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Thread: New to using a 'F-CLASS BR' at 50 yards...

  1. #521
    Boolit Grand Master


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    I used a bit of Eley Pistol Match in my younger days but could not afford it....so only for competitions. But it worked very well. Velocity is not your friend with .22's.
    Don Verna

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  2. #522
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Eley has Ammo again...better hurry! https://eley.us8.list-manage.com/tra...4&e=6332d8a3e5

    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  3. #523
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Velocity is meaningless, who cares if it's 1133fps or 1059fps.

    What you don't want is es's in the 20's/30's/40's from eley match or tenex.

    After you know your rifle is doing es's in the teens and sd's in the single digets, then you can start worrying about the speed of sound.

  4. #524
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
    Velocity is meaningless, who cares if it's 1133fps or 1059fps.

    What you don't want is es's in the 20's/30's/40's from eley match or tenex.

    After you know your rifle is doing es's in the teens and sd's in the single digets, then you can start worrying about the speed of sound.

    You must have missed my post number 519 ... this doesn't sound like much of an explanation for the questions I ask.
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  5. #525
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Actually I did read post 519.

    I keep saying it over and over Velocity doesn't matter. The es# matters when using high grade match ammo.

    I posted this before and I'll post it again:

    It's common for me to take a new/new to me rifle out for it's 1st outing and use ammo that I specifically bought to test firearms with that had es's in the high teens and sd 9/10fps. I take a known firearm that performs along. More often then not I don't even put a target up.

    I'm looking for the same es/sd #'s out of both firearms.

    Where the bullets go doesn't matter
    What the velocities were doesn't matter

    The only thing that matters is consistency of the fp hit, consistent es #'s and sd #'s.

    If you don't have that you can be using the best ammo in the world and it wouldn't matter. Once you've established you have consistent ignition then you can work on things like bedding, torque values, the velocity of the ammo, hold, trigger pull, wind, etc.

    It all starts with hitting the nail on the head in the same place with the same energy time after time after time.

    You shouldn't be seeing es's in the 40's/50's.

    Wouldn't hurt for you to e-mail eley and tell them what's going on along with killough & see what they have to say. You say your firearms are right and tight so it has to be the ammo.

  6. #526
    Boolit Buddy Driver man's Avatar
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    I think your chrono may need attention
    The Bird of Time has but a little way
    To fly-and Lo! the bird is on the wing

  7. #527
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
    Actually I did read post 519.

    I keep saying it over and over Velocity doesn't matter. The es# matters when using high grade match ammo.

    I posted this before and I'll post it again:

    It's common for me to take a new/new to me rifle out for it's 1st outing and use ammo that I specifically bought to test firearms with that had es's in the high teens and sd 9/10fps. I take a known firearm that performs along. More often then not I don't even put a target up.

    I'm looking for the same es/sd #'s out of both firearms.

    Where the bullets go doesn't matter
    What the velocities were doesn't matter

    The only thing that matters is consistency of the fp hit, consistent es #'s and sd #'s.

    If you don't have that you can be using the best ammo in the world and it wouldn't matter. Once you've established you have consistent ignition then you can work on things like bedding, torque values, the velocity of the ammo, hold, trigger pull, wind, etc.

    It all starts with hitting the nail on the head in the same place with the same energy time after time after time.

    You shouldn't be seeing es's in the 40's/50's.

    Wouldn't hurt for you to e-mail eley and tell them what's going on along with killough & see what they have to say. You say your firearms are right and tight so it has to be the ammo.


    Here's where the matter is, funny you should say so in your last sentence..."I never claimed my firearms are 'right and tight''...I said that both rifles, the MKII & the CZ452 both show higher velocities than Eley claimed on the box. I showed you this in the data recorded on 3 separate days with the CZ and it varied each time. The only notable difference was the ambient temperature each test, even then I keep the ammo in the shade of the umbrella. ES's & SD's didn't vary by much but still varied and it was higher as I claimed it was, so as far as wanting to see numbers that agree that's pretty much convincing for me. That is unless your trying to say that each of your 'known firearm's that perform are showing identical numbers, I don't understand this.

    If I remember correctly, tazman has made the same claim and it's not by coincidence that the Ammo he shot was from the same inventory that Killough had that month.

    I suppose that it is from my own ignorance as I am not a firearms expert or Smith but without further explanation on your behalf I just cannot understand what your implying.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  8. #528
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I went to the range today and took my three CZ rifles with me. CZ 457 varminter MTR purchased new. Probably has around 500-700 rounds through it.
    CZ 455 varmint EVO purchased new. Has around 400 round count. CZ 455 varmint, walnut stock, purchased used. Unknown round count.
    Conditions were 70 degrees, pressure 29.9, wind speed 15-20 gusty and swirling in unpredictable directions. Sun was in and out the entire time I was there. Calculated speed of sound was 1128fps.

    I set up my chronograph(Prochrono) and recorded 10 shot runs of 5 different lots of ammo through each rifle. All lots except the first were purchased this year within the last two months.
    I also shot groups but since the wind was uncooperative, The groups were mostly meaningless. Every time I had a shot land out of the group, I checked the velocity. Every flier was near the median for the string so I expect all the fliers were from wind or operator error.
    With the match rifle, the groups tended to be better and the standard deviations were more consistent.
    The oldest lot of tenex(which was rated at the highest velocity)shot the lowest velocity and the best groups in two of the rifles.
    The rated velocity is in the boc next to the name of the ammo. The first listing is the old Tenex ammo.

    Here are the results.
    457 MTR ES AVE SD
    Tenex (1082) 11 1098 4.0
    Tenex (1058) 11 1125 3.95
    Tenex (1054) 12 1113 3.74
    Match (1065) 14 1128 4.63
    Match (1064) 16 1127 5.27

    455 Varmint EVO ES AVE SD
    Tenex (1082) 24 1071 8.0
    Tenex (1058) 8 1097 2.93
    Tenex (1054) 7 1092 2.44
    Match (1065) 14 1105 4.45
    Match (1064) 15 1101 5.82

    455 Varmint ES AVE SD
    Tenex (1082) 21 1081 7.12
    Tenex (1058) 11 1095 3.44
    Tenex (1054) 13 1091 3.93
    Match (1065) 18 1099 5.24
    Match (1064) 23 1101 7.03

    The old lot of Tenex shot close to the advertised velocity in all the rifles. A little higher in the MTR but not a lot.
    All the new lots shot to higher velocities than advertised in all the rifles.
    The numbers might indicate that I need to clean the bolt and check the firing pin on the 455 varmint(rifle number 3), since the extreme spreads were larger and the SD numbers were slightly higher.
    All the SD numbers were single digit. Some of them were Very good.
    The lot of Tenex that shot the poorest numbers in the 455 EVO shot the best group. Go figure.

    Anyway. These are the results of nearly 3 and a half hours of shooting and taking notes. I burned nearly $70 in ammunition getting this between the strings and sighters..
    If any patterns or things of significance appear to you, please comment on them.
    Thanks for looking.
    Last edited by tazman; 06-24-2021 at 06:00 AM.

  9. #529
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Congratulations tazman.... I can appreciate what you've done and shared here, like I said the other day..."Sometimes you feel more like a Secretary on the range than like a Shooter!"

    It's the consistently higher velocities that catch my imagination ... I'd like to be able to explain this. "IN DETAIL!"
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  10. #530
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    All of the ammunition I purchased this year shoot to much higher velocities than advertised. In the MTR, they are pushing the speed of sound.
    I bought lower advertised velocities just to make sure things were under sonic speed. Not certain I achieved that.

    Something else I noticed but did not include in the data was the first shot from a clean barrel in all three rifles. In every case, the first shot recorded a significantly higher velocity than any of the following rounds. In the first rifle, the shot went high but not in the other two.
    Last edited by tazman; 06-21-2021 at 09:12 PM.

  11. #531
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    All of the ammunition I purchased this year shoot to much higher velocities than advertised. In the MTR, they are pushing the speed of sound.
    I bought lower advertised velocities just to make sure things were under sonic speed. Not certain I achieved that.

    Something else I noticed but did not include in the data was the first shot from a clean barrel in all three rifles. In every case, the first shot recorded a significantly higher velocity than any of the following rounds. In the first rifle, the shot went high but not in the other two.
    taz...I've used the same tactics, buying the lowest velocities I could as a safety factor.

    I've recorded higher velocities also with the first CBS, (cold bore shot) but I don't remember whether it was with the (1) a swabbed clean bore or (2) a dry patched bore or (3) the dirty bore, the one folks call a 'seasoned bore'. I think the projectile meets more resistance in the CBS regardless of dry patched or dirty-seasoned. Perhaps that slight resistance & delay allows the powder to develop into a full burn making even more gasses to propel the pill at a higher velocity.

    Wouldn't it be splendid to have folks that actually know & have the ability to explain these things start educating us ole'Farts before it's too late!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  12. #532
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I just looked up Eley Contact. Semi-auto subsonic. Mean velocity 1040 - 1090 fps.
    Then Eley Force. Semi-auto high velocity. Mean velocity 1130 - 1250 fps.
    Eley Tenex - Mean velocity 1040 - 1085 fps.

    I have used the Force. Stronger muzzle report and very hard hitting sound on the target/mound.

    Anyway, what I find puzzling is the mean range. I'm assuming a lot or batch could lie anywhere between those extremes.

    An interesting feature of the Tenex is the nose shape. I've never seen one before but the nose shape of 22's is something I have wondered about and here I see Eley are doing it! My thoughts were regarding transonic buffeting. I know some nose and/or boolit shapes reduce the transonic effect.

    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  13. #533
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    303Guy... This morning I scored 3 bricks of the 42 grain, 1046 fps Contact...we'll see soon how Eley's cheap ammo shoots.

    tazman... Take a look at Bill Calfee's comments on the ignition. This will at least give us something to look at and try as he suggests.





    I know when the CZ's chamber starts getting all 'paraffin coated and sticky' the rounds take a little more effort in pushing them into the chamber, (I place them into the chamber and push them at least 3/4's of the way in, that blunt nose will not feed off the sled with the bolt) that chamber gets 'tacky' especially in the 90º+ days.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  14. #534
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Thanks for that OS. Good find.

    I have a rifle (several of them actually, Slazenger Mod 13's) that don't have extractors. Well they do but they tuck away and do not do anything to the case and they are not part of the bolt. Single shots - you know how they work.

    One thing I can say about my Remington 500's is that there is nothing wrong with their firing pins. They dent the rim halfway to London! And that across the outer rim too. Still, from what Forrest r has said and the pages you reproduced, I'm going to need to chronograph a number of rounds to see what I get. I'm not sure there is anything I can do about it though. Although, the 500's have this two piece bolt that can be made to use a shim to set the headspace and the recess can be reduced to fully press on the rim. Probably not worth getting too involved though. These are not match rifles.

    P.S. I just googled El Dorado County. You're in a nice location. National forest, lakes, rural. How far are you from the lakes? I'm very close to town but semi-rural. Better than being in town! Plus not too far from anything. Too close to be able to shoot in my back yard but close to our range. I'm just a country boy.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 06-22-2021 at 03:33 AM.
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  15. #535
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    [/COLOR]

    Here's where the matter is, funny you should say so in your last sentence..."I never claimed my firearms are 'right and tight''...I said that both rifles, the MKII & the CZ452 both show higher velocities than Eley claimed on the box. I showed you this in the data recorded on 3 separate days with the CZ and it varied each time. The only notable difference was the ambient temperature each test, even then I keep the ammo in the shade of the umbrella. ES's & SD's didn't vary by much but still varied and it was higher as I claimed it was, so as far as wanting to see numbers that agree that's pretty much convincing for me. That is unless your trying to say that each of your 'known firearm's that perform are showing identical numbers, I don't understand this.

    If I remember correctly, tazman has made the same claim and it's not by coincidence that the Ammo he shot was from the same inventory that Killough had that month.

    I suppose that it is from my own ignorance as I am not a firearms expert or Smith but without further explanation on your behalf I just cannot understand what your implying.
    What is written on the box is meaningless, it's nothing more than a place to start when looking @ buying ammo. Some firearms like higher speeds, others lower.

    I take my 7" bbl'd s&W 41, the 10" bbl'd contender & my 10/22 with a custom 20" bbl out and test a lot of eley that has 1071fps on the box. Darn the 41 & contender were slower then what the box said & the 10/22 was faster. So what

    All 3 had es's in the low teens and single digit sd's. Because all 3 firearms have consistent ignition I can now fine tune them for competition.
    The 41 back in 2010 testing with a cheap red dot to see if I like them for bullseye competition. Paired with a couple range plinkers, 4-screw & 5-screw k22's.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    I'm no stranger to red dots. ran a 617-1 for years with a tasco pro-point for rimfire steel comps.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    The contender with a 10" match 22lr bbl on it setup for standing silhouettes.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    The 10-22, did a ton of work on that rifle. Bought a used bbl and set it back 1/4" and re-cut the chamber, re-crowned & re-cut the extractor slot. Re-worked the trigger, bolt face, fp, tuned the mags & added extra power springs.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Every one of those firearms were gone thru starting with consistent ignition.

  16. #536
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Never really had an issue with the extractor except for a 1st year (1963) anschutz 54 sporter. It uses a single extractor (the bull bbl'd target rifles switched to double extractors) that was nothing but trouble. Ended up ordering 2 new extractors and hand fitted a new 1 to the bolt. Ordered 2 because I had a heck of a time finding them to begin with back in 2005/2006? and if I screwed 1 up I had a spare.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Anyway if you break the sharp edge of the underside of the claw along with the point with a stone you will not have the issue. Just make sure the extractor slot is kept clean, moves easily and doesn't have any drag marks on the body of it. Easy enough to check, look at your brass for marks from the extractor. Marks means it's hanging up. If the extracted case has a death grip on it you have a problem.

    The extractor is checked/worked on when the bolt work is done. It's simple to do & is a part of getting consistent ignition.

    I will say that the bolt on the cz lux that I own was pure junk, looked like monkeys with broken hacksaw blades and files made it. There were tooling marks everywhere & the parts looked rural at best when compared to the highly polished anschutz bolt aasy. Ended up knocking the high/rough/sharp edges off the tooling marks (rifle had 5000+ round thru it already) from inside the bolt body and the fp's exterior (think sharks skin in water). Then I re-shaped the fp tip, added an extra power spring, cleaned up the extractor and moly treating everything. I really didn't do a lot to the sear but I did touch up/true the hook. This is what the fp hits look like with that cz lux.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    I recently bought a ruger 22/45 MK IV for blasting dirt colds with blammo ammo. Nothing but issues, sent it back to ruger and they put a new bolt assy in it and sent it back. Well it at least goes bang every time now. Still getting +/- 1" fliers @ 50ft. When people say it took xxxx rounds to break their ruger mk II/II/IV in and accuracy improved. They are actually talking about the tooling marks & burrs wore down on the fp, fp channel, hammer assy, extractor, etc. I really didn't want to tear the ruger down but it looks like some stoning is in order & hopefully that stops the fliers.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Anyway I don't know everything, never claimed to. But I do know how to check a firearm for consistent ignition along with correcting bolt issues.

    Tazman did an excellent job testing his rifles in his last post alone with understanding what his test results mean. Rimfire's are a $$$ game if you want to take it to the next level. Why do you think I was happy to find a case of sk standard + for $300 delivered to the door (back in 2007) that had es's in the teens and sd's in the single digits. Back then eley tenex was running $1500 a case.

    It's hard to take closeup pictures but this is what my 1996 cz lux bolt looks like. It's the bottom view of the holder and extractor.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    On the left is the holder, you can clearly see the broken edge along with angled lines on it. The angled lines are tooling marks. On the right is the extractor, you can see where I broke the edge at an angle cleaning up 1/2 of the bottom of the extractor. The lines on the other 1/2 of the extractor I didn't stone are actually tooling marks. I also made the angled recess on the hook itself larger, changed the angle & if you look close you will see a small line in the middle of that area. That's what's left of the tooling marks. The last thing I did was widen the spring clip relieving some of it's tension (lighter hold/parts move easier).

    If you do these things you will take the extractor out of the equation. This is a standard practice with any rimfire that gets bolt work.

  17. #537
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Forrest r... Okay...now were getting down to brass tacks. Thank you for the time you spent putting this together and responding in detail...I appreciate it.

    I have had my bolt torn down recently & cleaned/de-greased inside and out, then lubed in the FP tunnel with lightweight gun oil...thinking the lower viscosity the better. (did not think to polish anything to reduce friction but that's an idea for next time)
    I studied the extractor and found broken edges, it was plain someone had done work to it but at that point I didn't know what I was looking at (CFS, 'can't find spit') on the Y-Tube dealing with any of this high end tuning...was just going off principals of the extractor fitting in the 1911 regarding edges & radius's and such.
    My FP strike seems to appear like yours, these are hard to judge 'crush depth', but easy to see if the firing pin strikes over and beyond the outer edge of the rim where it should not strike.



    These, all but one - 2'nd row down from top and 1'st on the left (the oddball strike came from ''I think..." the MKII)...are struck in the CZ. I tried to position them in the light to judge better the strikes but with mixed results...this is hard to see...I have been assuming that they are getting a good hammering...well, up until now.



    I think I'll tear it down again and get some detailed photos so we all can observe whatever is right or wrong there. One thing that concerns me is that when a round is engraved into the rifling and the bolt closed, the extractor will jump the rim and refuse to pull that round from the lands. This is why I keep that 17 cal rod handy...for extracting FTF's when they occur.
    Here's how far it engraves and the visual depth of the engraving of the lands...again a very hard thing to judge by eye in a photo...



    Will be back and post what I find later...again Forrest r ... thank you, more people than just myself appreciate your time and experience.
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  18. #538
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I've torn down the bolt before to clean it and lube it...but I never took it down with the idea of polishing and buffing all the edges and all the mating surfaces that rub against each other.
    Also wanted to see exactly how these parts held the cartridge, I have to admit...the extractor looks more like a mistake than an intention. The odd angles and uneven filings are not readily noticeable to a old'Fart with 71 year old eyes but to a young fella with good set of peepers I imagine it's glaringly obvious.



    Inside the bolt, what I think of as the firing pin tunnel, it was really rough. I can see where that roughness can reduce the speed & inertia of the firing pin...so that had to be polished with some JB Bore Shine on a shotgun swab and electric drill. The second picture shows the tunnel polished as well as I dare, I didn't want to increase dimensions between parts so I called it good to go when that rough tooling looked smoothed over. I can't feel any roughness moving the FP in and out by hand.
    Taking close up pictures and studying angles and such it became obvious that the head of the firing pin is miss shapen, you can see this in the picture of the indents on the brass above. This brass was from the next session that I shot later that morning, I think it reflects a little deeper indent however without a way to actually measure this, it's a subjective observation. There's nothing I feel capable of doing to remedy this, and don't feel the need to since it strikes and fires them well.



    The rest of the parts got their attention also, either buffed on the cotton wheel with rouge or with the drill motor and a shotgun brush with JB Bore Shine. Nothing looks like a new part, they all have inclusions and scratches from over the years but at least they are smooth and more importantly, where they rub or slide against each other they do so very nicely. I have to assume this is an improvement over how it was.
    Before I reassembled all these parts I increased the length of the FP Spring by .148", not much by length but thinking I am compensating some for it being old and prolly tired to some extent. That is a very strong spring...reassembly of the bolt has to be done carefully as I push against that spring and insert the safety lever.



    Next...out to the firing line to compare the velocity, ES & SD's of the last box of the old lot to the new lot I got last week or so...
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  19. #539
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    All that work on the bolt got me out to the 50 yd. line around 11:00am...the wind had switched around and started coming up from the valley below with a variable but steady velocity...meaning that I got no lulls to shoot in. This is not a problem as I am concerned with the ES & SD's of the old lot VS the new lot of Eley Match. I did my best to shoot all 5 shots in the same wind velocity per target but I wasn't going to put a lot of time into that...I shot how it blew and did not compensate, I think the group sizes will reflect this.
    Wind was variable like I said...prolly 2.5 to 6.4 mph but the mean wind velocity was around 4 mph, I can judge that easily by the wind flags I see in my peripheral as I am on the scope.
    Today's conditions...



    Next to the comparisons...
    20 shots each lot, 1 warmer spot and 3 more groups behind that. Each set of numbers is a composite of all 20 shots in one continuous string.
    Starting out with the old lot I had a clean wet swabbed and dried chamber and a dirty barrel...when I switched to the new lot, I had the same conditions on the barrel, clean chamber + dirty barrel. The barrel had a total of 130 shots through it since it was last wet patched & dried.
    Ooops...I didn't note the tuner setting on the target...this test is shot on tuner setting 0.0-20, not so much a 'proven node' but suspected as such...



    Targets 1 ~ 4 are the old lot of Match & targets 5 ~ 8 are the new lot of Match.
    You see the FTF in target 4 ? I am pretty much convinced that this old lot of Match suffered a QA problem at Eley...I think that problem was inconsistent priming compound. There are no light strikes but there is ignition when the round is removed from chamber and rotated and fired the second time. This is pretty much my estimation, this priming QA problem and I think that explains the consistently lousy ES & SD's of the entire 3 bricks I had.
    Since the wind was like it was, I thought I might skip tracking each individual shot and matching it with it's velocity...I knew groups would be open more than normal and tracking velocity in each grouping would prove nothing.

    Notice the two sets of numbers for the new lot of Match on the right...I was shocked to see one round at such low velocity, I have not seen this in the last lot, nothing even close. I hated to see this as I'm sure it will draw even more questions about the bolt assembly, future practice will decide whether this is true or whether this shot is just a mystery.
    I deleted that 888 fps shot from the string and recalculated the numbers and the ES & SD were a lot more reasonable. Judging from the groups of this batch I think I am going to see much better results in the future.
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  20. #540
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    NE Ohio
    Posts
    1,876
    Ya, you're absolutely getting inconsistent ignition!!!

    You have the typical cz garbage bolt assy. I can't believe that you've been shooting that rifle for 4 months now looking at the fp hits on those cases and think that that's normal.

    Understanding what you're reading is important, re-read what you posted from your book. The key things to look for:
    Bullet engraving
    Case sitting against the bolt face
    Check for extractor issues by taking the extractor out if you think you're having issues with it

    Did you bother to take the bolt out of the rifle and put a bullet in the bolt face and hold the bolt out vertically??? Did the bullet stay in place??? Does the alignment look strait or is the bullet canted????

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check