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Thread: New to using a 'F-CLASS BR' at 50 yards...

  1. #481
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    tazman.... Do you think the humidity and temperature may be changing the torque value on your stock?
    Didn't you mention finding a torque that seemed to group best?

    If so? You may have to keep that torque wrench with you and check it every time out?

    Great range report, I would have liked to see all the flags and stuff they put out. I can imagine the hi-tec rests. I don't know whether or not I'd like that type of shooting?
    That way of looking through the scope makes sense, when I got the CZ it had extremely tall rings on it...I couldn't imagine how he could have used it and have a cheek weld unless he had a tall face.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  2. #482
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    tazman.... Do you think the humidity and temperature may be changing the torque value on your stock?
    Didn't you mention finding a torque that seemed to group best?

    If so? You may have to keep that torque wrench with you and check it every time out?

    Great range report, I would have liked to see all the flags and stuff they put out. I can imagine the hi-tec rests. I don't know whether or not I'd like that type of shooting?
    That way of looking through the scope makes sense, when I got the CZ it had extremely tall rings on it...I couldn't imagine how he could have used it and have a cheek weld unless he had a tall face.
    I have the torque wrench in the bag with my ammo and check the settings before every usage. I even check to see if the settings stay the same over time.
    The pillar bedded 457 MTR doesn't change.
    The wood stocked rifles change some. The 455 varmint Evolution changes overnight but not during a shoot. It drops as much as 5-10 inch pounds over time. This change happens while the rifle is standing in the safe. The stock doesn't show any deformation inside where the metal and stock meet. The stock is laminate.
    The 455 varminter with a walnut stock changes a little but no more than 2-5 inch pounds and takes a much longer time to do so. It also doesn't show any deformation in the wood from metal contact.

    I haven't checked to see if temperature does it yet. I need to do that. Since I store the rifles in my air conditioned house, I should check before I take them to the range and then again before I shoot them.

  3. #483
    Boolit Man
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    The first two pics are targets I shot with my 40x today in switching winds. The third is just a picture of the layout of the range. The next two are targets I shot a month ago and the last one is the range layout and the very last one is a older pic of my setup I have since put a 3" wide plate under the forearm and offset scope rings. Click image for larger version. 

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  4. #484
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Y'all may remember I mentioned bedding my Toz-17. Well, I got to test it yesterday and for what it is, an old Russian very simple and cheap design with a rust damaged rifling leade, it was my best shooter for the day. I'm not sure what happened to the 510. Anyway, the thing is that what I found is that the gun is very sensitive to hold. I eventually got to no pressure on the stock. Then it shot well. Not one hole groups but I did shoot one or two pin tacks.

    Does light rain do anything to 22 accuracy? Damp weather probably does things to the stock which crossed my mind shooting the 510, which I have bedded on the fore-arm. That would be a three point bedding which worked well the previous shoot which was before being exposed to weeks of dampness.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  5. #485
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    TrxR... I'm relieved to see that other top shooters have a hard time with them 'X's' too. Tough lil'Buggers them 'X's'! That's a very nice looking rifle.
    Those are pretty dang good targets...what brand do you shoot in the rifle? Any tips-n-tricks to shoot that well?

    303Guy... Don't know about rain...we don't see a lot of that anymore here in Cali!
    I have my suspicions about wood stocks changing dimentionally (is that a word?) & changing torque values as the weather and temperature changes.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

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  6. #486
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    TrxR... I'm relieved to see that other top shooters have a hard time with them 'X's' too. Tough lil'Buggers them 'X's'! That's a very nice looking rifle.
    Those are pretty dang good targets...what brand do you shoot in the rifle? Any tips-n-tricks to shoot that well?

    303Guy... Don't know about rain...we don't see a lot of that anymore here in Cali!
    I have my suspicions about wood stocks changing dimentionally (is that a word?) & changing torque values as the weather and temperature changes.
    Ive been shooting center x out of it. Havent really tried anything else. Ive got a tuner for it that i need to to take time and test. My best score so far in a match is 500 and 29x. The majority of my targets are shot in matches. I should probably practice more.

  7. #487
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Shooting plastic pin tacks are definitely fun! This one took three shots to hit.



    OS, I thought about the torque but couldn't find my torqueing coin. I just go by feel. I shall be two point, pillar bedding the rifle soon.

    Looking at my targets I see that I should have continued with the rifle and shot a few groups. But I had fun with my Toz and the others. The Toz is calling out for more serious testing. I did get a quarter inch group with it (at 25m).
    Last edited by 303Guy; 06-13-2021 at 09:58 PM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  8. #488
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    The Life Saver Trick has been conquered by it's inventor. Used a .177 cal. air rifle @ 30 yards. Pretty amazing stuff...





    I might be working all next week on this one...better buy lotz of Life Savers too.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  9. #489
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    That is awesome!
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  10. #490
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    I haven't accomplished anything yet. I have had some days with very little if any, wind and have been trying to improve my groups.
    Right now, I am having some issues that I can't figure out. My groups are larger than the ones I shot last fall and early this spring using the same ammunition.
    I can see any movement in the scope and there isn't enough there to move the bullet out of the circle but it is still happening. I am getting 4-6 shots right on the dot in the center and the next may be cutting the outside of the ring.
    All the shots feel the same to me.
    I am capable of holding better than half MOA with my centerfire rifles. Why won't this match rifle do even 1 MOA consistently?
    This rifle costs more than my centerfires and the ammunition cost just as much or more in some cases. It is the best setup I can afford and it just doesn't shoot consistently.
    Maybe I am missing something. I assume that the same handling and shooting techniques that I use for my centerfire rifles will work for rimfire as well. Is this not true?

    I participated in that competition again yesterday. I watched the big boys get set up for their unlimited shoot.
    Lots of wind flags and speed indicators. They set them up on tripods in line with their targets and just under the line of flight of the bullets. Easy to see and very sensitive to any air movement. Usually 5-6 of them beginning about 25 feet in front of the bench with the last one maybe 10 yards from the target.
    The range gets colorful when the unlimiteds are shooting. Lots of variations in style of the flags but they all give the same information.

    The rests for the rifles are really something. All of them had a spring loaded connection to pull the rifle back to the same position on the rest after any recoil. All were fully adjustable for level and both vertical and horizontal alignment.
    Most shooters used the thumb and finger squeeze to fire the rifle. Some were discussing their trigger weight before the shoot began where I could listen. Trigger weights were in the 8-16 ounce range with most going as low as they could set it without the rifle firing when the bolt closed.
    I couldn't tell by watching from behind, if they had their shoulders in contact with the butt of the rifle or not. Bad angle for observing that.
    Many of them didn't have their cheek in contact with the rifle when looking through the scope for aiming. They were able to look through the scope without a cheek weld either by cocking their head or using higher rings.
    All of them had tuners of some sort on the barrel. No single brand dominated. Lots of different brands.
    Nearly all shooters were using either Eley match(black box) or Lapua(either Center X or Midas+).
    They would use levels when stapling their targets to the backstop so when they moved from one target dot to the next, it was all just a horizontal movement.

    They shoot 4 target sheets of 25 rounds each for score, plus sighters(which don't count) and do an aggregate for the total. Call it at least two and a half boxes of ammunition minimum, for a shoot.
    It takes them about 2 hours to do the entire shoot, give or take.

    There were several different brands of rifles there. Some were custom built. I didn't get close enough to see the scopes.

    I couldn't find a good position to observe from after they began shooting so I left.
    Reading your description of what the "big boys" do made me realize how ill suited I would be to such an endeavor. Lugging out and setting up a half dozen tripods to mount wind flags would kill it for me. Just too lazy for such stuff...both physically lazy (load up car, unload at range, set up at range, pack it back up, unload car) and mentally lazy...trying to figure out wind hold-off....yuck!!! All while using .22's that cost over $20/box.

    In my years of shooting I have found very few competitive events that remain fun. I either reach my level of incompetence and plateau, or get bored with it. The only thing that has always been fun is Trap Doubles.

    Funny how stuff like plinking stays fun. I think part of it is a miss is not catastrophic. Part of it is seeing a target react at the shot...a hit is a hit...no X's to worry about.

    Competitive shooting has made me a much better shooter but I have never stayed with one discipline for more than 10-12 years. This .22 BR would not interest me very long at all. But I respect the skill and dedication of those who perform well at any shooting sport. Having done this for over 50 years, I have only seen one "natural" so I know how tough it is to be really good at a shooting sport.

    I enjoy watching guys like you and OS OK embark on your new journeys. I am about the same age but lack the drive you guys have. My current fun is backyard plinking and eradicating those pesky varmints that invade my little slice of heaven. This weekend made a 54 yard shot off the front porch on a chipmuck and was proud as punch!!! Used my old bolt action .22 rifle my dad gave me 56 years ago. Not much of a shot by your standards...LOL
    Don Verna


  11. #491
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    dverna---I may well be in the same exact place as you are in a while.
    Since this is a "new" interest for me, the drive is there. Finances are what will be holding me back. I simply cannot afford to spend the bug bucks it takes to get the equipment the big boys use.
    I am trying to wring the best accuracy I can from the rifles I can afford. When I decide I have done so, I may well drop this and move on to something else.
    In the past, I have changed sports several times. usually because of injury or lack of finances. Right now, I have the funds and interest to do this. That can change if my situation changes.

  12. #492
    Boolit Man
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    I know about budgets. I shoot 2 matches a month of 22 benchrest and am rigging up a 30br centerfire for benchrest. Once its done i will be only shooting one match of each a month. I also try and shoot trap once a month and have a 308 ftr rifle i havent shot in a while.

  13. #493
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    dverna---I may well be in the same exact place as you are in a while.
    Since this is a "new" interest for me, the drive is there. Finances are what will be holding me back. I simply cannot afford to spend the bug bucks it takes to get the equipment the big boys use.
    I am trying to wring the best accuracy I can from the rifles I can afford. When I decide I have done so, I may well drop this and move on to something else.
    In the past, I have changed sports several times. usually because of injury or lack of finances. Right now, I have the funds and interest to do this. That can change if my situation changes.
    tazman... Now this is just me...my opinion, but...when I got done shooting factory class, I'd have that rifle pillar bedded by someone who knows how to do it well & then I'd go back to the practice line and see just how much accuracy I could wring out of that machine.
    Not having a factory class rifle set up I can't say for sure...but...I have an idea from working with the CZ452 that a pillar bedded rifle needs only to be snug-tight in the stock and the torque wrench would only to serve in not over torquing the screw size.

    I finally got the JB Bore Shine this morning, gave a clean bore 60 full strokes and stopped...the leade looks much better.



    and the top side of the rifling looks nice too...



    Next it was out to the 50 yd. line at 0700 and the wind was 'non-existent'...what a blessing. I rechecked the tuner settings from 4.75-9 ~ 4.75-13 & I think the latter is going to be my new tuner setting until something changes.



    I tried to measure the 9 ring with my calipers and the best I could do was a .260" diameter...that Life Saver is .285", if I work this setting and fine tune the scope I might have a chance?

    Next is to get a roll of white Life Savers and play that game for a while...see if by chance I can't sneak at least one round through that tiny hole without busting it!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  14. #494
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    OS OK-----The MTR is pillar bedded from the factory. I have been running factory suggested torque settings and did some experimenting just a few inch pounds either way to see if it mattered. I am going to the range tomorrow and will test with just snug settings and see what happens. It could be the settings in current use are stressing the receiver. Can't know without testing.
    I found out that I can't tighten the action screws to the recommended torque settings without using a torque wrench. The screwdriver type tool just doesn't give my old wrists enough leverage any more.

    I am going to re-shoot the ammo tests and see if things have changed on what ammo it prefers. It may be that after shooting over 1000 rounds through it, the wear is changing things.

  15. #495
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Good luck tazman...hope you have better luck than I did with the life savers today!



    It was a massacre!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  16. #496
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    You just need to shoot a few holes in the target and then glue the life savers over the holes. But where's the challenge in that?
    Some people just have to do things the hard way.

  17. #497
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Yeah but all the misaligned life savers would look a bit suspicious!
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  18. #498
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    Good luck tazman...hope you have better luck than I did with the life savers today!



    It was a massacre!
    What a travesty...all those treats smashed to hell. LOL
    Don Verna


  19. #499
    Boolit Master wilecoyote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    ... I assume that the same handling and shooting techniques that I use for my centerfire rifles will work for rimfire as well. Is this not true?
    I believe this is the problem, IMHO, and I believe the opposite is true. I have seen and envied excellent .22 free-rifle shooters have excellent results in BR with other rifles and other calibers.
    I would like to be more experienced & English fluent to support my words with irrefutable arguments, but I was and will remain an old, semi-illiterate, self-taught amateur.
    what is certain is that if I want to look hard without mercy at my limits & errors in the face, it is enough for me to pull out the Anschutz, shooting sling & tunnel/diopter, down prone, 50 meters, : .22 and the bullseye don't forgive me_

    I particularly appreciated the advice of a former Army gent, if I don'go wrong. He often posted on Sniper's Hide, obviously he was an NRA Instructor or better. If I had been wiser I would have collected all those posts to make a manual for my personal use.
    His nickname was Sterling Shooter, and I hope still posts, although SH has changed a bit.
    Last edited by wilecoyote; 06-17-2021 at 10:06 PM. Reason: Sterling Shooter
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  20. #500
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Well, I got to the range today and spent nearly three hours and four boxes of shells trying things out to see what, if anything, had changed.
    I ran through all the torque settings on the screws from 10 to 30 inch pounds and found that what I have been using is still the best and most consistent.
    I ran through all the varieties of match ammo I have on hand and didn't find anything that was better than or even as good as what I have been shooting in the rifle.
    I even tried putting a pad between the barrel and the stock in a couple of different places. That only made thing worse by a lot.
    I tried different ways of holding the rifle. Less pressure. No pressure. More pressure. Different methods of pulling the trigger. Different hand positions. No improvement.
    Ended up back where I was to start with.
    Still shooting four good shots and one flyer.
    Every once in a while I would string 8-9 good shots together and have a nice, tiny group and the next shot would be out there somewhere.
    Three different lots of Eley Tenex, Norma Match, RWS Target, and Aguila Match rifle.
    I burned through probably $65 in match ammo trying to find an answer. Maybe one doesn't exist.
    The groups were centered and tight except for the flyers. The flyers had no pattern to them. Up, down, left, right, and all the angles.
    Wind was as nonexistent as it gets here.
    This thing has me scratching my head. If I could get rid of that flyer, this would be a great rifle.

    By the way, the torque settings on the MTR were still right where I left them three days ago.
    I checked the other rifles after I got home. The Walnut stock was really close to where I left it and the laminated stock was down a bout 5 inch pounds from where I left it.
    Last edited by tazman; 06-16-2021 at 12:02 AM.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check