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Thread: New to using a 'F-CLASS BR' at 50 yards...

  1. #421
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    Did you look at Brownells?

    https://shop.brownells.com/gun-clean...b0435177aae0a7

    It appears to be in stock there?
    I saw that but it isn't exactly the same stuff Forrest was talking about. He recommended bore cleaning compound, not the polishing compound,
    The cleaning compound is out of stock.
    I don't know if it will do the same job. Maybe Forrest will chime in on this.

  2. #422
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Killough has Eley Match ammo in stock! I just scored four bricks.
    Managed to get some rated within 4 fps of the last brick I picked up.

  3. #423
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    Killough has Eley Match ammo in stock! I just scored four bricks.
    Managed to get some rated within 4 fps of the last brick I picked up.
    My last 3 bricks were 1055 fps (still have 1.5 bricks of that)...thanks to you taz, I have 3 more bricks coming at 1056 fps.
    We sure have to look out for each other when it comes to getting our ammo...I sure appreciate it taz!

    charlie
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  4. #424
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Just returning the favor. You let me know it was in stock the last time.

  5. #425
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Interesting, they made a product to actually do what I'm talking about.

    FWIW:
    I use a tight patch and coat it with the paste & push it into the leade of the bbl and +/- 1/4 past the leade then pull it back on a dirty bbl. After 5/6 strokes I will feel less resistance so I change the patch out with a clean patch and give that area a 5 or 6 more hits and then dry patch it.

    I do this for several range sessions & will actually be able to feel the difference in the pressure needed to start the 1st patch. This tells me that the leade has been polished. I will every couple months hit that area again with the jb bore paste if the rifle has seen heavy use. 22lr ammo uses ground glass in their priming compound. The 6 o-clock area of the leade gets microscopic pits/scratches from this.

    I have yet to see a production firearm that hasn't benefitted from doing this. It is caveman simple to do & cost next to nothing.

    It's interesting that jb bore paste isn't in your cleaning kit.

    Something to think about:
    Eley does over 150 measurements on their components before they put everything together along with after everything is assembled. You can weigh/measure/sort till the cows come home and everything you do with their high end ammo is meaningless.

  6. #426
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    I don't shoot rimfire br anymore. I really enjoyed it when I did. I found my true passion for rimfire rifles were with the sporters so I quit shooting br back in 2010.

    At the local club I'm a member of has a small group that likes to shoot rimfire br. They started competing & recording targets nationally 5 years ago. They've worked hard to make a decent range and tables. Now the ohio state shoots are held at our club. These guys have come a long way, there are 4 of them that are really deep into it & they are just starting to become competitive at the state level. These are the targets from the last monthly shoot. Of course there's only 4 people shooting. Better weather will bring out 10/15 people but these 4 are the only ones that have gone down the rabbit hole.

    All 4 targets from the 4 shooters
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Shooter @1
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Shooter #2
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Shooter #3
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Shooter #4
    [IMG][/IMG]

    The day of the shoot was a good wind day, constant 6mph to 10mph with no gusts and mostly from a constant direction/very little switchbacks.

    They're running anschutz rifles and turbo customs.

    Anyway this is what shooters are doing in a little club in ne ohio. The anschutz are competing at the club level and the turbo's have takes a couple shoots at the different state matches. At the end of the day you're only as good as your worst shot.

  7. #427
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
    Interesting, they made a product to actually do what I'm talking about.

    FWIW:
    I use a tight patch and coat it with the paste & push it into the leade of the bbl and +/- 1/4 past the leade then pull it back on a dirty bbl. After 5/6 strokes I will feel less resistance so I change the patch out with a clean patch and give that area a 5 or 6 more hits and then dry patch it.

    I do this for several range sessions & will actually be able to feel the difference in the pressure needed to start the 1st patch. This tells me that the leade has been polished. I will every couple months hit that area again with the jb bore paste if the rifle has seen heavy use. 22lr ammo uses ground glass in their priming compound. The 6 o-clock area of the leade gets microscopic pits/scratches from this.

    I have yet to see a production firearm that hasn't benefitted from doing this. It is caveman simple to do & cost next to nothing.

    It's interesting that jb bore paste isn't in your cleaning kit.

    Something to think about:
    Eley does over 150 measurements on their components before they put everything together along with after everything is assembled. You can weigh/measure/sort till the cows come home and everything you do with their high end ammo is meaningless.
    Good information. In all honesty, I never heard of J-B Bore paste until I got to this site and then still didn't see a need for it until now.

    I weighed and miked a bunch of Eley and Lapua ammo a few months ago and got bored watching the scale and the micrometer hit the exact same spot every time. After 20 rounds of each, I gave up trying to measure any differences. A person would need better tools than a powder scale and a standard micrometer to find any difference in that ammo.
    Other brands are a different story.

  8. #428
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    When you get into higher end rimfire firearms you can feel the difference in the finish of the bbl's with a tight clean patch.

    The one firearm that really sticks out over the decades is an IZH-35m sport pistol. Had it out yesterday along with a ruger 22/45 & the 9mm ro. Bought that 25m sport pistol nib back in 2002?. I've never used a brush on the bbl of that pistol. I use hoppe's #9 on a q-tip to clean the chamber and the muzzle and nothing more then a dry patch after that. The patch goes thru like glass on water.

    My anschuz 54's are the same way, so was 1 of the 3 different 52d's I owned. I've only owned a couple different custom 22lr bbl's and they were all low end bbl's.

    It's all the testing, tuning, tweaking that keeps the rimfires interesting.

  9. #429
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
    I don't shoot rimfire br anymore. I really enjoyed it when I did. I found my true passion for rimfire rifles were with the sporters so I quit shooting br back in 2010.

    At the local club I'm a member of has a small group that likes to shoot rimfire br. They started competing & recording targets nationally 5 years ago. They've worked hard to make a decent range and tables. Now the ohio state shoots are held at our club. These guys have come a long way, there are 4 of them that are really deep into it & they are just starting to become competitive at the state level. These are the targets from the last monthly shoot. Of course there's only 4 people shooting. Better weather will bring out 10/15 people but these 4 are the only ones that have gone down the rabbit hole.



    The day of the shoot was a good wind day, constant 6mph to 10mph with no gusts and mostly from a constant direction/very little switchbacks.

    They're running anschutz rifles and turbo customs.

    Anyway this is what shooters are doing in a little club in ne ohio. The anschutz are competing at the club level and the turbo's have takes a couple shoots at the different state matches. At the end of the day you're only as good as your worst shot.
    Thank you Forrest... these are perfect, exactly what I wanted to see.

    I was curious about seeing those POI's dancing around in the 10 ring like this. This part may be inevitable.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  10. #430
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    What you're looking at is winds out of the nw that would change to w or n every now and then.

    The 10 o-clock shots is where they got caught flat footed (wind slowed) Typically you'd be aiming there for a 10mph nw wind.
    The 2 o-clock hits were w winds and the low shots were n winds.

    If you look you can see 90%+ of the shots are either on center or high
    Last edited by Forrest r; 06-01-2021 at 04:25 PM.

  11. #431
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    My wife ordered me out of the house today, so I took a couple of rifles and went to the range.
    I also took my chronograph with me and recorded some velocities for the ammunition I had with me in both rifles.
    I only saved the averages for the CZ varminter. For the CZ MTR, I save more data.
    Ammunition used was Eley Tenex rated at 1058fps, Norma Match rated at 1100fps, and Aguila Rifle Match rated at 1080fps.
    Both rifles have identical length barrels. The MTR has a match chamber.
    Now for the fun stuff.
    These are for 10 shot strings in each instance.
    Averages for the Varminter
    Aguila Rifle Match-----1064fps
    Norma Match----------1067fps
    Eley Tenex-------------1090fps

    Now for the MTR
    Aguila Rifle Match-- average--1109 Extreme spread-26 St dev-8.5

    Norma Match-------average--1111 Extreme spread-27 St dev-9.4

    Eley Tenex----------average--1133 Extreme spread-12 St dev-4.0

    Today's conditions
    Temp 79F
    Pressure 29.9
    Calculated speed of sound 1137dps
    Light winds around 2-5mph
    The range has large stands of trees on both sides so a wind this light has little effect on things. Occasionally, I would be able to feel a light breeze from the SW. The range faces the east.

    It seems the rifles like warmer temperatures. Accuracy was somewhat better today than yesterday when it was about 68-70 degrees.

    I did come up with a couple of questions.
    First question.
    What conditions would cause the identical ammunition to run 45fps faster in one rifle over the other?
    Same barrel length. Same lot numbers(same boxes actually)on the ammo. Same conditions. I even let the rifles and ammo stand exposed for 20 minutes so they would all be the same temperature.
    Both rifles were cleaned before shooting each string. Kind of a pain but I did it for accuracy purposes. Two wet patches and dry patches until no moisture or dirt showed on the patch.
    One note on the cleaning. The MTR barrel is much smoother and easier to get clean than the Varminter. Apparently a better lapped barrel.

    Second question.
    Is it common for just a few degrees to have a significant effect on accuracy?

    I never really noticed this before. About ten degrees difference from yesterday and noticeably better accuracy.

    I also noticed that a few of the shots in the Tenex were over or right at the speed of sound by about 2-3 fps. I am not certain how much of a problem this was since I didn't record all the shots from the scoring target and I didn't have the numbers to show what the speed of sound was today until I got home. Now, after all the calculations, I wish I had recorded the velocities of each shot.

    Just for grins, at the end of the session, I lobbed a few rounds out to 100 yards to see what kind of groups I would get. Two five shot groups measured 1.5" and 1.3" center to center. Spreads were mostly vertical. I was unable to use the crosshairs to aim. The reticle has mil dots and I was able to aim using one of those and some Kentucky windage. Not the most precise aiming going on there. That impressed me as I didn't expect to shoot anything under two inches.

    I am wondering if the smoother interior of the MTR barrel is the reason for the increase in velocity on all the ammo in that rifle.

  12. #432
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    tazman... I can't say I'm surprised, that is if I have read this correctly. The MTR has a match chamber...there is less room between the cases and the wall of the chamber for the brass to expand and use some of the energy that would normally go into propulsion. Less energy used to expand the case out and seal the chamber.
    I think we can see this in center fire also. If you full length resize compared to just bumping the case enough for the bolt to close snug. The full length size job needs more energy to expand it out and seal, the just bumped enough case is pretty much already there and all that remaining energy can be sent down the barrel behind that lil'Pill.
    Also...having the round jammed into the lands keeps that pill in place just a fraction longer and really stokes the fire in the case before it moves and starts creating more space behind it.

    Until you get more points of view posted so I can have more perspective, that's my best guess...that's what I've been thinking about my CZ doing the same thing.

    PS...sounds like you had a mighty fine range day...congrats taz.
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  13. #433
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Friday...4 June 21...0600 Pacific time...

    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  14. #434
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Still waiting for my last order to arrive. Fedex left it sitting in a warehouse in Texas for two days.
    It was supposed to be here yesterday. Now, they will not give a prediction on delivery.
    I am going to have to do a close inspection when it gets here to see if it all there.

  15. #435
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    "dangit all anyway taz!" ... Don't they know we ain't got time to be fooling around waiting on some goof who ain't paying attention!

    Well...got out with the new Caldwell Rock a day or two ago... Some things have changed, my node is off by a little.

    I have to run that rest turned around backwards to get the controls on the right side...



    I don't have a stock fore-end stop this way, the one on the Rock is now facing me. You can see how the CZ used to sit on the old Caldwell pictured on top...the rest was cradling the stock about mid-forestock. Now I need a way to keep the stock flush with the front side of the rest.



    I added a couple screws and some rubber bushings I had in a junk drawer...now it can index properly each time without having to feel with my hand or look to see...



    This support being so much farther out on the forestock, I think adds a little 'dampening' to the harmonics. I figure there's more flex to the stock with it positioned this way.
    I know my harmonics have changed...you can see it in the 'cursory 2-shot testing' of the tuner between the last time I did it and this time when I tested again this morning. The nodes have shifted as much as a couple/three clicks or so...



    I stopped today with the 4.75-15 setting (target on right side) I think I can plainly see a node between 4.75-11 ~ 4.75-14, this appears to be the bottom-most swing of the barrel and it does line up with my elevation setting from before.



    I have another 'dead calm' coming in the morning and I'll take a look at these settings with 5-shot groupings.

    Conditions this morning...

    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  16. #436
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I see the temperature was 83 F so the speed of sound would be 1142 fps. I'm curious about the actual effect that might have on accuracy. It looks as though it might be making a difference. To me it seems that at the nodes the holes are intersecting. Or am I imagining things? Targets 11, 12 & 13 sure give that impression and so do several others.

    Either way, nice shooting!
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  17. #437
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    I see the temperature was 83 F so the speed of sound would be 1142 fps. I'm curious about the actual effect that might have on accuracy. It looks as though it might be making a difference. To me it seems that at the nodes the holes are intersecting. Or am I imagining things? Targets 11, 12 & 13 sure give that impression and so do several others.

    Either way, nice shooting!
    We'll see? There's the error's to consider too...them by me & the SD of this batch of Match. Holes touching is a must but...trying to find a node where the vertical dispersion is minimal also.

    When you figure the speed of sound, are you using 2,200' ASL here in the mountains?
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  18. #438
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    We'll see? There's the error's to consider too...them by me & the SD of this batch of Match. Holes touching is a must but...trying to find a node where the vertical dispersion is minimal also.

    When you figure the speed of sound, are you using 2,200' ASL here in the mountains?
    Don't worry about air pressure changing the speed of sound, Here is a link and some text that explains why you don't need to worry about altitude when figuring the speed of sound.
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/terms/speed_of_sound.htm

    Speed of sound

    The speed of sound is a term used to describe the speed of sound waves passing through an elastic medium.

    The speed varies with the medium employed (for example, sound waves move faster through water than through air), as well as with the properties of the medium, especially temperature.

    The term is commonly used to refer specifically to the speed of sound in air.

    At sea level, at a temperature of 21 degrees Celsius (70 degrees Fahrenheit) and under normal atmospheric conditions, the speed of sound is 344 m/s (1238 km/h or 770 mph).

    The speed varies depending on atmospheric conditions; the most important factor is the temperature.

    Humidity has little effect on the speed of sound, nor does air pressure by itself.

    Air pressure has no effect at all in an ideal gas approximation.

    This is because pressure and density both contribute to sound velocity equally, and in an ideal gas the two effects cancel out, leaving only the effect of temperature.

    Sound usually travels more slowly with greater altitude, due to reduced temperature.
    End quote.

    There are a number of calculators for speed of sound available online where all you need to do is plug in the temperature.

  19. #439
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    tazman has covered it. Where altitude does matter is with the downrange velocity of the bullet. Your downrange velocity will be greater than mine. This could mean your boolits are staying in the transonic zone longer but on the converse, will be less effected by it. Also, the warmer the weather, the less the air density. Probably not significant for us.

    At a constant temperature, the gas pressure has no effect on the speed of sound, since the density will increase, and since pressure and density (also proportional to pressure) have equal but opposite effects on the speed of sound, and the two contributions cancel out exactly.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 06-04-2021 at 09:58 PM.
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  20. #440
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    OS-OK-------- You remember the talk a while back about the first cold bore shot not being in the group? I have one for you.
    I have a CZ 455 varminter the puts the first shot out of the group. Not only out of the group, but nearly three inches high every time.
    I shoot that first shot and think, "Am I going to have to change the scope?" Then I shoot the next shot and it is right at point of aim and all the following shots go to point of aim as well. Doesn't seem to matter if the barrel is cleaned or dirty.
    It makes me a little nervous having a rifle that does this. The nerve wracking part is it seems to be my current best group shooter. Not by much but right there with the MTR.
    All I can do with the rifle is shoot targets. I surely can't take it out squirrel hunting with a cold bore shot like that.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check