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Thread: Cannister and surplus powders?

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Cannister and surplus powders?

    Did the Title of this forum change to Factory and Surplus powders, or am I imagining things
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  2. #2
    Boolit Man DAVIDMAGNUM's Avatar
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    I must be inflicted with the same delusion about the name of this sub-forum. I wasn't going to say anything........

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Factory powder, it's all factory powder( even surplus and OEM), BUT a small portion of it for us hand loaders is sold as cannister grade powder.
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  4. #4
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    It's all factory powder and it's all "canister" powder. The difference is whether it is factory new sold as factory new or pulldown/unused powder not sold as factory new but maybe as "Surplus" or "Pulldown".
    "Things always get better once thought, time, and money are applied in the correct amounts at the correct time"
    - No_1 -

    "The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion."
    - Albert Camus -

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by No_1 View Post
    It's all factory powder and it's all "canister" powder. The difference is whether it is factory new sold as factory new or pulldown/unused powder not sold as factory new but maybe as "Surplus" or "Pulldown".
    No 1 that is not correct, the powders loaded into factory ammo and military ammo are in fact BULK/OEM powders and are loaded in ammo that loads are worked up on pressure test equipment( because the relative burn rate can be so different from lot to lot, but the lot may be couple ton of powder). Powders batches that fall into very specific burn rates, very small % of difference, are packaged as cannister grade powders and sold to reloaders. Type 6 FFL's can purchase BULK/OEM powders DIRECTLY from the Factory, primers too and they are labled not for sale tpo the general public.

    Hodgdon's "Glossary of Terms Relating to Powder" pg 526 #25

    "CANNISTER POWDER- Uniform standardized powders available to handloaders."

    Speer glossary: pg 454 #9

    CANNISTER POWDER: Since handloaders do not have a laboratory facilities needed to determine the loading characteristics of a powder, the powder manufacturers have developed a rigid set of specifications for each handloader powder they sell. Each lot of powder made to these specifications is termed "cannister" grade since it is usually packed in canisters.
    Commercial ammunition manufacturers do have laboratory facilities , and so can use bulk grades, which can vary enough from lot to lot to be dangerous to handloaders,
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  6. #6
    Boolit Master

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    Thank you, swheeler! Your explanation is what I have always read and understood. Essentially, that is exactly what many manuals, books and articles have pointed out. As well as many posters here have said much the same thing without realizing that they were pointing out the major difference. This sometimes gets muddied up when surplus powders are entered into the mix(not mixed powders).
    John
    W.TN

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master


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    John it used to always be refered as "cannister grade" powder, and always spelled with TWO N's. I guess I'm still stuck in the 60's, what next Cast Boolits Forum call HEADS, TIPS, POINTS FORUM I would like to hear what Felix has to say, but that can no longer happen, I sure miss him.


    edit from 2010
    Another name for a closly regulated burn speed gun powder, put in small cans, to be sold to the public, i.e., retail. ... felix
    Last edited by swheeler; 02-25-2021 at 06:00 PM. Reason: post from Felix Robbins
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  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master


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    I like Jeff Bartlet, smart man selling this powder in 8 pound jugs...

    This powder has not been released as a canister powder. Loads can
    be worked up using H-870 or AA-8700 data, less 10%. Burning rate seems to be
    similar to Hodgdon H1000 or Reloder 25.
    Charter Member #148

  9. #9
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    I sure aint no expert but ive bought surplus powder since the internet age started and when it got delivered it was in containers just like IMR uses.
    its all smokeless powder.
    back when this web site started and for all my life anyway, that is until about the last great shortage when everything got bought up, surplus powder was much easier to come by. some gun shops would have big cardboard or metal kegs and sell you a brown paper bag full. those days sadly are long gone, they disappeared along with the wooden barrels full of old foreign made military rifles for like $50 each.. boy how I miss the good ole days.
    whatever it is I think this section of the web site is about smokeless powder, the kind you can get from powder Vally, bass pro, Midsouth, ect from the big name brands or from guys like Jeff Bartlett that offer surplus and pull down powder and sometimes leftover lots of name brand powder from I have no idea where.

  10. #10
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    Maybe the heading should just be Chemical powder?

    The other night, I was watching the Original Star Trek TV, an episode called "Shore Leave". Sulu had found a S&W Revolver and was explaining it it Captain Kirk...

    Sulu says, "It fires lead pellets propelled by expanding gases from a chemical explosion."
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
    ― The Dalai Lama, Seattle Times, May 2001

  11. #11
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    You say I am incorrect but your statements support my statement even though I did not go into the detail of breaking down “Factory” powders to the level you did but since you are after a discussion.....

    I was attempting to simplify powder into 2 categories for SubForum titling purposes as there are really only 2 types of powders the average reloader deals with:

    “Factory” which is manufactured by the Powder Manufacturer (who is the OEM for the powder), supported by published industry standard testing/data and purchased in canisters form from the manufacturer by a licensed suppliers for resale.

    or

    “Surplus” which may be new or pull down, is typically not supported by industry standard data and usually purchased from component resellers such as Jeff.

    Quote Originally Posted by swheeler View Post
    No 1 that is not correct, the powders loaded into factory ammo and military ammo are in fact BULK/OEM powders and are loaded in ammo that loads are worked up on pressure test equipment( because the relative burn rate can be so different from lot to lot, but the lot may be couple ton of powder). Powders batches that fall into very specific burn rates, very small % of difference, are packaged as cannister grade powders and sold to reloaders. Type 6 FFL's can purchase BULK/OEM powders DIRECTLY from the Factory, primers too and they are labled not for sale tpo the general public.

    Hodgdon's "Glossary of Terms Relating to Powder" pg 526 #25

    "CANNISTER POWDER- Uniform standardized powders available to handloaders."

    Speer glossary: pg 454 #9

    CANNISTER POWDER: Since handloaders do not have a laboratory facilities needed to determine the loading characteristics of a powder, the powder manufacturers have developed a rigid set of specifications for each handloader powder they sell. Each lot of powder made to these specifications is termed "cannister" grade since it is usually packed in canisters.
    Commercial ammunition manufacturers do have laboratory facilities , and so can use bulk grades, which can vary enough from lot to lot to be dangerous to handloaders,
    "Things always get better once thought, time, and money are applied in the correct amounts at the correct time"
    - No_1 -

    "The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion."
    - Albert Camus -

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master


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    I think what we are seeing here is Google/Wiki definitions being applied to handloading.....
    What I posted above are quotes from Hodgdon and Speer, if anyone would know they should....
    Hodgdon's "Glossary of Terms Relating to Powder" pg 526 #25

    to handloaders,"CANNISTER POWDER- Uniform standardized powders available to handloaders."

    Speer glossary: pg 454 #9

    CANNISTER POWDER: Since handloaders do not have a laboratory facilities needed to determine the loading characteristics of a powder, the powder manufacturers have developed a rigid set of specifications for each handloader powder they sell. Each lot of powder made to these specifications is termed "cannister" grade since it is usually packed in canisters.
    Commercial ammunition manufacturers do have laboratory facilities , and so can use bulk grades, which can vary enough from lot to lot to be dangerous
    Charter Member #148

  13. #13
    Boolit Master

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    I don't think anyone will be injured by either post. Some will prefer one post over the other for whatever reason.
    John
    W.TN

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by alamogunr View Post
    I don't think anyone will be injured by either post. Some will prefer one post over the other for whatever reason.
    I think you are right John, I just DO NOT find "factory powder" in any reloading manual's glossary
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  15. #15
    Cast Boolits Owner


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    Is that what is listed in Google/Wiki, is it a jab or just your no answer answer to my reply because you refuse to accept my reasoning as to why I renamed the subforum.

    Quote Originally Posted by swheeler View Post
    I think what we are seeing here is Google/Wiki definitions being applied to handloading.....
    What I posted above are quotes from Hodgdon and Speer, if anyone would know they should....
    "Things always get better once thought, time, and money are applied in the correct amounts at the correct time"
    - No_1 -

    "The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion."
    - Albert Camus -

  16. #16
    Cast Boolits Owner


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    Why do you keep referencing Felix? What does he have to do with this conversation?

    Quote Originally Posted by swheeler View Post
    John it used to always be refered as "cannister grade" powder, and always spelled with TWO N's. I guess I'm still stuck in the 60's, what next Cast Boolits Forum call HEADS, TIPS, POINTS FORUM I would like to hear what Felix has to say, but that can no longer happen, I sure miss him.


    edit from 2010
    Another name for a closly regulated burn speed gun powder, put in small cans, to be sold to the public, i.e., retail. ... felix
    "Things always get better once thought, time, and money are applied in the correct amounts at the correct time"
    - No_1 -

    "The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion."
    - Albert Camus -

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Google/Wiki just defines canister as a container, think it actually said metal. I answered you the best way I could, I quoted two of the oldest authorities on reloading, Speer and Hodgdons, where I learned from plus others. I respected Felix's opinion on most everything he posted about reloading/shooting, and more times than not we agreed.
    Last edited by swheeler; 02-26-2021 at 01:55 PM. Reason: fix typo
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  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by swheeler View Post
    Did the Title of this forum change to Factory and Surplus powders, or am I imagining things
    You are right. Someone renamed the forum using a name that is not in common use, sort of like using heads, or leadheads, or some other nonsensical term that has to be explained to anyone that is used to using the industry standard terms.
    Spell check doesn't work in Chrome, so if something is spelled wrong, it's just a typo that I missed.

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