once the rifle was zero'd I lock the scope in.

    A chronograph is your friend. Wind flags & wind meters are your friends.
    Always shoot over a chronograph it will tell you if you had a bad round along with telling you if your firearm is getting consistent ignition. When practicing always aim at the center of the target. Record every shot on a plot paper marking where it hit on the target along with the speed (fps), wind direction & wind speed. Do this in different wind conditions and try to record at least 1000 shots.

    Doing this gives you a baseline of what the wind will do with your rifle/ammo combo. You can make your own chart for doping the wind. I used to make mine like the clock 1 pictured in os ok's post. I would draw circles inside the clock like pictured above. The circles would be actual measurements of what the wind speed would do to that rifle/ammo combo I was using IE wind drift for 5mph, 10mph, 15mph.

    Don't mean to be long winded but I can't stress it enough. It all starts with the hold down screw torques. Do you really think those hold down screws will have the same torque setting when you set your torques last week in a 70* house 2 weeks ago. Then went to the range in 80* weather and let the rifle sit in the sun for hour??

    When your shooting gold balls @ 50yds it doesn't matter. When you're trying to do head shots on flies @ 50yds little things show up rather fast.

    Myself, if I wanted to get back into this game I'd take my rifle for a 3 hour ride to lapua Down in columbus. They have a test center there (indoor tunnel). You give them your rifle and $100 and tell them what ammo your looking at buying. Go to lunch and come back or stay and watch. They will have test targets with the different lots of ammo they tested along with the es's & sd's of your rifle and their own testing of that ammo. Then it's a simple matter of buying 2 or 3 cases of that ammo.

    Then it would be go to the range & get the torque setting, zero the rifle and get the wind dope card for that ammo. Then go out play with the big boys.

    I do find it odd that there's been talk about holding the rifle the same every shot, pressures on the stock affecting groups, etc. But very little is said about torque wrenches. I used to use a snap-on 1/4" torque wrench and switched over to a wheeler fat wrench a decade ago.

    A chronograph is a huge part of making sure your rifle is mechanically sound. More pointedly the bolt/fp hits. If I go to lapua and they test ammo and their test rifle does a 7fps sd and 14fps es with a specific lot of ammo and my rifle does 22fps sd and a 31fps es with the same ammo. That's called a clue, that rifle will never group well and those groups will never be to the same poa. I've bought a case of ammo in the past simply because it had extremely low sd's & es's. Could care less what it did on paper and burned most of it up without ever putting up a target. I used it to check for consistent ignition of a firearm over a chronograph. Bolts do get dirty, oils can and will affect fp hits. After cleaning and re assembling a bolt I would test it with that ammo to make sure everything was correct.

    Anyway you'll be doing nothing more than spitting into the wind if you don't get everything else nailed down. Kind of hard saying I'm getting low right hits with a nw 10mph wind when you're getting the same off center hits on a calm day.

  18. #218
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    I like your approach... but . . . I am going to go all out as best as I can just so I can show empirical data & hopefully get all of our brains evaluating together and coming up with some answers.
    I would like to have the most simple way...this diagram gives me a basic understanding of what I can expect & should help me to determine whether my testing is actually showing a wind-deflection or a flier I may have created.



    and another . . .



    I just discovered articles on reading wind flags . . .

    Using Wind Flags - Basics - Part 1
    page 45 from this link > https://drive.google.com/file/d/19gg...BoezB5MNJ/view

    Using Wind Flags - Basics Part 2
    page 50 from this link > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aQU..._Al4ODJzs/view

    Using Wind Flags - Basics Part 3
    page 24 from this link > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ojj...kI67LzN5n/view

    Let me know think what you guys get from this reading regarding simplifying the process?
    There are a number of things about that wind drift chart that came as a surprise to me. Not intuitive at all. Perhaps I will need to write stuff down until I get more experience with it.

    Forrest r-----Thanks for posting that. Very informative. I really had not thought to do the chronograph work with the 22lr other than to check for trans sonic episodes.
    I have been testing the torque settings and came up with what seems to work for my rifle across the majority of ammunition I have available.

    Given the rules of the particular discipline I hope to compete in(ARA Factory class), I can't modify my rifle except for a couple of very specific areas. Tuning the action is a no no. Bedding the action is a no no. Trigger adjustment and torque settings are okay.
    Everything else must be done with ammo selection and technique.
    Still, very good information to have. If I have an issue with the rifle, I may be able to diagnose it.

  19. #219
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    My Eley Match ammo arrived just now. Now I can get to some SERIOUS practice.

  20. #220
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    My Eley Match ammo arrived just now. Now I can get to some SERIOUS practice.
    Mine will arrive Thursday.
    Got one box of ‘tenex’ left for a wind experiment with the MKII.
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