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Thread: New to using a 'F-CLASS BR' at 50 yards...

  1. #181
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Great news, OS!

    Getting back to a previous question on lubing or re-lubing boolits, those blazers might be a good candidate for experimenting. A thought that I have had is lubing the cases as well. It might do nothing, it might be detrimental or it might show an improvement. My theory is that lubing the cases might keep case to chamber wall friction constant under firing. Oily boolit lube we find on match ammo probably does just that but whether it has any influence would be the question.

    Anyway, I found some Imperial Sizing Wax the other day to experiment with.

    It would be interesting to see how that blazer ammo shoots at 25 yds (or some distance before it goes transonic).

    I might just move to the 100m range at my next range session to get a comparison.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  2. #182
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    My ammo has just arrived. It's a funny thing, the seller was offering 250 rnds or multiples at a price per 250 or 1000 rnds at a better price and only one box left, which I bought. Turns out it's two 500 rnd bricks! So I got a thousand - all's good!
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  3. #183
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    My ammo has just arrived. It's a funny thing, the seller was offering 250 rnds or multiples at a price per 250 or 1000 rnds at a better price and only one box left, which I bought. Turns out it's two 500 rnd bricks! So I got a thousand - all's good!
    "Thumbs up in that 303Guy"...taz scored some fodder too.
    Who would have thought that getting .22lr would turn into this?

    Makes me determined more than ever to make every shot count...
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  4. #184
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Makes me determined more than ever to make every shot count...
    I like that one. Make every shot count!
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  5. #185
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    "Thumbs up in that 303Guy"...taz scored some fodder too.
    Who would have thought that getting .22lr would turn into this?

    Makes me determined more than ever to make every shot count...

    Just looked at the site and they are all sold out again.
    I hope I can make these last until they get more in and I get more money.

  6. #186
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    Just looked at the site and they are all sold out again.
    I hope I can make these last until they get more in and I get more money.
    I want to score this 'Contact' ... this stuff goes really fast!



    If the quality is still there since this testing was done with the machine rest, this should be awesome for practice!

    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  7. #187
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    I want to score this 'Contact' ... this stuff goes really fast!



    If the quality is still there since this testing was done with the machine rest, this should be awesome for practice!

    I think that ammo would be fine for practice, I don't know about awesome. The actual group sizes are larger than advertised, they must be measured and reported in a different than typical manner

    I checked one and it is not in the low 30s more like the low to mid 40s

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  8. #188
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    I think that ammo would be fine for practice, I don't know about awesome. The actual group sizes are larger than advertised, they must be measured and reported in a different than typical manner

    I checked one and it is not in the low 30s more like the low to mid 40s

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Tim
    Good catch Tim . . . A feller can get a bad rep. for under-reporting groups like that, leaving out the distance shot or just showing small portions of a bull and not showing all the fliers everywhere...exactly the the thing I want to avoid.
    I'd rather err against myself than to make folks think I'm trying to be something I ain't!

    Still though...for the price of the contact, I think I could definitely live with that performance. No wonder it's always gone in a flash!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  9. #189
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Down to one box of Match & a storm is moving in . . . So...I had me an idea?



    While I have the time before the storm...I thought I might clean that CZ's barrel with a wet mop & dry it and clean that chamber and get ahead of the curve a little. Next week that order of Eley Match arrives at my FFL, so...why not get the barrel seasoned up and ready to fly when the ammo arrives?
    I thought too, that it'd be a good time to watch the first 50 shots as the barrel 'seasons in' from the wet mopped barrel and just see what I might see?

    I used the Poppa's Rest so I could eliminate as much as I can, all the err I might put into this observation...that rest is a tall one, I had to add sand bags to my stool & my arm rest...



    Anyway...here's what I got...



    After packing everything in before the rain caught me on the bench, I sat in the shop & measured up the groups.
    As usual...I'll crack a cold beer and just study what happened, study how the groups started out tight on the warmer spot (that's unusual), then started meandering around the POA.
    The POI is adjusted to hit next to the vertical on the left and above the horizontal...just almost touching those lines but intentionally 'not obliterating' the cross in the 1" circle. When that blows out it gets a little more difficult to align my cross-hairs in the scope with the lines on the target.

    I have been thinking a lot about how the barrel oscillates when the shot is fired.
    Does it wiggle around in a circle and settle back to it's static position before the shot was fired...or...does it wiggle around in a figure 8? That's been something I've wondered about when I was doing the 'tuner testing' with the 2 shot groups. This I am not sure of & haven't read or seen anything definitive about barrel oscillations. For as many opinions I have read or watched on a video, there seems to be a different account of what happens. I have seen the ultra slo-motion of an AR barrel filmed from the side and could see it whip up and down but it does not show any side to side compound reaction. That leaves me wondering about it.

    Anyway, I thought...if you drew a circle around the main body of the group, encompassing where the majority of the rounds hit & taking into consideration where several rounds share the same hole...you might be able to see where the barrel was pointing in a general sense for that group.
    I think the groups meander around as the barrel heats from the sunlight directly on the steel & from the heat generated from within the barrel. I think this ongoing heating changes the way the barrel reacts to the groups as this heat builds up to where it tends to maintain some kind of equilibrium?
    Yah...I know, that's a mouth full to consider but bear me out...

    I drew circles around where I think the aggregate/average centers of each group is in each spot. I thought that smaller circle might show me where that bull barrel might be point for those 5 shots. Then looking at the progression of the 10, 5-shot spots I shot, it might help to explain this meandering of the groups?
    Here's what I got...



    Notice how the last 5 shot groups on the right side tend to show the barrel pointing more or less in conjunction with where the POI has been previously adjusted. I am thinking that the barrel had started to maintain some semblance of 'heat equilibrium' for the conditions I had today. It was 50ºƒ this morning and because of the cloud cover I had no effect of heating from the direct sunlight, just the interior heating from the rounds fired.

    I still can't be sure of the barrels reactions to the harmonics, whether it moves around in a circle, a vertical oval or a figure 8 but I am certain it is moving and that the amount of heat in the barrel determines where the barrel is pointing when that projectile leaves the muzzle.

    Now I am not saying..."this is what is happening" by any means...just posturing a few thoughts.
    I am definitely interested in what you fellas think, if you actually think about barrel harmonics and have some theories of your own...I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just spitballing from what test we have seen thus far in this thread and the thread about the 'peep & globe' on the Sav. MKII.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    Down to one box of Match & a storm is moving in . . . So...I had me an idea?



    While I have the time before the storm...I thought I might clean that CZ's barrel with a wet mop & dry it and clean that chamber and get ahead of the curve a little. Next week that order of Eley Match arrives at my FFL, so...why not get the barrel seasoned up and ready to fly when the ammo arrives?
    I thought too, that it'd be a good time to watch the first 50 shots as the barrel 'seasons in' from the wet mopped barrel and just see what I might see?

    I used the Poppa's Rest so I could eliminate as much as I can, all the err I might put into this observation...that rest is a tall one, I had to add sand bags to my stool & my arm rest...



    Anyway...here's what I got...



    After packing everything in before the rain caught me on the bench, I sat in the shop & measured up the groups.
    As usual...I'll crack a cold beer and just study what happened, study how the groups started out tight on the warmer spot (that's unusual), then started meandering around the POA.
    The POI is adjusted to hit next to the vertical on the left and above the horizontal...just almost touching those lines but intentionally 'not obliterating' the cross in the 1" circle. When that blows out it gets a little more difficult to align my cross-hairs in the scope with the lines on the target.

    I have been thinking a lot about how the barrel oscillates when the shot is fired.
    Does it wiggle around in a circle and settle back to it's static position before the shot was fired...or...does it wiggle around in a figure 8? That's been something I've wondered about when I was doing the 'tuner testing' with the 2 shot groups. This I am not sure of & haven't read or seen anything definitive about barrel oscillations. For as many opinions I have read or watched on a video, there seems to be a different account of what happens. I have seen the ultra slo-motion of an AR barrel filmed from the side and could see it whip up and down but it does not show any side to side compound reaction. That leaves me wondering about it.

    Anyway, I thought...if you drew a circle around the main body of the group, encompassing where the majority of the rounds hit & taking into consideration where several rounds share the same hole...you might be able to see where the barrel was pointing in a general sense for that group.
    I think the groups meander around as the barrel heats from the sunlight directly on the steel & from the heat generated from within the barrel. I think this ongoing heating changes the way the barrel reacts to the groups as this heat builds up to where it tends to maintain some kind of equilibrium?
    Yah...I know, that's a mouth full to consider but bear me out...

    I drew circles around where I think the aggregate/average centers of each group is in each spot. I thought that smaller circle might show me where that bull barrel might be point for those 5 shots. Then looking at the progression of the 10, 5-shot spots I shot, it might help to explain this meandering of the groups?
    Here's what I got...



    Notice how the last 5 shot groups on the right side tend to show the barrel pointing more or less in conjunction with where the POI has been previously adjusted. I am thinking that the barrel had started to maintain some semblance of 'heat equilibrium' for the conditions I had today. It was 50ºƒ this morning and because of the cloud cover I had no effect of heating from the direct sunlight, just the interior heating from the rounds fired.

    I still can't be sure of the barrels reactions to the harmonics, whether it moves around in a circle, a vertical oval or a figure 8 but I am certain it is moving and that the amount of heat in the barrel determines where the barrel is pointing when that projectile leaves the muzzle.

    Now I am not saying..."this is what is happening" by any means...just posturing a few thoughts.
    I am definitely interested in what you fellas think, if you actually think about barrel harmonics and have some theories of your own...I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just spitballing from what test we have seen thus far in this thread and the thread about the 'peep & globe' on the Sav. MKII.
    You don't say a word about the wind like it does not matter and is not contributing to what you see on the target. Do you use wind flags and how to you compensate or dope the wind?

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

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  11. #191
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    You've got two possible things happening - the sun warming the barrel and the wind cooling the barrel. Could those two factors be working against each other with the sun warming one side and the wind cooling the other side? Internal warming would be even but would add to the temperature difference due to wind. Or would it? The wind may have a much smaller effect in warmer weather. What I'm seeing is a shift of POI upwards. Wind cooling the underside of the barrel would lower the POI so maybe not. Unless it is more of a function of altering the harmonics.

    Could the gusty wind be affecting groups? Wind wouldn't cause the POI to rise, I would think. Or would it?

    I've shot at 200m with my hornet and the POI at 200m was too high to account for bullet drop. I was shooting up a gully with a bluff at the end with wing blowing up the gully, so the wind direction toward the bluff would have been upward. The wind was steady and the groups were not bad. Then again, the wind was quite strong.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 04-25-2021 at 07:54 PM.
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  12. #192
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    dtknowles . . . In the morning the wind is shifting from the night's flow down from the High Sierras into the Sacramento Valley (N to S), about the time I shoot (I shoot from E to W), the wind is turning around as the Valley heats up and will reverse it's course (S to N) so long as there's no major weather front affecting that. At times I even have a couple hour lul in the wind in the mornings and it's dead flat. Mostly in the summer I see that occur.
    I have a wind flag at the backstop...in this picture it's blowing North at 5 mph steady...



    and one at 25 yards on my side of the house...this is a picture of the 50 yard bench before I got any of these new rifles or set up the backstop like it is above. You can see how the house buffers half of the distance.





    My house blocks the wind...buffers the wind for the part in front of the backstop which is about 60 feet (there's a 15' space between the far end of the house before the backstop starts) I can read full value wind there as long as the wind is 90º to the range, the wind just slips by the far end of the house. So the wind factor is usually only 50% of the affects you'd note from the targets direction and speed.

    Since the wind is almost negligent most days, when it's under 5 or 6, I just ignore and don't compensate. I figure I'll learn to read the wind by whatever effects I observe on the target. As far as the gusts, most of the time they give me plenty of time to pull a shot off since I can hear my flagpole rattling and the wind in the tops of the pines as it builds. It'll blow & gust for a couple minutes and then settle back to the wind of the day.
    Often times, like today...after a gust goes through it'll give me about a 2 minute lul, dead or almost dead flat.
    Living on this ridge is a little strange...it ain't like the flats. Here I have a valley on both sides of the property.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  13. #193
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    303Guy . . . This heat in the barrel is just my speculation trying to understand the meandering groups. As the dynamics of a partially heated barrel change from the cool state of the night to the sun heated and combustion heated condition of use...I think it changes how it responds to the harmonics because of that constantly changing temperature....that affects the direction that it whips or circles or whatever the heck it's doing during the harmonic pressure waves traversing it's length, but it's moving.
    Those pressure waves go back and fourth several times before the projectile exits the muzzle. Where that barrel is pointing when it does exit is anyone's guess unless you can either film it in ultra slo-mo or plot it according to where the mean average of the groups are meandering. That's what I was postulating with the small circles above.

    As far as your distance that you are shooting and the confusing drop...when you shoot up or down at an angle, say 100 yards...depending on the angle of the line of fire, you are not really shooting where gravity affects the entire 100 yards, it only affects the distance of the 'base of a triangle' that represents the up or downhill angle you shoot (the hypotenuse).
    It may well go 100 yards from muzzle to target but gravity doesn't work on it like it was a flat out 100 yards across a level plain. If I understand what your saying, you are overshooting the target because of the gravity working on it for a much less distance than of the actual shot...



    Your sight distance should be the length of the base of the triangle.
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  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    dtknowles . . . In the morning the wind is shifting from the night's flow down from the High Sierras into the Sacramento Valley (N to S), about the time I shoot (I shoot from E to W), the wind is turning around as the Valley heats up and will reverse it's course (S to N) so long as there's no major weather front affecting that. At times I even have a couple hour lul in the wind in the mornings and it's dead flat. Mostly in the summer I see that occur.
    I have a wind flag at the backstop...in this picture it's blowing North at 5 mph steady...



    and one at 25 yards on my side of the house...this is a picture of the 50 yard bench before I got any of these new rifles or set up the backstop like it is above. You can see how the house buffers half of the distance.





    My house blocks the wind...buffers the wind for the part in front of the backstop which is about 60 feet (there's a 15' space between the far end of the house before the backstop starts) I can read full value wind there as long as the wind is 90º to the range, the wind just slips by the far end of the house. So the wind factor is usually only 50% of the affects you'd note from the targets direction and speed.

    Since the wind is almost negligent most days, when it's under 5 or 6, I just ignore and don't compensate. I figure I'll learn to read the wind by whatever effects I observe on the target. As far as the gusts, most of the time they give me plenty of time to pull a shot off since I can hear my flagpole rattling and the wind in the tops of the pines as it builds. It'll blow & gust for a couple minutes and then settle back to the wind of the day.
    Often times, like today...after a gust goes through it'll give me about a 2 minute lul, dead or almost dead flat.
    Living on this ridge is a little strange...it ain't like the flats. Here I have a valley on both sides of the property.
    You don't come right out and say it but is seems you wind dope is to shoot in the lulls. That works if you can get enough calm to get your groups. Where I shoot it irarely calm but I pick a condition and only shoot when my flags indicate my chosen condition. I can change conditions between groups if my chosen condition come less often than I like.

    Tim
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  15. #195
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    You don't come right out and say it but is seems you wind dope is to shoot in the lulls. That works if you can get enough calm to get your groups. Where I shoot it irarely calm but I pick a condition and only shoot when my flags indicate my chosen condition. I can change conditions between groups if my chosen condition come less often than I like.

    Tim
    I am a tyro when it comes to reading the wind and what it foes to bullets. I have a basic knowledge of what to expect from a side wind but not from a front wind or tailing wind. Or even a quartering wind, for that matter.
    From what you are saying, you look at how things are going and set up for the most prevalent circumstances and only take your shots when those circumstances are in effect.
    My problem is going to be the competition I am intending to pursue has a time limit and I may need to take shots when other conditions arise. I need to know how to compensate.
    I currently do not have this knowledge.

    Since I was an Olympic style archer(lobbing arrows 90 meters to a target), I know how to aim off if I know what the projectile is going to do. I just don't know what is happening here for certain.
    Do you know of a good text or video that explains what happens when the winds change or swirl? Particularly as it relates to using a 22lr at 50-100 yards.

  16. #196
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    tazman . . . Here's an article I found over on the https://www.killoughshootingsports.c...ading-the-wind website...pretty short and sweet.



    My favorite part of the article is this... [ The above calculations are dependent on what type of flag(tail) you are using and a heavier material will require more wind velocity to move it than a lighter material will require. It is best to determine how much bullet movement you have with (your) flag at a certain angle and save the math for later. ]

    This is what I am doing, my range is different from one that doesn't have a house buffering 1/2 the range, my flags read entirely different speeds of the wind because they are engineers tape, super lightweight....so what I learn here will have to be learned over again or modified somewhat should I ever shoot on a range that is wide open.

    So far wind has not been my primary objective although it's not entirely like Tim says above. I don't wait for lulls and then shoot, I will wait for a minute or so but I like to keep my pace going even and steady so when the wind on my flag says 5 mph, I simply ignore it.
    I think what I've learned from observation thus far is that a 5 mph wind at full value here is about equal to one boolit width right or left in 50 yards.

    This is a subject that I think will be beneficial to everyone.
    This summer will be an opportune time to pick the wind conditions I want and shoot when I have a steady & stronger wind to work with...then start the data collection on this exercise.
    In the meantime, I'll start shopping for an affordable wind meter to measure actual conditions here. I use windy.com to get my weather forecast each day...the actual weather center measuring this is a mile north of me and 600' higher in elevation. It's close to right for here I'm sure but we want to know exactly collecting data.

    I'll probably have to find another wind flag material that will require more wind than 5 mph to hold it straight out at 90º to the staff...the summer breeze can get pretty stiff up here.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  17. #197
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Actually, OS, what I was meaning is that the wind was from behind me blowing into the gully and up the bluff at the end, resulting in an upward wind on the bullet. I was shooting horizontally. There is actually a small waterfall off that bluff at the end of the gully. I measured the distance with a GPS. That rifle was zeroed at 160m so should have shot low at 200m, but didn't. The wind can do strange things! My mate with his 17 HMR gave up on it because of wind drift.

    One day at a 100m range, a cross wind developed down range where we could not feel it. My shots drifted horizontally from my target sheet to my next target sheet. My target sheets being A4 sheets. The wind was picking up while I was shooting my group then it reached the benches. That was also the hornet. I seem to have lost those targets.

    Makes me think of wind socks. They can be sort of read for wind speed.
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  18. #198
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    303Guy . . . It's funny how one fella can write something and another fella can read it and neither one of them know what the other fella is talking about!
    Sorry...my bad as they say....hahaaa

    tazman . . . Here's another good article...this one is a little bit deeper. https://www.accurateshooter.com/shoo...s/readingwind/
    Reading the Wind — USAMU Tips
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  19. #199
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Thanks for the links. I have some studying to do.

  20. #200
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    Thanks for the links. I have some studying to do.
    Your welcome tazman . . . There's a couple images I've found also, not 'in depth' type material but interesting facts...

    It matters with a right hand or left hand twist . . .
    good article accompanying this drawing too >[ https://hardairmagazine.com/ham-colu...-in-crosswind/ ]



    Mirage for me is difficult to work with, I recon it just takes lots of practice & learning how to see it clearly in the scope...



    I'm getting things together to do a wind study soon, ordered these this morning...these targets should make good examples of deflection shooting a single bullet at each target and noting the wind flag & wind speed on each separate target. These are the right size for my backstop opening.



    I need to find another material besides this engineers tape for a wind flag(s)...something I can use to change the 90º angle of the flag and what mph that equals.



    Maybe glue or staple several layers together to make a thicker strip/heavier strip and with that wind meter calibrate it...may not get what I want exactly at the 90º reading but at least I'll know what that does equal.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check