Non-target 22 LR in non-target rifles — flogging a dead horse?

[Bigslug]

Not flogging a dead horse, but maybe trying to sew silk purses out of sow's ears.

Match grade rimfire barrels and the ammo painstakingly crafted to be fired in them is kind of like selecting ultra-high octane aviation gas for the P-51 Mustang you know it's going to get poured into.

With 87-octane grade stuff and and the mass-market guns made to shoot it, you're basically trying different part and lot numbers and hoping the variables combine to give results like Eley Tenex out of an Anschutz 54. Sometimes it happens, but (A.) it's not the way to bet, and (B.) good luck on those results holding up long term across multiple lots of the same part number.

You CAN do very well by playing around with the entry level (AKA "club" quality) match rounds (note - they may not cycle semi autos). Wolf Match Target (rebranded SK Jagd) is astounding stuff. It's gone up since it's U.S. introduction 25 or so years ago, but still stings less than the true international-grade stuff.

Something else to consider - if you're looking for field performance on game, match ammo may not be your best friend anyway. It's of lower velocity and had more of a rainbow trajectory. Fine if you KNOW you're shooting at the ISU-regulation 50 meters, but not so much if you're guestimating range to a bunny's head. The faster round may be PRACTICALLY more accurate because of it's flatter trajectory and less time exposed to crosswinds.

[Krag 1901]

Shooting squirrel offhand is a lot different than bench resting an eight pound target gun too. my BL 22 and 582 Rem do every thing I need for an offhand 25-100 yard gun. Though I have to say that Rem Thunderbolts are trash!

[303Guy]

My Remington 512 with a nice scope shoots some nice groups with regular ammo, both subsonic and supersonic. However, there are always outlyers to some degree that spoil the groups. Some ammo shoots better than others. For off hand shooting it shoots fine - better than I can aim it. With target or semi-target ammo it does seem to shoot better though but regular ammo is quite satisfactory if one accepts the percentage of outlyers (which unfortunately makes it difficult spot my own errors).



This only 25m so not really all that great. That's a five shot group. It doesn't always do that though.

[NWPilgrim]

You are getting good accuracy with what you have. You can get a bit better:
- Add an optic. For close in like that’ll I like just a 1-4x or fixed 4x.

- Try some decent but not match grade ammo. I have tried several match grade ammo brands in my 10/22 and 15/22 with no noticeable change. BUT going from Remington or Winchester to CCI, Aguila or some Federal drastically improved, except the Mini-mags are so-so. Blazer is surprisingly good and one of the cheaper. I have heard but not tried yet that Fiocchi is likewise similarly accurate. Wolf Match, Norma, Eley etc were a waste on my guns.

- A barrel and trigger upgrade isn’t too much and can also have noticeable improvement.

But to get much smaller groups than these changes you need a better bolt action like a CZ, Tikka, Ruger (77/22 is very good) etc or other Europeans. For squirrels some guys prefer the .17 HMR for less drop out to 75 yds or more and seemingly better made ammo overall (more expensive too). The couple I have seen Savage and Ruger American were relatively inexpensive yet tack drivers.

[uscra112]

High velocity bullets are actually affected MORE by wind than subsonic. Counterintuitive, but true. The rate of deceleration due to aerodynamic drag turns out to be the controlling factor.

[uscra112]

Not to overdo it - (I've commented on this on three threads here recently) - but there are two inexpensive things you can do to improve results using commodity ammo in commodity rifles. One is weight-sorting. The other is "bumping" the bullets up to a uniform diameter of .2250" using a Paco Kelly or Waltz tool. About six years ago I cut groups from a box stock 10-22 in half using these two methods, starting with Thunderbolt ammunition. A caution, however: bumping only works for cheap ammo; it does nothing but spoil better grade target ammo.

The Waltz tool is considerably better, IMHO, but Neil seems to have "gone dark". A pretty good replica can be made using the Lee "expander" die body and a couple of simple lathe parts, at a cost under $40, not counting the price of the Lee die. I have a drawing to share.

Made a prototype tonight. Works great. Talked to Al Nelson at NOE Molds this afternoon. He is going to add it to his product line.

[725]

I think if you go to standard velocity ammo, you'll do better.

[Norske]

Every rimfire barrel is a law onto itself. Buy a 50 round box of every brand/"model" 22LR ammo you can find (CCI has a bunch of different 22LRs). Somewhere in a large selection you will find an accurate round, or at least find a velocity range yo0ur barrel likes better. Then it's a accuracy vs. budget.

[uscra112]

LOL! In today's world, scoring one box of ANYTHING is chancy, much less one box of everything.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I have been working with Ruger MK. III target pistol, Ruger 10/22 in Hogue stock with Nikon (Philippines) 4X, and circa 1950s Marlin 39. I am trying to improve my ability to hit within a one-inch circle — squirrel or rabbit's head. Much of my work to achieve the goal has been by futzing (technical term for spending a great deal of money before analyzing specifics of how to achieve intended goal) with firearms.

I am now at the stage where I request information from experienced 22 LR shooters. Having large quantities of standard Hi-speed 40-grain solids and 37??- grain hollow points to use, the range at which my one-inch circle ceases to be routine is about 35 yards. Since I have never owned a target rifle or shot any target ammunition, I'm beginning to think 35 yards is it unless I invest in different firearms and hugely more expensive ammunition.

My opinion and experience:

There are two kinds of accuracy. (1) Hunting accuracy (2) Target accuracy.
With an inch at 35 yds. you certainly have hunting accuracy.
For target accuracy you need target quality rifles and ammo.

For your purpose of hunting you're "good to go." Consistent head shots on squirrels at 100 yds. is possible but not very realistic.

DG

[OS OK]

THERE ARE MANY VARIABLES...that 'all' have to be addressed when trimming that last little bit off group size & consistently keeping'er under an inch.

I think it's an admirable endeavor...there is much to learn about this 'lowly .22lr.'
Keep us posted as to what you have been doing in this regard, 'what you have tried & the results' of your efforts, take pictures...they add so much to a technical thread like this one.

Like it's been said already regarding the ammo...
you can weigh-sort it with an accurate little jewelers scale...



you can make a handy lil-jig & rim sort by rim thickness and/or make one to measure the 'COAL/fdb' (Cartridge Over All Length/ (to the) Front Drive Band) to insure a more consistent chamber placement and headspacing...



or you can make a COAL/fdb sorting & go in and weight sort a particular length..



But one of the most significant things that make a positive difference with any mfgr's ammo is that chamber.
When you see land marks on an extracted round, your going to see a significant difference in how that round will group...with cheaper ammo-not so much...but definitely a difference.



After 70 years of thinking that center-fire is king & .22lr's were for training kids & popping cans...I've had a change of heart and quite the education from these boys here that are giving you such good advise.
Good advise won't get it unless you take the time to experiment, log your efforts & results..."get down in this Rabbit-Hole' and enjoy this 'lowly .22lr' for what you can learn and do with it in any rifle."
Speaking of the rifle...there's several checks & inexpensive mods you can do with that too...haha...this Rabbit Hole is deep my friend.

keep us posted . . . charlie

[uscra112]

It certainly is! Wait 'til you meet the guys who are pulling the bullets, dumping the powder, then breech-seating a bullet specially designed for that purpose in a single shot rifle, refilling the case with *gasp* BLACK powder, just for for target competition. They shoot some pretty good groups, too.

Good summary there, OS OK!

[OS OK]

It certainly is! Wait 'til you meet the guys who are pulling the bullets, dumping the powder, then breech-seating a bullet specially designed for that purpose in a single shot rifle, refilling the case with *gasp* BLACK powder, just for for target competition. They shoot some pretty good groups, too.

Good summary there, OS OK!

Thank you uscra112... Kind words are appreciated, I feel like I've just come through '.22lr - 101 class' this past six months with the two threads I have been running. You and quite a few others have been very generous with your hard earned knowledge.

Another thanks out to MostlyLeverGuns... for that mention of the book 'THE ART OF RIMFIRE ACCURACY'



... I just ordered a paperback copy from Amazon.
It is like one criminal said to another in a movie called ''HEAT" ... the one criminal ask the other how he finds out about all these details he was selling...he replied...
"The information is out there, all you have to do is let it in!"

[wv109323]

I have seen 2 magazine articles where exhaustive tasting of .22 rf has been conducted. Both tests were like 5 to 8,000 rounds through target rifles. Both articles showed the worst at 1 3/4" and the best at .3" @ 50 yards. The accuracy followed the price tag of the ammo generally.
Generally speaking ,CCI std. Velocity is a solid performer for the money. My experience shows that std. Velocity is all about the same. This is based on Ransom resting target .22 pistols.

[uscra112]

TARGET rifles. Aye, there's rub. (apologies to Shakespeare). This thread is about ammo for common "sporting" and/or "plinking" rifles.

[303Guy]

Well, for what it's worth, I am going down the 'turning a sporting rifle into a target rifle' rabbit hole myself. I think the trick is to realize the rifle ammo limitations and do what one can to improve those then strive to achieve what the rifle can do. I've fired twenty shot groups, then fifteen then ten and found that a percentage of shots form a group while the rest get scattered.




This sort of thing. This is with open sights so it's quite a challenge for me. Are those flyers or shooter error? That's the challenge.

I have the luxury of being able to try different brands and types of ammo which has been part of the fun.

[uscra112]

There are so many process characteristics in .22 ammo manufacturing that are inaccessible to us, given our modest financial means, that we'll never make even marginal target ammo out of commodity ammo like Blazer/Wildcat/Thunderbolt/AutoMatch et.al. But the things we can do will get rid of a lot of outliers. The rest we'll just have to live with. Fun trying, though. And definitely a learning experience that will stay with us.

If you let it, you will get an inkling of how high volume manufacturing is really managed. You'll start thinking about process control, not quality control. Whether it's ammo or automobiles, the concepts are the same. It can be a rewarding career, but as my old Dad once said "you'll never have cocktail party conversation".

[Drm50]

Do you see the difference in 10/22 barrels from 60s to ones made later? I’ve had a good bit of experience with them but not technical barrel measurement. I have one left from 60s and it shoots under 1” at 40yds. The others I had in small collection of them I bought as they came out in 60s.
They all shot under 1” at forty, including the Mannlicher. Certainly not target rifles but much better than what I have run across since. I end up with a lot of stock parts from putting them together for people. I have found that sometimes switching out stock barrels doesn’t work. I don’t know if it is tolerances from a different batch or maybe just tooling wearing out on a run. I was a cheer leader for Ruger and 10/22. Now I feel it’s just another 22 rifle.

[John Boy]

I was at the range this last Fall with a JM Marlin Ballard with a vernier rear, shooting my black powder reloads with Western 40gr cast bullets weighed within a small Bell Curve, 4.5gr Swiss Null-B with a velocity of 1230 FPS at 50 yards. Of the 20 shots for the target, 3 fliers and 17 holes in the center that tore the center completely out

[Bigslug]

there are so many process characteristics in .22 ammo manufacturing that are inaccessible to us, given our modest financial means, that we'll never make even marginal target ammo out of commodity ammo like blazer/wildcat/thunderbolt/automatch et.al. But the things we can do will get rid of a lot of outliers. The rest we'll just have to live with. Fun trying, though. And definitely a learning experience that will stay with us.

If you let it, you will get an inkling of how high volume manufacturing is really managed. You'll start thinking about process control, not quality control. Whether it's ammo or automobiles, the concepts are the same. It can be a rewarding career, but as my old dad once said "you'll never have cocktail party conversation".

There is massive truth here!

About 10 years ago, a group of guys from my department went to shoot in the smallbore matches of an international shooting event. Our snipers were using one of the lesser grades of Federal Gold Medal as a training aid - not a competition tool. When compared to the Eley and other prime grade stuff that most of the other players were using, it had two key attributes (1.) it was what we had, and (2.) it was paid for.

So over the course of the next couple months I sorted about 5,000 cartridges by rim thickness and weight to ensure that each of our competitors had about a brick's worth of ammo that within itself was as consistent as I could make it. They came back with a bunch of medals too, but you learn a few things:

1. Your time is worth something too. Eley and the like put the time in ahead of assembly so you don't have to slap band aids on someone else's assembly. And it's easier on your eyes, back, and sanity.

2. The sorting process is good, but can't be 100% foolproof. If that 2/10's of a grain separation is powder on one round, and bullet weight on the next, it's probably all for naught. The only way to catch that is pre-assembly of the round - - which is why Eley gets the big bucks.

3. Unless you've got a team coach or supportive sap like me doing it for you, you time is probably better spent getting in shape to spend 45 minutes slung up in position, dry-firing, reading wind flags, etc... with ammo that is cheaper but still good enough to give you good feedback, and spend the money on the good stuff for when it counts.