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Thread: New to using a 'F-CLASS BR' at 50 yards...

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    New to using a 'F-CLASS BR' at 50 yards...

    I have been running this thread... New to using a 'PEEP & GLOBE' at 50 yards... ...since last November and have been bitten by the accuracy bug in the .22lr platform. This has been a real kick in the pants 'learning curve' as I never in my 70 years have put much stock in the 'lowly .22 rifle'. In that thread I have been shooting a Savage MKII FVT bone stock except for the aftermarket stock.

    Not long ago I was at my local gun shop picking up some Eley 'tenex' fodder when I discovered this little gem for sale...



    It is a 2003 CZ452 that's been totally tricked out, it has a Sightron 36X - 42mm fixed power scope with very fine cross-hairs & dot, & it has a custom barrel and chamber with a clamp-on Harrels barrel tuner at the end and included was a full brick of Eley Match ammo.
    The rest is a POPPAS rest out of Texas... http://www.pappasrimfireproducts.com/index.html ...this entire rig was for sale as pictured.
    I stood there trying to comprehend exactly what this is that I am looking at...it is obviously a rifle I could never have bought new and then afforded to have all the custom work done, it is way over my head all the details that make this rifle what it is.

    Well....I figured that this is my opportunity to go down a new Rabbit Hole...to learn a new shooting style & dicipline...to go somewhere I've never been before.
    I am an ole'retired'Fart and shoot here at my little property in the Sierras. I don't compete in any sanctioned matches or even know anything about competition, I just enjoy precision shooting and handloading & casting...been doing that since 74.

    I have remodeled this rifle some to fit me, have added a stock extension, bought lower scope rings and have added a temporary 'red-neck' cheek riser till this proves out to be the correct height and then I'll build a permanent one to replace these yellow carpenters pencils I have taped onto the stock.
    I have put the PAPPAS rest in storage until I can build a proper bench to use it on, a solid as a rock bench to replace this temporary folding table I use now.



    I built a custom fit leather covered pad for the Cabellas rest to fit that forestock, until a new bench comes along this summer this will be the plan...the same as I am shooting the MKII FVT, the other pad fits the Savage fore stock and I can change them in short order.



    I have done a little research on this 'f-class' shooting and discovered there are many ways they shoot, prone was one. Not having any experience with this particular style, I thought I'd try all the positions eventually.
    Many members here have been most generous with their 'tips-n-tricks' on shooting the 'peep & globe' and I thought that perhaps I could repeat that thread with this particular style...Lord knows I have a lot ahead to learn. Learning keeps my mind young and engaged and shooting allows me a couple hours daily, 'weather permitting' of course, to escape the reality of this crazy upside down world we live in today!
    Pray for our Republic boys..."were in a heap of trouble right now!"

    Anyway...I thought I'd get started by learning about 'finding nodes' with that Harrels tuner. Never used one before so I watched some Y-Tube videos and read some articles and have a plan to start out. I figured I would start with the tuner set at 'zero' and work my way up through the settings to see what I can see about how this thing works.
    There are so many click settings from 0 through 5 that I thought I'd start by skipping four clicks and just take a 'cursory' look at the 2 shot groups.



    Since there are 3 click settings on each side of where we see the nodes here...I'm calling the groups where you see only 'one hole' the 'nodes' as there are two shots in that same hole. I thought I'd come back to them and shoot the settings on either side of the 'one holers' to see what would happen.
    Obviously, I've never charted anything like this before outside of shooting a ladder with one of my center-fires so I will be very appreciative to anyone who would like to chime in here and help me to get off on the right foot.

    As of this afternoon, this is all the progress I have made thus far (I am still shooting the 'peep & globe' MKII also and still have progress to make with that style so that thread will be running concurrently)....but with this class, I'm out here in uncharted water trying to learn as I figure these things out.
    I appreciate all your commentaries and examples and encourage all of you to post pictures of what your shooting and what results your getting on your groups right here in this thread.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy
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    That's all looking very promising. I was going to say, check if your new rifle had a custom barrel. The Cz 452 action is considered to be the better choice over the later 455 series actions as it has a proper bolt locking lug as opposed to the later action just using the bolt handle as a lug.

    One thing I found with my rifle/front rest. As you, I made a custom block out of laminated cork, it looked good but I found my groups opened a little, I found the fore-end needed to be resting on something non hard. I made a flat little sandbag and inlet it into the cork block - worked very well.

    When I'm setting up my tuners, I start with a pair of shots, if they are not touching I move the tuner, if they are touching I fire three more at that setting, if they look promising, make a note and move on.

    I found, with the vagaries of .22 shooting, two shots through the same hole is not enough information to make any deduction, the next two could well be .5" away.

    I have 2 x .22lr rifles I use for benchrest - a heavy BSA International Mk5 Martini action and Sako P94s Finnfire with a lilja match barrel. To get the best out of the BSA I use the lightest touch I can, with the Sako I hold it as tight as I can - I don't know why, it's just what works.

    I'll be watching your progress with interest - I also like the idea of not using a one piece rest.

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Thanks 1066... I put a double layer of leather on the pad to soften the rest, if I have problems I can re-do that easy enough.

    Today I am going to revisit the 'potential nodes' and the settings on each side of them & will proof any nodes I think are nodes with 5 shot groupings too.

    I was very pleased to see rifling marks on a round I had chambered and extracted...



    I am sure that one piece rest may come in useful perhaps for testing rifles where the operators input needs to be isolated but for practical everyday practice I don't think so. I just want to experience using it and that'll be enough for me. I mean, after all...how can I get all happy over a group I didn't really shoot?
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Since I have never used a tuner, I am just spitballing here. My thought was to go to where you have two settings showing a single hole that are side by side on your chart and go halfway between them. The fact that two are close to each other may mean there is a "wider" node in that spot.
    If you can find the center of a "wide" node, you would have a better chance of having a setting that worked under changing conditions.
    When you have a single spot node, changes in temperature or other things may make it not work the same. Something to keep track of during your testing.

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I will tazman... thanks. You have a good point...

    I got me a theory going about these harmonics in the barrel, I am wondering if you can plot the direction of barrel movement by the groups they leave from exiting the muzzle at a particular point of it's motion, the angle of a line between the center lines of the holes might indicate that to some extent if the shooter does his part, make it a little easier to choose which 'suspected nodes' are worth following more than others...gonna be working on that in a little while.

    Be back tonight with some more information about that.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    I will tazman... thanks. You have a good point...

    I got me a theory going about these harmonics in the barrel, I am wondering if you can plot the direction of barrel movement by the groups they leave from exiting the muzzle at a particular point of it's motion, the angle of a line between the center lines of the holes might indicate that to some extent if the shooter does his part, make it a little easier to choose which 'suspected nodes' are worth following more than others...gonna be working on that in a little while.

    Be back tonight with some more information about that.
    Interesting concept. That will take some time and a lot of data to work out.

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I was thinking the same as tazman. In addition it might be an idea to test a chosen node with different ammo. You may find that one node is less sensitive to changes than another in that way. I would suggest that with other ammo, more than two shots would be needed to get a group. Just a thought.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 02-26-2021 at 10:42 PM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    You will find deviation in the nodes between lot numbers of the same ammo. When you find an ammo the rifle really likes, record that lot number on the ammo. If it is Eley, you can call them and buy a bunch from that particular lot. Also, SK and Wolf. SK and Wolf tend to be significantly cheaper and often shoot the same. It comes down to the diameter of the boolit and the typical greasy wax they use on the boolit. Also, the quality control of the powder load is much higher.

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    This is no easy task... This kind of stuff can make a wreck out of a man...even on his best day.
    The more you try to take the 'human error' out of something, the harder the task becomes!
    I came into this tuner testing thing vastly underestimating the actual task of tuning a tuner...I've seen some 'Rabbit Holes' but this one takes the cake.



    - Circled 2-shot groups on the right of the Yellow Line got 5-shot tested on the left side of the YL.
    - I used the 0.25-24 setting to warm the barrel and then shot all four test settings without stopping any longer than to reset the tuner to the next setting.
    - I came back to the 0.5-20 setting to test it again after the barrel had cooled for 20 minutes or so...I rewarmed the barrel before the second test.
    - Arrows point in the directions of the next testing...they point in the direction that I proceeded, I know...it's confusing.

    The only thing, I think I convinced myself of today is that there has to be a less tedious method, a method that would economize the use of your ammo as this is only the tip of the iceberg & nowhere is it conclusive...to get anything meaningful, to get 'empirical evidence' from this, I'd have to test the 5-shot groups 5-times.
    Even then it'd still have the human error in the results.

    Between my 'OCD' & my under-estimation of the simplicity of this task . . . well . . . "I feel like I just went bear hunting with a switch!"
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Perhaps you are trying to be too perfect here. I doubt you will ever find a setting that always gives bug hole groups under all circumstances.

    Looking at your last target, the lines that end with the designation 0.5 and 1.0 give excellent groups clear across the line. I suggest narrowing your experiments down to those two areas for the time being. Probably near the center of each line.

    Ammunition always ends up costing more than the rifle in the long term. Particularly where match grade ammunition is concerned.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Ooooh, you've stepped in it now! In six months that rifle won't be good enough, and....and...and.
    Eleutheromaniac

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    REVELATION.... rev·​e·​la·​tion | \ ˌre-və-ˈlā-shən\
    Definition of revelation

    1a : an act of revealing or communicating divine truth
    b : something that is revealed by God to humans

    2a : an act of revealing to view or making known
    b : something that is revealed especially : an enlightening or astonishing disclosure shocking revelations
    c : a pleasant often enlightening surprise her talent was a revelation

    I'VE BEEN 'MULLING'
    again, over all the various comments in this thread and the other about the 'Peep & Globe' ...for example...

    dverna... I am both astounded and horrified by that many setting on the barrel tuner ... I can see thousands of rounds expended to sort out the best setting.

    tazman... Perhaps you are trying to be too perfect here. I doubt you will ever find a setting that always gives bug hole groups under all circumstances.
    Looking at your last target, the lines that end with the designation 0.5 and 1.0 give excellent groups clear across the line. I suggest narrowing your experiments down to those two areas for the time being. Probably near the center of each line.

    uscra112... Ooooh, you've stepped in it now!


    These comments you boys make never stop rolling around in my head, especially so in the 'Peep & Globe' thread where the experimentation I did just went off the page.
    Some was insignificant...some very accurate, however...since this revelation has occurred, I plan 'one last experiment' for today. Also, I need to get into the shop to make a drawing and get a picture of it so I can better explain what I am thinking and where I think I am going with this rifle.

    "I'll see you'all this evening (weather permitting of course) with some 'empirical evidence' ...me thinks!"
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    That Theory... I have been mulling over these past few days is this...

    Can we have some idea of where our barrel physically is during the time the harmonics are working their magic just as the round clears the muzzle?
    Could that pair of holes in the target give us more information that we currently are getting?
    (I am talking here as if the rifle were fired in a jig so that any operator error or wind wouldn't have any effect on these theorized drawings below.)
    If so...then:
    We might have a much better idea of how to get that barrel to the most opportune spot in that vibration for the best opportunity at getting some 'bug-hole' groups.
    We do have a little control over the speed of the rounds & barrel time by selecting a projectile's velocity that best matches the barrel time - - - when that barrel is at the correct vibration/oscillation.
    We can change barrel length to do that too &/or we can run a tuner to increase/decrease the length of the barrel.
    I would imagine there are other things you boys can think of that'll do this for us and give us a better chance of making a really good shooter from a mediocre, mid-range or expensive platform...

    Since I have never seen any video of high speed slow motion barrel motion, I can only imagine what is going on at the muzzle. Here's a couple scenarios I have been visualizing in my mind...



    On the left side top & bottom, the drawing shows a barrel vibrating/whipping straight up and down from it's reaction of the round being fired. Whether the barrel goes in the upper or lower position first as the barrel time of the projectile plays out and the round exits the muzzle, I can only guess? As an analogy I think of holding a fishing rod and suddenly whipping up on the handle and seeing the long end staying in place as the body of the pole rises suddenly and the tip then follows. Can it be that a barrel does that from recoil? The rifle is sitting on a firm rest and the recoil must not only push back against our shoulders but the rifle barrel can also rise off the rest.

    On the right side top and bottom, I imagine that barrel whipping a little off center of straight up & down...perhaps one side or the other of the barrel is hotter from direct sunlight or the cool breeze is cooling one side more than the other and this effect causes a little difference of stiffness enabling the barrel to whip in the direction of less resistance?

    I study these graphs/grids I am shooting and want to try to explain why rounds will hit side by side, over and under & or side by side at an angle...or why we get 2 rounds in the same hole? Anywhere up at the extreme end of motion I see an opportunity for the rounds to hit in a single hole as the motion reverses itself (there is twice the opportunity for a single hole as the barrel travels up, stops and then reverses motion...this dwell time gives our projectiles a little more time to compensate for the extreme spreads we see on the chronograph).
    In between the extremes of whipping action the barrel is traveling in one direction whether up or down and that would tend to make our rounds want to string in that same direction of motion. There must be a million combinations we could consider within all the shaded area of motion.

    On the bottom, left and right side, I try to extrapolate how the rounds may look on target depending on where they leave the muzzle and where the barrel is actually at during the oscillations.


    OK...enough postulation... here's the target for today...



    (the circled grids are for the warmers...the 'AD' beside that single hole was an accidental discharge so I am excluding it for consideration today)
    I am trying to limit my rounds per session to 25 each day to help extend my limited ammo before reordering more.
    Here I am just trying to get some quality trigger time & explore the settings on the Harrel tuner. The extra grids on the right are for exploring further any bugholes I might get to verify they are good examples of that particular setting.
    Harry Tobin... suggested today that I shoot the full numbered settings with the dial set at zero, shoot the number 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 settings to get an idea of what we might see from the shortest barrel length to the longest the tuner will allow. I think that'll be the agenda for tomorrow.

    The weather was great but the wind was atrocious. I did my best to avoid the strong gusts but I had to maintain a rhythm/timing so the barrel wouldn't cool off.
    Yesterday I noticed how much that shooting bench (picnic folding table) was flexing when I brought my right arm back from adjusting the rest and then placing the weight of that arm under the butt stock. It was about 1/2" or more as I watched the cross hairs rise on the grid 50 yards away.
    Today I carpeted a 1x16 plank to stiffen the table and that took about 80% of that flexing out...it was much better.

    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Those last three are seriously respectable groups, particularly given the wind. Looks like you found a node for sure.

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Predicting how a barrel vibrates and timing the bullet exit is more hit and miss than anything. All one can really do is to stiffen the barrel, thereby shortening the length of the vibration and maybe increase the frequency of it. Not certain about that last.
    The hope is, with the stiffer barrel, any movement will be minimized and the groups should be tighter because of that.

    I had a 243 that shot the heavier for caliber bullets well and in the same general 2 inches at 100 yards. Usually around 1 inch groups but a different bullet would put the group center a half inch or so away from the original group.
    I got hold of some light bullets and ran them really fast. They gave me a beautiful 3/8 inch group. Unfortunately, it was 5 inches to the left of all the other groups. Completely unpredictable.

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy
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    OS OK
    Noted that throughout the above test series, looks like
    on the average, you have more horizontal than vertical.
    Wind, you noted on the one series,
    but not noted on the other series.
    Probably the table or maybe something else causing more horizontal
    than vertical more often
    beltfed/arnie

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beltfed View Post
    OS OK
    Noted that throughout the above test series, looks like
    on the average, you have more horizontal than vertical.
    Wind, you noted on the one series,
    but not noted on the other series.
    Probably the table or maybe something else causing more horizontal
    than vertical more often
    beltfed/arnie
    I think you are right. That folding table does a much better job of serving up a plate of food than it does a shooting platform.
    I fully intend to build a proper bench but haven't started on it yet since I need it to be transportable to longer yardages & my property is not level, I live on a ridge line so there's a lot to figure out and get right in the first try.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  18. #18
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Hopefully you don't mind if I ask a couple question:

    What is the bbl's length on your cz?
    Did you test your ammo without the tuner adjusting the hold down screws torque lighter/heavier to find what torques shot the best groups?
    Did you use a chronograph while testing?
    Do you have more than 2 weights for your tuner?
    Did you save your spent cases to compare the fp hits?

    Here's what the fp hit looks like on a vostock case that was fired in my 1999 cz lux (452 action). Vostock cases are known for their hardness/being extremely had to ignite. I use them to test the bolts/fp hits on my rimfire firearms.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Perhaps you can take a picture of what your fp hits look like on the eley cases?

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Forrest r... I'll do my best to answer...

    ---What is the bbl's length on your cz? > It is 22.75"

    ---Did you test your ammo without the tuner adjusting the hold down screws torque lighter/heavier to find what torques shot the best groups? > No I haven't.

    ---Did you use a chronograph while testing? > No, not yet...normally I check a 10-shot string for FPS, ES, SD & Avg. both at muzzle and at the 50 yard distance in front of the target. I have done that with the various ammo's I've used in the 'Peep & Globe' thread but I just haven't gotten to it yet for this CZ.
    I go out to the line each morning with tunnel vision on the daily mission of testing and such and keep forgetting to set the chrony up. I will get those numbers before I run out of this brick of Eley Match so that will add to the information in the above graph/targets.

    ---Do you have more than 2 weights for your tuner? > Not really, it came to me with 1 lb. of lead added to the front end of the tuner. I took it off. In fact I sorta remodeled this CZ to fit me before I even shot it...lowered the scope rings, extended the stock and added a temporary cheek riser.
    (I left a letter to the previous owner at the gun shop asking him to contact me so I could ask specific questions about the build and how he was using it but he never has gotten touch with me.)





    ---Did you save your spent cases to compare the fp hits?

    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beltfed View Post
    OS OK
    Noted that throughout the above test series, looks like
    on the average, you have more horizontal than vertical.
    Wind, you noted on the one series,
    but not noted on the other series.
    Probably the table or maybe something else causing more horizontal
    than vertical more often
    beltfed/arnie
    I was thinking about your comment this morning when I set up. I took a crank-strap and tethered the table to my little trailer I use for a carry cart. The table legs are dug into the ground to level it so it resist sliding sideways and that tether made the table feel much more firm.
    Of course nothing I can do with this rig will equal a proper bench...hang in there, a proper bench is on the drawing table in my mind, I'll be getting to that soon.

    Thanks for the comment, it has made a 'little' difference in my 'redneck bench'.



    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check