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Thread: New to using a 'F-CLASS BR' at 50 yards...

  1. #501
    Boolit Man wilecoyote's Avatar
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    I don't know if I say trivia or things in any case well known: in my case I know that the problem is me well before than my .22: paradoxically, the more I try and the more I sit on the bench to do tests and the less I understand, because I forget that even my eye gradually gets tired (even with scope) and in any case the result changes with the change of light during the day, scoped or not. on the other side, I happened to want to throw away a sought after rifle, only to discover well after that I had tested 1st class ammo but all of them badly stored and deteriorated... (it is difficult for RWS50 not to give me good grouping, so I take them as a reference point for me, now). the shooter here is my worst variable in my case, but you don't seem like a beginner to me. just in case, forgive my platitudes.
    ...next thing you know they'll want your pistol and your tobacco...

  2. #502
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    tazman . . . "When you are most confused & challenged, it is time to study the data once more. There have been times I have recorded every shot & plotted it on a notepad & written the velocity for that shot...looking closely, trying to see something I had glanced over or not considered before.
    Time to look for something that hasn't stuck out in your face before or made itself known. Look at yourself working at the bench and analyze every detail...mull on things for a while. Sometimes the problem will reveal itself & it's something we glazed over thinking it not important or a non issue...
    At times I get into the adjustments as I am seeing the shot happen, get settled & release it and it wasn't as I envisioned. I reach back forward to set up for the next shot and discover that I hadn't locked the elevation screw down as I was shifting back and forth between elevation and windage adjustments. Little things or a combination of little things like I forget to shove the rifle forwards against the forearm stop. I am trying to pick the 'fly-dung out of the pepper' so to speak...something is obviously going South and I/we will find it so long as we remain determined.
    Something I am still stuck on is 'barrel movement VS the ES (extreme spread), I think faster & slower than the average fps will register 'out of group, I wish I could prove that with data, I wish I could prove that a barrel oscillates in an oval or semi circle instead of just straight up and down. This would certainly back my theory about fliers."

    wilecoyote . . . Welcome aboard, we are having some fun here and trying to improve...we are old'Farts also.
    Feel free to post your data & pictures of equipment, groups you shoot or anything that suits you...we appreciate your input... Welcome aboard.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  3. #503
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    MY LIFESAVERS ARE DEFECTIVE.... they EXPLODE!

    Got serious yesterday about alligning the target perpendicular to the bench...I didn't realize it was off center this far.
    I rigged a simple fix and walked back to the bench saying to myself..."I got this Baby...gonna geter'done now!"



    Then the EXPLODING LIFE SAVERS again. I was certain today would bring success...heheee but NO!

    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  4. #504
    Boolit Man wilecoyote's Avatar
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    wilecoyote . . . Welcome aboard, we are having some fun here and trying to improve...we are old'Farts also.
    Feel free to post your data & pictures of equipment, groups you shoot or anything that suits you...we appreciate your input... Welcome aboard.[/QUOTE]
    ...thanks for your welcome.
    here they says that the vintage section is the most appropriate about my gear, but nonetheless it's good enough not to forgive my results ... if nothing else, I know who it depends
    thanks again !
    Last edited by wilecoyote; 06-16-2021 at 03:17 PM. Reason: gear
    ...next thing you know they'll want your pistol and your tobacco...

  5. #505
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    OS, on barrel vibration, the other day at the range I fired a few shots with different powder charges. One 'group' was a horizontal string almost perfectly in line while the other was a normal group. It made me think of just that thing. On another occasion with a different rifle and jacketeds, I got a vertical string. Again with a different load it produced a circular pattern. Why when there is vertical stringing does the horizontal component disappear? Or the vertical component disappear with horizontal stringing?

    So getting back to 22's, I've had a circle group with a cluster on one side. Was that me or was the barrel vibrating in a circular fashion? With open sights I cannot tell because that could be diffraction and my eyes in the particular light conditions.



    Like this;


    Notice that the boolit holes in the ring show yawing?

    Does this even happen with a 22 boolit? I wonder whether one could set up a target mid-range with a second target exactly behind it down range to see whether the boolits are landing in the same position on each. How would one ensure the bore is perfectly aligned with the two target centers? That would be the challenge.

    A thought that has been running in my mind is to build a steel full length stock and fully bed the action and barrel without pressure but clamped onto the bedding just to see what would happen. I'm talking about making the system so rigid that there can be no barrel vibration at all without putting any stress on it.

    The old SMLE when used for long range target shooting would be carefully cork packed in the barrel channel (the barrel channel has cut-outs for just such packing), to control and dampen the vibration of the very whippy barrel. Apparently it was very accurate with selected ammo. It's something along these lines that I am thinking of. Trouble is, I don't think any of my rifles are actually accurate enough for this test, meaning the results may well be lost in the 'noise'.

    Anyway, just thinking out loud.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 06-16-2021 at 04:10 PM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  6. #506
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    OS, on barrel vibration, the other day at the range I fired a few shots with different powder charges. One 'group' was a horizontal string almost perfectly in line while the other was a normal group. It made me think of just that thing. On another occasion with a different rifle and jacketeds, I got a vertical string. Again with a different load it produced a circular pattern. Why when there is vertical stringing does the horizontal component disappear? Or the vertical component disappear with horizontal stringing?

    So getting back to 22's, I've had a circle group with a cluster on one side. Was that me or was the barrel vibrating in a circular fashion? With open sights I cannot tell because that could be diffraction and my eyes in the particular light conditions.



    Like this;


    Notice that the boolit holes in the ring show yawing?

    Does this even happen with a 22 boolit? I wonder whether one could set up a target mid-range with a second target exactly behind it down range to see whether the boolits are landing in the same position on each. How would one ensure the bore is perfectly aligned with the two target centers? That would be the challenge.

    A thought that has been running in my mind is to build a steel full length stock and fully bed the action and barrel without pressure but clamped onto the bedding just to see what would happen. I'm talking about making the system so rigid that there can be no barrel vibration at all without putting any stress on it.

    The old SMLE when used for long range target shooting would be carefully cork packed in the barrel channel (the barrel channel has cut-outs for just such packing), to control and dampen the vibration of the very whippy barrel. Apparently it was very accurate with selected ammo. It's something along these lines that I am thinking of. Trouble is, I don't think any of my rifles are actually accurate enough for this test, meaning the results may well be lost in the 'noise'.

    Anyway, just thinking out loud.
    303Guy... It's hard to say what's happening, there is so much for us amateurs to know & learn...all we have is our experimenting and what data we have managed to log. It'd be my guess that if we could strap the rifle firmly on a jig and shoot at least 100 yards we might see a circle this large. The circular motion I see is when I am changing the tuner setting doing a series of 2-shot tests on each consecutive tuner setting... .001" apart. The circles/oblong ovals(?) I see orbit the 10 ring when on or near a suspected node & when off node they get out into the 8 & 9 rings & progress just 1 clock hour as they go...sometimes they repeat for several settings & that's at the 50 yards I practice & tune at.

    Where you show they may be yawing, I'm not so inclined...if you don't have your target affixed tight to a good backer, a smooth cardboard...it's hard to say whether the paper was cocked in the wind and off the backer as the bullet passed into it or it is actually yawing...I'd think there would be many holes to show this instead of one or two?
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  7. #507
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    A couple weeks ago, I got that bore scope and discovered what a hack job I had for a muzzle crown on the CZ452...



    I talked with my Gunsmith and he said I'm a month or more out for getting it re-crowned, he's swamped and short one Gunsmith at the moment.
    I decided to take a shot at it with a Dremmel and a medium tapered round nose stone...it ain't the right 11º angle for a target crown but I figured it'd be better than nothing until the Smith can get to it. So I gave it a shot...I put JB Bore Shine on the stone.



    I figured it'd change my sight alignment but didn't realize that it'd change the CBS (cold barrel shot)...the left target is how it always shot in from a cold clean barrel before (when it had the butchered crown), the right is after my RedNeck Crown'Job....some little difference heh?
    Haven't had a chance to try this again but I'm thinking it'll do the same again? Anyone ever change crowns and documented the CBS & Groupings before/after?



    303Guy... I decided to do another series of 2-shot testing with consecutive tuner settings as I've done several times before. I'm starting on the short end of the tuner.
    Here's where I think I see the barrel pointing/vibrating in a circular fashion as I plot the hits & change the tuner settings +.001" longer each time.
    It was a tad windy for a top notch test but I was impatient after re-crowning the muzzle...most of the shots were influenced by some wind but I tried to get them both shot in the same condition (more or less) as I changed the tuner.



    These vibrations are at such a high frequency, who knows whether or not several barrel vibrations pass as the projectile is still in the barrel. It sure would be handy if there were high speed camera videos to actually see this thing!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  8. #508
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    According to my calculations and assuming a 24 inch barrel that is free floated and whips over the entire length, It would require about .006" of movement to move the bullet 1/2 inch from point of aim at 50 yards.
    If the barrel only whips over a portion of the barrel length, the amount would be even less.
    I doubt any camera could be set up to capture that small of a movement and make it measurable.
    Since your equipment normally gives even less deflection than 1/2" at fifty yards(shot to shot), the amount of movement would be very tiny indeed. Possibly in the range of .003" or thereabouts. Even less when the groups measure around 1/4 of an inch or less.
    With a shorter barrel, the necessary whip becomes even smaller.

    When you think about it, I guess we are doing really well to shoot the group sizes we actually do.

  9. #509
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    OS, my target board is perpendicular to the bench house. I use estate agents board to pin my target sheets onto and they are flat. That whole board is then pinned onto target wall. It means I can set up at home and just pin the days targets up in one quick hit.



    Two sample targets. In the right hand target, the outlier has a distinct yaw while the cluster shows no visible sign of yaw. That's the Mauser with a rough bore.



    The left hand group with an outlier is what this rifle does with the first shot when changing ammo. There is no yaw with the outlier.

    Not the best photos.

    OS, do you have a brass round head screw? That's what will deburr your new crown. Same as you did with the stone using fine grit. Mind you, it's shooting just fine so maybe you won't want to go further.

    I was supposed to do my Toz crown and compare the results. I have bedded the Toz and gotten a reasonable group (left hand above). If I can get the action out of the stock, I'll cut the crown square as I do and retest.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 06-18-2021 at 01:27 AM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  10. #510
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    OS, my target board is perpendicular to the bench house. I use estate agents board to pin my target sheets onto and they are flat. That whole board is then pinned onto target wall. It means I can set up at home and just pin the days targets up in one quick hit.



    Two sample targets. In the right hand target, the outlier has a distinct yaw while the cluster shows no visible sign of yaw. That's the Mauser with a rough bore.



    The left hand group with an outlier is what this rifle does with the first shot when changing ammo. There is no yaw with the outlier.

    Not the best photos.

    OS, do you have a brass round head screw? That's what will deburr your new crown. Same as you did with the stone using fine grit. Mind you, it's shooting just fine so maybe you won't want to go further.

    I was supposed to do my Toz crown and compare the results. I have bedded the Toz and gotten a reasonable group (left hand above). If I can get the action out of the stock, I'll cut the crown square as I do and retest.
    Yes, I have many and with different shaped heads...wish I would have been aware of using the brass screw to 'dress up' a bad crown before I got the dremel in hand, another friend on another forum got me up to speed about this. ((( https://youtu.be/x3ELBpqYCQc ))) Normally I would let my Gunsmith handle even this simple fix but since he is so swamped at the moment, I decided to step up to the plate and give a swing at it. Soon, starting this morning we'll see what the results of that have caused?

    I think that one of my problems is that I am always thinking back (or going back into my stack of target records) and comparing things...mulling on it and ending up confused.
    I just don't have the 'precision shooting time in grade' to be able to make a call about a problem and go right to it for a fix or improvement. I don't mean making a call on something obvious like a loose stock screw or scope mount, etc.....I mean the time in grade regarding these little mystery problems we just can't seem to put a finger on.

    But, as time will show and the memory keeps working I suppose I'll get better. I enjoy reading what other shooters experience and take their advise to heart regardless of their professional level in shooting competition or not...information of the 'higher order' seems to be something people learn to keep close to their chest. That part is somewhat frustrating...as far as I am concerned, the technical tips should be out there for all to consume/use to the best of their reasoning ability and the competitive angle should be decided by one's ability to perform behind a fine instrument. But that's just me...I have never competed on the bench...never intend to either.

    I got up early this morning to review some thoughts about the tuner. Remind myself of what others do in tuning, what has worked for them. There is not much out there other than general conversations. Now that I have changed the muzzle crown I think I should go back to the '0' setting and experiment again from there.
    With that thought in mind I ended up on this website ((( http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?102079-Tuners!!!! ))) and this being one of their 'stickies', I figured it'd be a great read while having my morning coffee...OMG! @tazman... this is precisely why I can't operate within organized events/clubs like these Benchrest Competitions...the rules!
    Here I thought I might find interesting insights to the tuner, instead I find a bunch of people with their panties in varying degrees of twists over their interpretations of the stinking rules and as usual...a thread cannot exist that doesn't turn into insults & name calling!

    If anyone reading this thread has any technical information or personal experience on 'tuning the tuner'...regardless of the manufacturer...please post it here.
    You might say..."tuners are a waste of time" ...or... "your so glad to have found one & use it", either opinion is welcome. I want to get all the information I can & I'll decide for me.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  11. #511
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I understand the problem with arguing over the rules.
    That's why I am shooting an informal event where the rules are very minimal.
    Shoot what you brought. 22lr ammo only. Three classes, sporter, semi-auto, and vintage. No prizes and no arguments. $4 entry covers the targets and backstop usage. They use their own non-standard target but the time limits are the same.
    VERY relaxed atmosphere.

  12. #512
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I took another look at my 'Redneck Crown-job' again this morning before I went out to the 50. I can see where I should have reversed the drill and took that little bit of metal 'smear'/tab off the left side of the lands you see here...



    Sooooo...I got me a brass screw with a rounded head, got the JB Bore Shine out and went to work...ever so gently...



    It did a fine job of trimming that metal 'smear' off the land...



    "So...how does it shoot now?"

    I THINK...much improved. It's hard to say...I had two sessions this morning back to back. Our weather is now 105º and our early morning wind patterns have changed. First thing this morning there was no 'lull' between wind directions into & out of the valley below. I shot a few rounds and tried to release in the same wind force but that's a 'crap shoot' at best...the groups on the left side of the yellow line, right target were the first session.
    Then I quit...too much wind & too much variation to get any reliable data...



    Then as I was putting things back in the shop, I noticed that the wind had almost died completely. I kept unloading the cart thinking it won't last but it got even more quiet...so I reload the cart & go back to the 50 and set up again...that's the results on the right side of the yellow line. It's unorganized and doesn't show anyone anything but them with a trained eye...



    I was mainly interested in the '0.0-4 & the 0.0-20' settings from the day before. This target also shot in the wind but I think I can see 2 nodes...



    The 0.0-20, I think...looks more promising, can't say for sure as I really need that 'dead calm' of the morning to evaluate the results. It's going to cool later in the week and maybe my 'morning lulls' will return?
    I know that I will have to get the Chrony back out and monitor each and every shot again to try to explain the fliers...sometimes I hate gathering data!

    I think, eventually I'll find several nodes that are .003" to .005" wide where only the temperature & barometric pressure will determine which tuner setting will be good for the day. I don't know yet...but one day I will!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  13. #513
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    The crown looks nice now. That pesky little burr is gone! Job well done. And the results look tantalizing.

    On my side of the planet, I await with bated breath to hear from the club whether or not there will be a shoot this next weekend. For me there is an added complication in that it is getting cooler and wetter. Will that make a difference? I don't know yet. I have this bad habit of changing more than one thing at a time - sometimes due to forgetful-itus. Not to mention lack of proper planning (or is it laziness? ) Sometimes I miss my youthful energy and drive - and dogged determination! Ah well, it goes with the territory. Just as long as we are having fun and to be sure, following your journey is a great deal of fun!
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  14. #514
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Went out this morning thinking I'd try to see if there's a relationship between fps & POI when you think your on a node, see if there's some indication there to explain fliers..thinking that the tuner setting 0.0-20 is a node.
    Back out with the Chrony again taking notes...I feel more like a Secretary than a Shooter!



    First shot, the CBS (cold barrel shot) had me thinking..."X - hot diggity, boy this is going to be a good day!" I don't see this happen very often, it was just a fluke.
    I think everyone fantasizes about having a day like that at some time or other? Watching them 'X's' fall like dominoes!



    This theory I have about 'barrel oscillations' going in an oval or circle should show where the faster and slower shots hit in relationship to the group average center. Only trouble is...I haven't any idea whether that oscillation is CW or CCW if it actually is doing that. I'd think the twist of the barrel would be the factor that started it going CW or CCW...thinking the torque of the projectile as it engages the rifling would cause a twisting of the barrel as the barrel whips from the harmonics.
    If so, the faster projectile would leave the barrel sooner and imprint ahead of the group and the slower coming out later would lag the group. No idea really about any of this, just 'mullin out loud'.
    This is what I recorded today before the wind got too strong and I packed up...



    Not a lot of shooting today but it sure was a lot of note taking...
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  15. #515
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Hi 1127fps Low 1084fps Avg 1102fps ES 43fps SD 10fps

    Are these the kind of #'s you'd expect from $1500 a case eley match ammo or cci sv ammo?

    Back in 2007 I was ordering/testing lots of ammo to use as "test" ammo. Was looking at lower grade match ammo that had low es/sd's to test the mechanical's of a firearm, namely the bolt/fp hits. Found a lot of sk standard plus that was running in the low 20's/high teens for the es and 10/11 for the sd's. Bought a case of it to test firearms with along with testing the progress of the bolt work I did to those firearms. Never do a bunch of changes @ 1 time, change 1 thing & test. Anyway I'd take a known firearm to the range with a firearm that I was working on. The known firearm had a positive/consistent fp hit so I'd setup a chronograph and run a 10-shot string with the known firearm and then a 10-shot string with the firearm in question. The 10-shot string with the known firearm was shot to verify that everything was setup correctly. I'd do several 10-shot strings with the firearm I'm testing (50/60 shots). I'd work on the bolt housing, fp, striker spring, sear, etc and then re-test.

    I've posted this before along with stating that I had to do a bunch of work on a cz lux bolt along with dressing up the leade of the chamber to cut the groups down +/- 40%. I've also posted this final test target using that "sk standard + test ammo". Note that it's only 25yds, there were 10mph+ winds & it was 31* outside (January 28, 2008 in NE Ohio).
    [IMG][/IMG]

    I've also posted this target, playing around @ 50yds for a game on another website, namely a 10mm game. Do 4 5-shot groups that averaged 10mm or less. I posted this target several times before, heck even had someone say I put the measurements in mm's to confuse everyone. Gimme a break, LOL!!!! Anyway 1 step up from sk standard + ammo, sk pistol match @ 50yds.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    This is the cz luz I used for those test targets pictured above. It has a pencil bbl, skinny schnabel forearm & a cheap($79) simmons 8-32 x 44 duplex reticle scope in it.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    I actually was tuning that rifle to use for smallbore silhouettes (standing/offhand) and after the work on it was done I put a lyman all american 20 x 36mm target dot low profile scope on it in 2010.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    I did a bunch of testing with different lots of ammo and ended up buying 1/2 a case of this sk rifle match ammo to use in that cz lux. This is what that ammo would do in that cz lux @ 50yds with that target dot scope.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Why am I posting all of this???

    Perhaps I know a little bit about the bolts on the cz actions. That cz lux has a 24.8" bbl and I have never had any match ammo go supersonic in it. It doesn't have a tuner on it, don't ride the bags very well & the trigger is a little heavy for br work but it'll put lead down range almost as good as a stock 10-22 and using walmart bulk pack ammo.

    At the end of the day you're just spittin in the wind/chasing your tail until you can get consistent fp hits/lower your es's.

    The other thing you should be looking at seeing how you have a borescope now is the drive side of the lands in that bbl. Along with making sure that that are all even width/height the whole length of the bbl. You should also run a patch down the bbl starting at the chamber end a slowly push to the muzzle feeling for tight/loose spots. Along with feeling to see if it gets tighter towards the muzzle. And if it does get tighter, how far from the muzzle does the constriction start. Along with does it start to constrict then get loose again.
    Last edited by Forrest r; 06-20-2021 at 11:46 AM.

  16. #516
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Forrest r... Hi 1127fps Low 1084fps Avg 1102fps ES 43fps SD 10fps --- Are these the kind of #'s you'd expect from $1500 a case eley match ammo or cci sv ammo?
    No...this in my opinion is a poor performance for expensive ammo but I don't have the time in grade as you have to really be a good judge of this. More on why I feel this way later in the post...

    At the end of the day you're just spittin in the wind/chasing your tail until you can get consistent fp hits/lower your es's.
    We have looked at this several times now & I have posted what the FP indents look like, no one seemed to comment about this as of yet. It hasn't been until this last 3 bricks that I have had so many (aprox. 12 ~ 14 FTF's) out of 1,500 rounds. Again, I don't have the expertise to make a call about this last batch...I suspect it is this Covid Crap that has put a strain on the factory's ability to meet demand and their maintain their normal QC Standards. Perhaps people are being substituted in the mfg. line doing jobs they don't normally do...again I have no idea. All I have is the results here in my back yard and what information several members give as they take the time to make comments about in all this experimenting.

    Other pics. & comments have been addressed to some extent before so I won't re-comment or re-question any of that.

    I am glad to have another 3 bricks ready to go when this last box of the previous 'questionable' ammo is gone!



    With great care I try to find & get on a node and then practice with that tuner setting. For a neophyte, I think I've done a good job of figuring this tuner business out, especially since there is so much information NOT published to help us new comers. Each time I make some change in the rifle...for example after having polished the leade and barrel, I search again to find hopefully a 'wide node' however searching the full adjustment of 500 x .001" clicks can be costly and time consuming.
    For today's card I am shooting the 0.0-20 setting...for conditions in the following tests I think/suspect that this is a node...



    For today's card where I had near perfect wind conditions and where my sending was well above normal...the results make me suspect this last lot of E. match...thank GOD it's gone now.



    Where I see these shots highlighted in green...I think I see individual cartridges that are loaded with primer compliment & powder & shot that are identical in every aspect. I say this considering all other factors, wind & shooter & rifle to be consistent. Given that this is a node and that the POI is the same, I can offer no other explanation.

    Where I see the targets highlighted in red...I see gross inconsistency in the ammunition...faster and or slower barrel timing before the projectile leaves the barrel..or perhaps something awry with the lead pill itself. In either case, this leads me to believe I am shooting a sub standard lot of E. match.

    For certain & you can take this to the bank...when I throw a shot, I call it every time...I do not have that ego problem where I have to be right every time, should I be the weak link in this chain of events...I would have called the shot. This is all the data there is on my CZ...all the facts and figures. I rely on going back to glean what I can as I learn this game...should I keep incorrect data or data that is purposely flawed, then the only person I 'BS' is me.

    "Happy Father's Day to all that qualify!"
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    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  17. #517
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    In post number 431 of this thread, I posted some chronograph readings one of which was Eley Tenex in my MTR.
    Eley Tenex----------average--1133 Extreme spread-12 St dev-4.0
    I think this is the kind of consistency forrest r is looking for. The only exception being the higher than expected velocity. For some reason, this rifle gets over 40fps more velocity with any ammo I have rested. That said, the numbers are VERY consistent.
    I need to do the same test with the new ammo and see how it compares.

  18. #518
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Yes that is what you're supposed to be seeing out of eley, extremely low es & sd's. When you don't that is telling you that the firearm has issues.

    I've only posted 10+ times that it is a good idea to shoot the ammo your using in more than 1 firearm. Preferably 1 that is known to have good solid fp hits. Apparently it's a hard concept to understand.

    If you are getting 40+fps es's from eley tenex or match ammo, you have a problem!!!!

    I've also posted numerous times (latest post was yesterday/post #515) of a target that was shot with match grade pistol ammo. I guess no one picked up on that you can use pistol ammo in rifles. Typically match grade pistol ammo is slower then match grade rifle ammo. Less fatigue on the shooter when shoot 50m free pistol events. The lower recoil is a good thing when using a 25m sport pistol, quicker target acquisition. Burned a lot of low velocity match grade pistol ammo over the years in the 25m sport pistol (middle pistol) and the 50m free pistol (bottom pistol).
    [IMG][/IMG]

    If you're getting too high of velocities with the tenex rifle ammo then your simply pouring your $$$ down the drain. Eley, Lapua, RWS & SK make match grade pistol ammo and are worth reading up on.

    This is a link to off the shelf rifles and the different ammo/results.
    Anschutz 50-br (single shot)
    Anschutz 1808 (repeater/clip fed)
    Walther KK 200 Match (4p/position rifle)
    http://www.accuratereloading.com/22rf100y.html
    Last edited by Forrest r; 06-21-2021 at 07:39 AM.

  19. #519
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
    Yes that is what you're supposed to be seeing out of eley, extremely low es & sd's. When you don't that is telling you that the firearm has issues.

    I've only posted 10+ times that it is a good idea to shoot the ammo your using in more than 1 firearm. Preferably 1 that is known to have good solid fp hits. Apparently it's a hard concept to understand.

    If you are getting 40+fps es's from eley tenex or match ammo, you have a problem!!!!

    I've also posted numerous times (latest post was yesterday/post #515) of a target that was shot with match grade pistol ammo. I guess no one picked up on that you can use pistol ammo in rifles. Typically match grade pistol ammo is slower then match grade rifle ammo. Less fatigue on the shooter when shoot 50m free pistol events. The lower recoil is a good thing when using a 25m sport pistol, quicker target acquisition. Burned a lot of low velocity match grade pistol ammo over the years in the 25m sport pistol (middle pistol) and the 50m free pistol (bottom pistol).

    If you're getting too high of velocities with the tenex rifle ammo then your simply pouring your $$$ down the drain. Eley, Lapua, RWS & SK make match grade pistol ammo and are worth reading up on.

    This is a link to off the shelf rifles and the different ammo/results.
    Anschutz 50-br (single shot)
    Anschutz 1808 (repeater/clip fed)
    Walther KK 200 Match (4p/position rifle)
    That's an interesting concept, one I've never heard explained before...

    Both my rifles, the CZ452 & Sav. MKII make more velocity with these last 3 bricks of what I now am calling (E. match) 'substandard QA'.
    Here's the numbers with the CZ452 (left side of the picture was muzzle velocity) the other side disregard, it's measured at the 50 yard target.
    This CZ is making +26 fps...



    The above was chrono'd on 5-1-21 and the numbers below, with the CZ are chrono'd on 6-19-21, pretty close in time but pretty far apart in Average fps & ES & SD's.
    This latest Average pictured below is +47 fps with the CZ.



    Here's another chrono I just found, pictured below & done on 5-22-21, this one in the CZ is 50 fps faster.



    In the next picture...this is the MKII...it makes +31 fps...



    I need to understand this as I've not been schooled on this before...
    What is the 'issue' that both of these rifles have in common? What makes both shoot this ammo rated at 1055 fps faster?
    Each time the chrono comes out I see different numbers with this Eley match and that leads me to conclude that this ammo is sub standard & I explained earlier 'why' I think this...you say . . . Apparently it's a hard concept to understand. . . . I say, "try me, I'm a lot smarter than I look!"

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  20. #520
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I think I will take my chronograph and a couple or three rifles to the range and see what numbers I get with both the new and the older ammo. See how it compares to the numbers on the box.
    I have three CZ rifles that have 20 inch barrels. It will be interesting to see how things compare.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check