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Thread: New to using a 'F-CLASS BR' at 50 yards...

  1. #401
    Boolit Master
    dtknowles's Avatar
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    I would not put quite so much blame on yourself. The gun/equipment is not perfect and the ammo is not perfect even if the conditions are almost perfect. I am seeing what I think are less than half inch groups. Do you think your errors are responsible for a quarter inch of that? Don't doubt yourself that much. I don't think a quarter inch of that is you.

    I wondered for a long time if the reason I was not shooting under 1 moa was because I was a bad shot. I decided to do something about it. I bought a used bench rest rifle, some good rests and a high power scope. With a little practice, like less than a couple hundred rounds I was shooting groups under a .25 MOA at 100 yards pretty consistently. So, yeah, I was not the problem I was shooting big groups. It was the guns I was shooting. Also in factory chambers there is only so much you can do to make great ammo too. Premium bullets, careful brass prep, weighed charges, consistent neck tension/crimp/distance off the lands they help. Sometimes neck sizing only helps but it won't turn a cheap gun into a consistent sub-moa gun. Factory guns are getting better now even some cheap ones, I hear but most of the under 1 moa groups I see are 3 shot groups and not 5 of them in a row.

    Just about every group I see you post including the 25 shot targets you post look like good shooting to me.

    Tim
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  2. #402
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
    I didn't answer you simply because it's hard to say. At the end of the day it will not hurt anything either. Even if you don't see any improvement in your 1st shot flier (could be caused by other things/this you can not control), show should see an improvement in the bbl settling in quicker/less shots. You will also feel the difference in the amount of force it takes to push whatever your using to go into that area along with cleaning quicker/less strokes.

    Burnishing:
    This is actually what you are doing the the throat of the leade. I do the same thing to all my revolver cylinders in the leade area of them. It makes a huge difference in the carbon ring build-up in them. JB bore paste is 1200 grit which is just aggressive enough to not only remove the carbon/build-up from those area. It will slowly remove imperfections in the metal while making a mirror finish in that area.

    In the firearms world, these 2 items are your friend.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    The JB bore paste for polishing & the moly bore treatment for getting the most out of bolts/fp hits, trigger groups, feed ramps, etc.
    That's fine. If you are not certain, I can certainly live with that since I don't have any idea myself.
    The data on the bore paste is interesting.
    Other than getting possible burrs out of the chamber/leade area, I don't know if I have much use for it.

  3. #403
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    OS_OK--- I just found the only ARA Unlimited division target I have in the house. The center ring measures exactly 1/2 inch on the outside just like your IBS Rimfire target does. It is scored a bit differently though. Check post number 344 in this thread for the scoring picture.
    If you ever need to test against a current official target, you can get these the same place you bought your Eley ammo.

  4. #404
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    That's fine. If you are not certain, I can certainly live with that since I don't have any idea myself.
    The data on the bore paste is interesting.
    Other than getting possible burrs out of the chamber/leade area, I don't know if I have much use for it.
    Have no idea why you keep saying burrs, thinking burrs, only think that your dealing with burrs??? What you're looking at and doing is way beyond burrs.

    At the end of the day what your saying is that bbl left the factory with a 1200grit finish to it.

  5. #405
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
    Have no idea why you keep saying burrs, thinking burrs, only think that your dealing with burrs??? What you're looking at and doing is way beyond burrs.

    At the end of the day what your saying is that bbl left the factory with a 1200grit finish to it.
    I have put a near mirror finish on 1911 ramps with 600 grit wet paper, what are you saying about the 1200 grit? I don't get your meaning Forrest.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  6. #406
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
    Have no idea why you keep saying burrs, thinking burrs, only think that your dealing with burrs??? What you're looking at and doing is way beyond burrs.

    At the end of the day what your saying is that bbl left the factory with a 1200grit finish to it.
    At this point, I am not certain we are talking about the same thing. What, exactly, are you referring to?

  7. #407
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    OS_OK--- I just found the only ARA Unlimited division target I have in the house. The center ring measures exactly 1/2 inch on the outside just like your IBS Rimfire target does. It is scored a bit differently though. Check post number 344 in this thread for the scoring picture.
    If you ever need to test against a current official target, you can get these the same place you bought your Eley ammo.
    taz . . . It's not that I need to test, I've done nothing but test since I started this thread... it's that we never see any practice targets posted here where they give as many examples as I do in practice, what we see are cherry picked 'best target work' examples. Many times we see only a 'cropped target' as I have posted below.
    Every old'Dog finds a bone from time to time, what I want to see is what these near perfect rifles do on a regular basis...targets back to back from the entire practice session just as I have posted here.
    If I only posted examples like this...



    ...then I would be misleading you and all the others who follow this thread. I am not out to show that I'm some kind of champion shooter who has the best equipment, I am out to show the 'trials & tribulations' of trying to make something good...better.
    The only way to judge the work of any particular rifle is to see it's complete work...target to target including the less than perfect ammunition and the human error working together & uncensored, unless it's a machine rest I doubt that the combination of human and machine will produce this perfection even 90% of the time...and we have already seen what a machine rest will do, it's only as good as the operators adjustments & the ammo it's fed.

    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  8. #408
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    OS OK----- My thought was you could use the target and compare to the scores of posted competition results to see what others are doing with similar equipment.
    The ARA has official competitions all over the place. Many are held at small clubs and only have a few shooters present. I went to one a couple of weeks ago(I didn't compete in the unlimited division).
    The competition results from these small shoots are posted on the ARA website. It would let you know how others are doing.

    Here is a link to some recent results from small area competitions from around the US.
    https://www.americanrimfire.com/index.php/results

    I believe you would have either won or placed very high in several of these.
    It looks like there are around 14 clubs listed in California alone that are ARA members. At least 7 of them are active and holding competitions.
    Last edited by tazman; 05-29-2021 at 09:01 AM.

  9. #409
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    OS OK----- My thought was you could use the target and compare to the scores of posted competition results to see what others are doing with similar equipment.
    The ARA has official competitions all over the place. Many are held at small clubs and only have a few shooters present. I went to one a couple of weeks ago(I didn't compete in the unlimited division).
    The competition results from these small shoots are posted on the ARA website. It would let you know how others are doing.

    Here is a link to some recent results from small area competitions from around the US.
    https://www.americanrimfire.com/index.php/results

    I believe you would have either won or placed very high in several of these.
    It looks like there are around 14 clubs listed in California alone that are ARA members. At least 7 of them are active and holding competitions.
    thanks taz . . . but I don't care about the scores that's all I saw in your link, I want to see the actual targets so I can study how their groups tend to wander around the bull or not...looking at the actual targets will tell me a lot more than the scores. I am looking for trends in the groupings.
    They, no doubt shoot on the best nodes they can muster...I want to see how those nodes cut paper in a long series of targets.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  10. #410
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Just a suggestion, contact one of the people who put on the shoots and ask him to email you some pictures of the targets. I am sure they would understand your reasons for the request and would probably be happy to help out.

  11. #411
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Speaking of getting some pictures... I found this & I think it may fit the bill so we can have a good look inside the barrel and chamber.



    I use the iPhone for a camera for stills & video and I keep an iPad in the shop (comes in handy for doing jug busts in slo-mo and as a second angle camera back when I did a lot of videos of casting & HP testing) & this bore scope is compatible (me hopes!)



    These extra mirrors with varying diameters will let me see in all my rifles, my-my how they nickel and dime us to death. As far as I'm concerned, this should be part of a package...not 'extra costs'.



    Now we'll have a good look at a wet swabbed, dry swabbed & a dirty, errr...I should say 'seasoned' barrel, this should be very interesting. It's due around the 8'th of next month.
    "Come to think of it ... now I can pick up some side money to help cover the costs by doing side work as a 'Gastroenterologist' Cameraman ... ... gotta love all these hi-tech tools of today!"
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  12. #412
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
    Have no idea why you keep saying burrs, thinking burrs, only think that your dealing with burrs??? What you're looking at and doing is way beyond burrs.

    At the end of the day what your saying is that bbl left the factory with a 1200grit finish to it.
    Surface finishes are measured in micro-inches

    Name:  Surface finish.png
Views: 64
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    You familiar with this symbol. This is what you might get with 600 or 750 grit. Not a mirror finish but is probably as good as you will get with any barrel that has not been lapped. Certainly better than anything cut, broached, machined or buttoned.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  13. #413
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    At this point, I am not certain we are talking about the same thing. What, exactly, are you referring to?
    I think what he is trying to tell you is that if you don't lap/polish your bore it will not have a superfine finish. As far as burrs, you would need to be very specific. Burrs come in all sorts of varieties. I think you are talking about sharp edges or rough spots.

    I don't think shooting .22 lr will do much for burrs and not even much for rough spots. They night break sharp edges. I don't think Lapping will do much for burrs either unless it is fire lapping. A barrel can be too polished, a mirror surface does not hold any lube.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  14. #414
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    taz . . . It's not that I need to test, I've done nothing but test since I started this thread... it's that we never see any practice targets posted here where they give as many examples as I do in practice, what we see are cherry picked 'best target work' examples. Many times we see only a 'cropped target' as I have posted below.
    Every old'Dog finds a bone from time to time, what I want to see is what these near perfect rifles do on a regular basis...targets back to back from the entire practice session just as I have posted here.
    If I only posted examples like this...

    ...
    ...then I would be misleading you and all the others who follow this thread. I am not out to show that I'm some kind of champion shooter who has the best equipment, I am out to show the 'trials & tribulations' of trying to make something good...better.
    The only way to judge the work of any particular rifle is to see it's complete work...target to target including the less than perfect ammunition and the human error working together & uncensored, unless it's a machine rest I doubt that the combination of human and machine will produce this perfection even 90% of the time...and we have already seen what a machine rest will do, it's only as good as the operators adjustments & the ammo it's fed.

    First those machine rest targets are measured wrong.

    Second, I understand what you would like to see. I think the only way you can do that is to go to a match and ask people to show you their targets. I think some matches post the scored targets for everyone to see. If I was shooting more often I would share targets with you. They would make you feel good, they would not be as good as yours but then that would not be helpful either.

    I think what you are after is are you done or is their room for improvement. I think the answer is, very little room for improvement. I think you have the gun dialed in except for maybe a click one way or the other for the day's conditions, maybe try and find a little better lot of ammo. Avoid the occasional flyer you might cause but I think you are more than 95% done.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  15. #415
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Actually what I'm saying has nothing to do with bores, burrs, tooling marks, etc.

    I guess burnishing is an outdated word.

    The rimfire game is won or lost before the bullet ever enters the bbl. How many times have you ever herd "I never clean my 22lr bbl and it's extremely accurate".
    I absolutely believe people when they say this!!! The hunting crowd uses the sporter chamber.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    After years of shooting the carbon ring keeps building up making the "C" measurement shorter turning the chamber into a match chamber. Couple that with the hard paraffin based lubes filling defects and aging rock hard over the years. Target rifles didn't matter simply because only .8" groups were needed @ 50yds, 2.4"'s @ 100yds. Besides everyone knows that anyone with a box of walmart bulkpack and a 10/22 can shoot 1/2" groups all day long with a note from their mama & if "they do their part".

    When rimfire br came along and the idea was to hit a dot (head shot on a fly @ 50yds) reality sets in.

    The b to d area of the picture posted above is the area I'm talking about, the leade of the bbl's chamber. When this area is highly polished (1200grit/barnished) it does several things for you. 1st and foremost it stay clean/carbon free longer. You start to get a build-up in that area and it not only strips the lube (soft/oily) off of the bullet unevenly, it will swage the bullet off center. Bbl's will settle in quicker and stay at an optimum level longer the longer this area stays clean.

    You want that area of the chamber as pristine as possible and to stay that way as long as possible. Better bbl's typically don't need anything done to them but it's a good idea to keep this area clean and take a look at it after every outing. What your looking for is a build-up that keeps starting in the same area. That's telling you it's time to do a little barnishing.

    Factory/production will always benefit from this.

    Anyway it really doesn't matter to me what you do, I just find it interesting that how many 1000's of rounds have went down range from several shooters and no one has taken the time to see if this area (the most important part of the bbl) has any issues.

    A lot of shooters clean their bbl's after every card, they do this for a reason. The easiest way to say it is you can always duplicate clean.

  16. #416
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    nonplussed : unsure about what to say, think, or do : perplexed . . . thank you TIM for the kind words of encouragement. However I can't stop at this point with more discovery to be found inside the chamber and bore...a place that most of us can only imagine without having seen in there in detail. I may never trim that last 5% down but at least We will all get a good look at what Forrest r is trying to explain.

    I think it was in the "Peep & Globe'' thread that Forrest first posted this chart about chamber dimensions. Back when I was making jigs to measure the rounds and hopefully find those that had the best advantage of getting centered up in that cone and presenting themselves to the bore most perfectly...



    The above jig was used to measure the distance to the front of the drive band from the rim of the cartridge...I called it COAL/fdb (cartirdge over all length/to front drive band).
    Below is a jig for measuring rim thickness...



    I can't recall all the time spent segregating these rounds by every dimension & weight to be found...in a commercial chamber it is an exercise in futility for the most part...



    I hadn't any idea of the varying 'custom chambers' until Forrest posted this chart. I've come to believe that in the long 'commercial chambers' offered up by most of the American gun makers we have little chance of really finding perfection in these rifles like the Savage MKII I use.

    When I found the CZ452 and brought it home I was stunned to see the real difference in the chambers...stunned to see these rifling marks on the drive band where these custom chambers allow the soft lead to jam into the lands...



    You can't align a round in the bore any better than this...well, any better than I know of.
    Now we are talking about carbon ring build-up in that lead/cone of the chamber...this I want to see as we go deeper into this Rabbit Hole.

    Hang in there boys, we are going deep, deep & deeper in the coming weeks. The bore scope is coming soon!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  17. #417
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Forrest r---Thanks. Now I understand what you meant.
    And I was right about us talking about different things for the most part.

    I had an experience with a new CZ 455 Varmint Evolution rifle where it was shooting relatively poorly and, all of a sudden it changed and started shooting really well and has continued to shoot well. Changed as in nearly from one shot to the next it went from a group to a hole. My thinking was, there was a small burr of some kind causing the inaccuracy and it either wore off or broke off due to the number of shots fired. Broken in as it were. No changes had been made to the rifle during this process other than a few different types/brands of ammo.
    This rifle has been cleaned and shot several times since that happened and is still shooting great.

    My CZ 457 MTR is shooting well but not quite as well as I would like. It comes with a match chamber from the factory. The chambering is such that the rifling leaves marks on a chambered round. Not enough to pull the bullet out of the case. Just leave marks all the way around the bullet.

    I am going to get some of the bore paste and work on the barrel as you suggest.

    I also ordered a bore scope. Interested in what we will see when it gets here.

  18. #418
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    Forrest r---Thanks. Now I understand what you meant.
    And I was right about us talking about different things for the most part.

    I had an experience with a new CZ 455 Varmint Evolution rifle where it was shooting relatively poorly and, all of a sudden it changed and started shooting really well and has continued to shoot well. Changed as in nearly from one shot to the next it went from a group to a hole. My thinking was, there was a small burr of some kind causing the inaccuracy and it either wore off or broke off due to the number of shots fired. Broken in as it were. No changes had been made to the rifle during this process other than a few different types/brands of ammo.
    This rifle has been cleaned and shot several times since that happened and is still shooting great.

    My CZ 457 MTR is shooting well but not quite as well as I would like. It comes with a match chamber from the factory. The chambering is such that the rifling leaves marks on a chambered round. Not enough to pull the bullet out of the case. Just leave marks all the way around the bullet.

    I am going to get some of the bore paste and work on the barrel as you suggest.

    I also ordered a bore scope. Interested in what we will see when it gets here.
    "Every 5¢ spent is another secret unlocked to us all!"
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  19. #419
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Now I am having problems locating some of the J-B bore paste. Everywhere I checked online was out.

  20. #420
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    Now I am having problems locating some of the J-B bore paste. Everywhere I checked online was out.
    Did you look at Brownells?

    https://shop.brownells.com/gun-clean...b0435177aae0a7

    It appears to be in stock there?
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check