New to using a 'F-CLASS BR' at 50 yards...

[OS OK]

I built my version of that wind indicator today...



I made it from that plastic corrugated sign board & hot glued it together...



I drilled a slip-fit hole for an axle in the top of an old rickety tripod to fit a rivet, made a little bushing for it to turn on, then drilled the arrow to slip-fit-tight the top of the rivet (had to grind the rivet a little to fit tight)...



I removed the field point on the arrow and ground a 5/16" bolt to glue fit so I could use it for a counter-balance...



Since this is the only one (so far) I think I'll put it at the 25 yard mark, that's half way.

[tazman]

Very nice. I am looking forward to a range report on this.

[OS OK]

Very nice. I am looking forward to a range report on this.

I am sure I will be able to read more accurately the angle of the wind and have a better idea of where exactly I should make my offset in my POA compensating but whether or not my shooting will improve is the greater question....

[OS OK]

Very nice. I am looking forward to a range report on this.

Your going to get a kick out of this taz... This morning was perfect, very light wind but it was switching around some...
The new wind flag was placed 20 yards in front of me in the shooting lane...so far so good right?



My brain got real twisted, didn't have a problem with the wind indicator but I had a problem in my brain regarding 'arrows' ... ready for this?
Arrows point at things. My mind took a look at the arrow indicator and immediately translated it as the 'arrow' is pointing in the direction of the wind! Even after the range session, I'm in the shop labeling the individual targets from my notes and when I went to write in the upper right corner the overall wind conditions...my mind reflected on the new wind arrow and labeled it like the arrow was pointing...I even wonder if my target notes are even close to being right?
In reality the arrow is point in the direction that the wind is coming from...well, that didn't register at first.

Next I had the iPhone out and opened to this picture here...(in my mind, those arrows on the chart were corresponding with the wind indicator arrow...now the confusion has doubled down in my brain!!!)



Simple enough right, look at the arrow indicator then quickly glance at the phone and see the offset that this wind direction causes and then shoot across the clock in the opposite direction by the amount of deflection you estimate for the speed of the wind.

I have been thinking of this routine for several days now as the rain kept me off the range...now this morning it is clear weather, sunny & I'm ready to go like gang busters!

Look at the first 5 targets! It's a wonder I even hit the 10 ring at all...today I am out to shoot 'X's' in the wind...this confused me to no end as my mind is still working on the premise that the dang arrow is pointing in the direction of the wind!
This is funny as heck now but it wasn't at the moment I was shooting!



In the end & after having to stop several times and talk to myself...explain to myself over and over about that dang wind arrow indicator and the fact that it is POINTING IN THE DIRECTION THAT THE WIND IS COMING FROM...I still had a good time and I am glad I have this new wind indicating arrow gizmo...BUT...I seriously have to un-program my mind about arrows pointing at stuff!
I had cleaned the bore with a wet Hoppes patch and in the 3 warmer spots the rifle re-seasoned in the first 10 shots and shots 11 ~ 15 went into a .151" group (as near as I can measure with the calipers), I guess I'd have to say that was the 'hi-point' of my day today.

[tazman]

That makes me wonder if you aren't a little bit dyslexic.
Think about this. The arrow points in the direction you need to hold off in the majority of cases.
About that chart, some of those indications are counter intuitive. They just don't seem correct somehow. I can't say they are wrong because I don't have any experience to back up such an assertion.

[OS OK]

I don't think dyslexic describes what I experienced...(Dyslexia is a learning disorder that involves difficulty reading due to problems identifying speech sounds and learning how they relate to letters and words (decoding). Also called reading disability, dyslexia affects areas of the brain that process language. People with dyslexia have normal intelligence and usually have normal vision.)

What I was trying to say is that up until now, I have always used the arrow to point at something...ie. as in a drawing, something electrical or mechanical where there is a side notation and the arrow points to the place in the drawing where that notation applies.
In the chart the arrow is pointing out wind direction, but it's an arrow. In the new and improved home built gizmo I made, the arrow points at where the wind is coming from, not the direction the wind is blowing like the arrows in the chart.
That's what I was getting turned around about, there's a simple fix...I just re-program my brain to remember that the wind indicator arrow gizmo is pointing to where the wind is coming from.
It's not a serious brain malfunction or deficit in my ability...it was just a funny thing that happened & because it did happen, I won't forget it again.
Compensating for the wind with these little .22 pills running subsonic is not really that simple because of the way they react to the wind.

[tazman]

You could make the arrowhead as you made the vanes and remove the vanes. That would make the arrow point the direction the wind is blowing. Hanging a ribbon from the tip of the arrowhead would help the effect.

[tazman]

Temps in the low 40s today with very little wind. Just the occasional swirl to take a person down a notch and give your group a flyer.
Nice and sunny.

I took my three best shooting 22lr rifles with me to try out some different brands and see how they did in cooler weather.
I had picked up three boxes each of Eley Club, Lapua Midas +, and S&K Rifle Match(red box).
I began each rifle with Eley Match and then continued shooting that rifle with Eley Club, then S&K Rifle Match, and finally Lapua Midas +.
I started with Eley Match because I knew how that ammo shot in each of these rifles.
The MTR liked all of it. Nothing performed particularly better than another. I didn't shoot any Eley Tenex through it today but that always shoots really well in this rifle.
Next up was the AT-1. It was doing really well today with the Eley Match. It also did really well with the Eley Club. It did poorly with the S&K and the Lapua. Not sure why. I shot plenty of seasoning shots so that should not have been an issue and when I switched back to the Eley, the rifle immediately began shooting well again. I guess it only likes Eley ammo.
The 452 Trainer shot the Eley Match and Eley club really well. I even posted a 1 inch group with the Club at 100 yards. When I changed brands of ammo, the accuracy dropped way off.
The MTR has a match chamber and the other two do not. I suspect that may be a good part of the accuracy difference with the different ammo brands.

Since all three of these rifles like Eley ammo, I guess that is what I will feed them. I am going to stop experimenting with other brands and just use what works in all of them.

[OS OK]

Temps in the low 40s today with very little wind. Just the occasional swirl to take a person down a notch and give your group a flyer.
Nice and sunny.

I took my three best shooting 22lr rifles with me to try out some different brands and see how they did in cooler weather.
I had picked up three boxes each of Eley Club, Lapua Midas +, and S&K Rifle Match(red box).
I began each rifle with Eley Match and then continued shooting that rifle with Eley Club, then S&K Rifle Match, and finally Lapua Midas +.
I started with Eley Match because I knew how that ammo shot in each of these rifles.
The MTR liked all of it. Nothing performed particularly better than another. I didn't shoot any Eley Tenex through it today but that always shoots really well in this rifle.
Next up was the AT-1. It was doing really well today with the Eley Match. It also did really well with the Eley Club. It did poorly with the S&K and the Lapua. Not sure why. I shot plenty of seasoning shots so that should not have been an issue and when I switched back to the Eley, the rifle immediately began shooting well again. I guess it only likes Eley ammo.
The 452 Trainer shot the Eley Match and Eley club really well. I even posted a 1 inch group with the Club at 100 yards. When I changed brands of ammo, the accuracy dropped way off.
The MTR has a match chamber and the other two do not. I suspect that may be a good part of the accuracy difference with the different ammo brands.

Since all three of these rifles like Eley ammo, I guess that is what I will feed them. I am going to stop experimenting with other brands and just use what works in all of them.

THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING TAZ...but, this inquiring mind needs to know...(I'm always trying to reason things out, you know...the why's?)

Do you know the speed of all those brands, the ES & SD's? Did that vary by much or a lot? Barrel time is the factor on when the pill leaves the barrel and which way the barrel is pointing during the harmonics.

Another question would be about the different types of lube they use. The E. Tenex I believe is bee's wax - tallow. The E. Match & Club, I think are just paraffin. I don't know about the other brands. It makes me wonder how the different lubes lay down in the barrel and react to different layers laying over them? Just a thought...

PS...I'm over the 'arrow problem'...I haven't screwed up again but then again, I haven't been shooting to try to calculate & compensate for the wind either. Been just taking my groups wherever they fall. I'll worry about the wind again later.

Also got an email from Brownells...my C4 is on the way.

[tazman]

I am sorry. I didn't even think to take my chronograph with me. I don't have any data to offer in that regard.
My trip to the range was almost spur of the moment and I didn't do much in the way of planning.

[OS OK]

I am sorry. I didn't even think to take my chronograph with me. I don't have any data to offer in that regard.
My trip to the range was almost spur of the moment and I didn't do much in the way of planning.

I can understand that very well taz...
Sometimes I just want to shoot, try hard for good groups & pay attention only to what I want to do and to hell with data!

[tazman]

A you tube channel called "Pursuit of Accuracy" just posted a video of him shooting his tricked out CZ 457 at the ARA Unlimited target.
It appears that shooting a target card makes him a bit nervous. He didn't do nearly as well as that rifle is capable of.
Of course he was making some excuses before he even started but still fired a respectable score. Something around 2150 out of 2500.
I think he could do better if he got used to the target but that takes time and paper targets are not what he likes to do.
He does have a very nice setup there. Timney trigger, custom barrel, Manners stock, and a very expensive(by my standards) optic on top of it.
I have seen him shoot a series of groups with that rifle that would easily put all 25 shots inside the center ring but he couldn't do it today.

I can understand that very well taz...
Sometimes I just want to shoot, try hard for good groups & pay attention only to what I want to do and to hell with data!

That was exactly what I was doing. I wanted to see what my rifles would do with this different ammunition and the grouping tells the story.
No real point in taking data from a failed ammo test. Not really anything there to learn.
Did I miss something with that last statement?

[dverna]

I almost regret posting this...but I will bare my soul....

I bought a chronograph about 15 years ago and have never used it. It seemed to be the “in thing” to do but at the time I shot at a public range and it seemed like such a PITA. For the last 9 years I have had a private range and so that excuse no longer has much weight.

Here are my thoughts and I hope you guys will be brutally honest about why I am misinformed. Once I have a load that shoots well, the ES and SD of velocity seem unimportant. With the .22 LR, there is nothing I can do to tweak a load...it is what it is. A load with an ES of 50 fps that shoots into .75” at 50 yards is better than a load with an ES of 25 fps that shoots 1” groups.

When I purchased the chronograph I was interested in CF rifle loads, but the reality was the same. Does ES matter if I am getting good groups? What am I missing?

[OS OK]

No taz...it means what I said exactly. I am a data bug, it's all food for thought but sometimes I just want to shoot, try hard for good groups & pay attention only to what I want to do and to hell with data!
But...I have to disagree about taking numbers from a failed test, I believe there's just as much information in a fail as in a success...sorta like concentrating completely on this one tree in front of you, getting all the information you can about this one tree, when all the failed & seemingly non-pertinent information you tried to gather actually paints all the trees around it...hmmmm.......I might ought'a erase that statement, I'm not sure I'm getting the point across?

dverna...Once I have a load that shoots well, the ES and SD of velocity seem unimportant.

I agree...that's the bottom line & an end to it. You have an ammo that compliments the rifle and get good results. The only reason I like to see numbers like these is they are sorta like the pedigree of the ammunition. Again...it's just data I think about. I am by no means a mathematician but numbers are a descriptive language of their own & apply to just about everything in life.


I know what both of'Yas are thinking about now . . . ."Dang...that charlie is waaay out there somewhere, I wonder when it was he lost it?"

[tazman]

I know what both of'Yas are thinking about now . . . ."Dang...that charlie is waaay out there somewhere, I wonder when it was he lost it?"

I know exactly when it became apparent that you lost it. It happened when you purchased that fine CZ bench rest rifle and dove down the rabbit hole of tight groups with a 22LR.
Up til then, you were working with low cost rifles and low cost ammunition and striving for what should be a reasonable goal for anyone to achieve.
Now you (and I) are working to obtain consistently tiny groups with ammunition we have little to no control over in rifles that have the potential to cost thousands of dollars depending on which accessories you want to use. We pore over data and statistics in an attempt to make our results consistent even though our ammunition is ever changing from lot to lot and the conditions we test under are highly variable on a day to day basis.
At least it keeps us occupied and to a certain extent, entertained, in a harmless pursuit of perfection which we can probably never achieve on any kind of long term basis.

If we weren't doing this, we would probably be bass fishermen or even, shudder, participating in fantasy football leagues.
Fortunately, our obsession is fun and entertaining. We can also provide some knowledge as we learn in our struggles, failures, and successes, to those observers who are less afflicted(code word for nuts) than we are.

[OS OK]

WOW TAZMAN...You pretty much nailed it. You are the wordsmith I could never be...well spoken.
We have a little country bar about a mile from here, a place where I find many of my neighbors and acquaintances hanging out every time I drive past there. Sometimes I'll stop in on my way from home from town have a drink or two and chat with the boys for a while. I always leave there thinking, if it weren't for the grace of God and this little hobby of mine, I'd prolly be in there on a regular basis too. "Thank God above for 'rabbit-holes'!"

I forgot to comment on your mentioning the fella on 'Pursuit of Accuracy'. I've been following him also. He makes me a little crazy with his excuses & especially so about the wind. I once commented that he should put some ribbons up so we can see the wind for ourselves...I think he took that as a negative comment. I was thinking that since he shows us his scope-cam view & the offset he uses at distance, that it would give me some good data on compensating for the wind.
I also observed the trouble he has shooting groups too. I am thinking that 'slapping steel', even at greater range, tends to make for sloppy shooting. What I mean is that all that matters to him is hitting the steel, it does require some precision but it doesn't make him bear down and work a single bughole. If you get my drift. His style, I guess is more of precision rapid fire for those contest he shoots, even the overall design of the rifle is compact and short to make handling quicker and easier to set up a shot...his rifles wouldn't be my choice for the pursuit of small groups.
Several times I've tried to get him to try shooting through a Life Saver at 50 yards but so far he ain't biting on that challenge!

Give him some maturing time on trigger and I think he will figure it out...'the shooter is always the weakest link in this chain.'

PS/EDIT... I ran across a thread at rimfirecentral.com and discovered a rare posting...someone who actually uses numbers to express himself. Someone who doesn't say..."Mine shoots good/better/best." More data for the 'rabbit-hole'.



from this thread... https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum....php?t=1234975

[dverna]

OS OK, I lean to your thinking about many steel bangers. It is a "feel good" type of shooting that rewards "good enough". Nothing wrong with that...it is all fun...but unless the steel is small and/or far away the need for precision is missing. Deficiencies in load, rifle and/or the shooter are glossed over in the pursuit of happiness. A miss on steel may be .001" off the plate or 4"....it all looks the same so there is limited feedback from the error.

I have said it before but will do so again. I have followed your journey down the rabbit hole with a lot of interest in part because of your honesty. So many people will shoot a couple of great groups and post their "success". Those who shoot a lot of groups know better. The laws of statistics are a cruel mistress that can not be ignored unless someone wants to fool themselves or others. You post all your groups....that is reality.

Having said all that, we have a dueling tree that is a blast to shoot with pistols and pistol carbines. No need for MOA performance and we can send a lot of rounds downrange in short order. Good practice for when the Zombies attack. But I still spend most of my time shooting paper. Paper is where the truth about accuracy is told.

Tazman gets it too. The background he has in competitive shooting shows through. There is an element of mental toughness and common sense good competitors have. They know one good target is not enough.

[tazman]

In bench rest shooting, perfection is a ten shot group that looks like a single bullet hole.
Not something you can realistically expect to achieve consistently but worth striving for.
Good enough is all the rounds inside the highest scoring ring on the target. Tough enough to do all by itself.
How close can a person come to this regularly.
That is what we search for.

[OS OK]

Don, you know there's a couple things about honesty...for one, no matter how small of a group you post, there is always someone coming down the pike who can do better.
The other is, when you tell the truth you don't have to remember something that never happened...you never get caught up in an intentional lie. Back in the day lying was kinda frowned upon...today, I'm not so sure?

I have had more fun in these several threads I've posted...each one a 'rabbit-hole' of it's own...I have learned so much from all you fellas that I would have never been aware of...and for that, "I am forever grateful!"

charlie

[tazman]

The learning process has been mutual, I assure you.
We shall continue down this rabbit hole and see how far we can get.
We have learned so much already, I wonder what we can learn next.