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Thread: 38 Long Colt Original Configuration with .375" Heeled Bullets

  1. #41
    Boolit Master

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    Thanks John. That sounds like a great rifle. My experience with heel bullet rifles has been in 32 and 44 cal. I've found them to be just as accurate as similar inside lube cartridges.

  2. #42
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by ndnchf View Post
    Regarding dip lubing. I've been experimenting with an old time factory heel bullet lube. These .44 heel bullets are dipped in the lube after loading. This lube was recounted in an interview with a retired ammunition factory worker in a 1943 issue of The American Rifleman. It is 1 part paraffin, 1 part mutton tallow, 1/2 part beeswax. It dries to a non-sticky coating, yet is soft enough to chamber without interference. So far, I'm very happy with its performance with both smokeless and black powder. The bore stays quite clean and I get a nice lube star at the muzzle.
    Where do you get the tallow?

  3. #43
    Boolit Master

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    I got it from Dixie Gun Works years ago. But just Google it. There are many online suppliers.

  4. #44
    Boolit Mold
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    Hello.....Am trying to hand load some 38 LC heeled based cartridges. I have good bullets and I have the Old West Bullet Mould's crimp die. I have adjusted the die to crimp where the heel of the bullet fits into the case, but I do not see any evidence of a crimp. Also, I can lightly tug on the bullet and pull it out of the case, after applying a crimp. I have the crimp die mounted into a Lee Hand press, but cannot see how that would make a diffeence. Am I doing something wrong or is this the way it is supposed to work? Thanks.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tar Heel View Post
    After investigating the installation and use of a 45 Colt cartridge conversion cylinder for a Cap & Ball revolver, I decided that the price of one did not justify getting one to make a half-baked 45 Colt revolver when, with just another one hundred dollars, I could purchase a 45 Colt revolver of the 1873 SAA variety. The economics of it simply put me off. The “38” conversion cylinders were always (and still are) marketed as being capable of handling 38 Special ammunition and to a point they are. It’s not the regular ammunition they can shoot accurately however but the Hollow-Base Wad Cutters that can be used. With the “38” conversion cylinder, the issue is that most folks will ignorantly purchase commercial 38 Special ammunition with .357” bullets and shoot them in a Cap & Ball revolver with a .375” groove-to-groove barrel diameter. Obviously the bullet will bounce its way down the barrel and come out the muzzle in some configuration other than aligned. If a “belly gun” is what you need, that’s what you have with this arrangement.

    Around 1870, the age of cartridge guns dawned and they were rapidly becoming the replacement to Cap & Ball revolvers. In 1872 Colt introduced their first true cartridge revolver, the 1872 Open Top, designed to fire cartridges from its inception. In 1873 of course, Colt introduced their 1873 SAA and the rest is history. Know however that from the mid 1870’s until 1890, it was definitely less expensive to have your Cap & Ball revolver “converted” to fire cartridges than purchasing a new cartridge revolver. Many gunsmiths cropped up to perform these conversion services and several styles of conversions were available to the consumer wishing to use the more convenient cartridges of the day.

    The owners of the converted 1860 Army Cap & Ball revolvers could easily use the new 45 Caliber cartridges since the groove-to-groove diameter of the Cap & Ball guns matched the bullet diameter of the newly introduced 45 Colt ammunition. Even though the 1860 Army was listed as a 44 caliber revolver, in actuality it had a 44 caliber bore (lands) with a 45 caliber groove diameter.

    The 1851 and 1861 Navy converted percussion revolvers with their 36 caliber bores and 38 caliber (.375”) grooves necessitated the manufacture of “38 Caliber” cartridges using heeled .375” bullets in cases. These were outside lubricated .375” bullets which fit the barrels nicely. The original cartridges were named 38 Long Colt and utilized the heeled .375” bullets. As the gun industry rapidly tooled up for the newer ammunition being developed and produced, guns were manufactured with smaller bores to utilize bullets of .357” and enclosed within the brass cases. This avoided the messy outside lubricated bullets and the associated issues with them.

    The 38 Long Colt was released initially with a .375” heeled bullet to be used in converted Cap & Ball revolvers but within a few short years the cartridge was modified to use a .357” hollow base bullet enclosed within the case which could be fired fairly accurately in the original Cap & Ball revolvers and the newly manufactured firearms using the now smaller (tighter) bores.

    Since the modern 38 caliber conversion cylinders have a true .375” chamber mouth and can fire 38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt and 38 Special HBWC ammunition, I decided to get the 38 caliber cylinder and shoot original 38 Long Colt ammunition. These cartridges would need to be made since no commercially available 38LC ammunition is available. Even the single source of 38 Short Colt which is Remington now uses .357” inside case bullets. I just don’t want my bullets wobbling down the bore.
    Fortunately I already cast 36 caliber (.375”) heeled bullets since Mark Hubbs of Eras Gone Bullet Molds contracted with Lee to produce a mold which is an exact replica of the 36 Colt Cartridge Works conical bullet for their 1851 and 1861 percussion revolvers. 38 Special brass can be trimmed to the correct length for either 38SC or 38LC ammunition. I trimmed the brass to 1.020” for 38LC rounds. It became obvious that a crimp on a heeled bullet was going to be difficult but, low and behold, a company called Old West Bullet Molds makes a heeled bullet crimp die for the 38 Colt family of cartridges. Looks like I had all the pieces needed to generate my original 38LC cartridges!

    The conversion cylinder arrived and I am one of the fortunate customers whose cylinder dropped right into my Pietta 1861 Navy revolver. Whew. I have read horror stories about this and frankly that was my biggest concern. I was not looking forward to working the action parts to make the cylinder work correctly in the revolver. I dodged the bullet there (pun intended). The crimp die arrived the same day as the Taylor’s conversion cylinder and so after dinner I headed to the loading bench to see how things would work. I trimmed a few cases and started.

    When SLIGHTLY flaring the case mouth to accept the heeled bullets, I used my newly acquired Lee die set for the 38SC/38LC cartridges. Unfortunately their new mouth flaring/charging die has a sharp, small, almost full diameter pilot and it just kept eating cases. I switched to my RCBS expander plug and we were off to the races. I will have to address this significant design issue with Lee at some point in the immediate future. I may just return the whole set for a refund since truthfully, every step for the 38LC except crimping can be done with a 38/357 die set. Since the 38LC cartridges with the Eras Gone 36 Navy heeled bullet fit in the cylinder, I have no desire or need to generate 38SC cartridges.

    After flaring the case mouths, I filled the cases with 20.5gr by weight of Graf & Sons FFFG black powder. I applied a little glue to the heel of the bullet and seated it to the base driving band. I then used the Old West Bullet Molds crimp tool to apply a crimp. It all worked just fine and my first 5 cartridges are ready to shoot! I’ll put some homemade Paul Matthews Formula #1 bullet lubricant on them, chamber them and off we go to see how they shoot.

    Making these cartridges is rather time consuming at this point since trimming 38 Special cases down takes some time. Once the trimming operation is complete and I have a hundred or so shells, that whole step is eliminated and the operation will be smoother and faster. The bullet nose is just about .0005” too long and is easily scraped off during cylinder rotation but that is rather annoying. I will have to trim the remainder of the cases that much shorter and adjust the crimp die accordingly.

    All in all this has been a great project so far and will continue to be one into the future. I just can’t wait to get these to the range and see how they shoot!

    Old West Bullet Molds
    https://oldwestbulletmoulds.com/

    Eras Gone Molds
    https://erasgonebullets.com

    Taylor’s & Company Firearms
    https://taylorsfirearms.com



    A completed original 38 Long Colt cartridge with a heeled .375" bullet for use in 36 caliber Cap & Ball revolvers converted for use of cartridges. Notice the bullet diameter is the same as the case diameter.
    Attachment 277557

    Top is a 38 Special cartridge with an enclosed inside lubricated .357" bullet. Bottom is a 38 Long Colt cartridge with an outside lubricated heeled .375" bullet for use in converted Cap & Ball revolvers.
    Attachment 277558


    Left is a Lyman 358311 158gr .357" 38 Special bullet. Right is a Eras Gone Molds 126gr Colt Cartridge Works heeled .380" bullet for use in unmodified Cap & Ball revolvers or used in 38 Long Colt cartridges in converted Cap & Ball revolvers.
    Attachment 277559

    The Taylor's & Company 38 caliber conversion cylinder for 36 caliber Cap & Ball revolvers with 38 Long Colt dummy cartridges inserted. Parent brass is 38 Special which has been trimmed to 1.020".
    Attachment 277562

    A small batch of authentic 38 Long Colt black powder cartridges with .375" heeled bullets.
    Attachment 277560

  5. #45
    Boolit Master AntiqueSledMan's Avatar
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    Hello Jason,

    Sounds like you don't have the die set low enough in the press, not getting a crimp.
    Remember, after lowering the die you will have to reset the height of the shell holder(so you use the full stroke of the press).
    So with the adjustable shell holder, you have two adjustments to make.
    With the Factory Crimp Die, you should be able to put a groove in the case & bullet (not saying to do so).

    AntiqueSledMan.
    Last edited by AntiqueSledMan; 07-01-2021 at 01:46 PM.

  6. #46
    Boolit Master
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    $ 200.00 for 50 cases rely takes the fun out of it. who can afford them prices? not me on social security.

  7. #47
    Boolit Buddy Ajohns's Avatar
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    Has anyone tried, lately, the heeled boolits in a Colt New Army or Navy revolver? I have an 1896 that I slugged the bore on mine a couple years ago, it measured .362. That be about .013 smaller than the heeled boolits of .375.
    All I've ever ran in it was 38 Special hbwc. And they work fine. But the cylinder bores on these revolver are also bored straight through. I would assume there's a jump in diameter, and then a swage down of the lead in this process. So, I bought some 357 maximum brass, trimmed about .100 off, they're the length of the cylinder. Seated those 148 hbwc's flush with 3 grs of Titegroup, they shot better. Much better.
    But as it goes, I'd like to try something more traditional also as you guys have. From what I've read here, there's a great bunch of info. I ordered a bunch of the supplies from Old West, just waiting for them.
    My next step is to try the heeled way, with whichever brass fills the cylinder the best. Long Colt or Special. Was just curious if anyone has done this lately in the old double action.
    Thanks.

  8. #48
    Boolit Grand Master

    Wayne Smith's Avatar
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    For a heeled boolit the length of the cartridge is the length of the boolit ahead of the heel and the amount of cartridge length to fill the chamber. To load a 200gr heeled boolit in my 41 Colt I had to trim the cases back to fit the loaded cartridge into the chamber.
    Wayne the Shrink

    There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!

  9. #49
    Boolit Buddy Ajohns's Avatar
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    Correct.
    I maybe should've said I was just curious as to the accuracy of that heeled setup in a bore .013 smaller than bullet diameter.

  10. #50
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by John in PA View Post
    I settled on a 1.000" case length. This is based on the length of the bullet bearing surface against a chamber cast that I made. I'm shooting in a Number 1 Rolling Block, marked "38", and measures out at 38 Long CF (RF had the same dimensions, I believe) It has a sliding Remington vernier tang sight, with a rocky mountain rear, and a Beach's front. I haven't shot on paper, just metal targets so far. I'd really like to get a good, well-obturating/sealing smokeless load figured out. I'm intrigued by the .358" OWHB bullet referenced above. I know the practice was common for the ammunition manufacturers and supposedly accuracy was "minute of torso" in revolvers, but I'm wondering if the under-bore front half of the bullet would ride the lands nicely, with the base blowing out enough for a bore-seal, but no so much that it would shuttlecock at the muzzle, given the low pressure loads I'm using? AT that rate, I could nearly use .357 Mag cases, though I'd have to check length against the chamber cast. The Devil's always in the details...
    John - I'm following up from a few months back.

    I now have a #2 rolling block in .38 rimfire. I swapped in a centerfire block and been chronographing a variety of loads using the OW 150gr heel bullet. The bore of this rifle is not perfect. There is a fair bit of pitting ahead of the chamber, but its pretty good further down with the rifling still distinct.

    A fellow shooter sent me some Accurate 38-160H bullets to try. My chamber must be shorter than yours. My cases are currently .875" long. I'll trim some cases back to .800" to chamber with this bullet. With the less than stellar bore, I'm staying with clean burning powders - smokeless or BH209. Do you have any load suggestions? Thanks, Steve
    Last edited by ndnchf; 10-30-2021 at 08:35 AM.

  11. #51
    Boolit Master

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    Just finished refreshing an original Winchester .38 rimfire cartridge.

    Bullet pulled - weight 143.4gr, .370" diameter.
    Powder - 3F, 21.7gr
    Case cleaned out and polished.
    Case rim reprimed with Prime-All.
    Original powder drop tubed back in.
    Original bullet lightly cleaned, reinstalled and crimped.

    I've lately been playing with a .38 rimfire #2 Remington rolling block using a centerfire block and cut down .38 Special brass. But, like other old rimfires I've done, I want to test fire an original cartridge over the chronograph. Since the original priming compound is most likely long dead, I like to refresh them with new priming compound and bullet lube.

    I hope to get to the range and chronograph it this week.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Before_after 38 rimfire.jpg  

  12. #52
    Boolit Master

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    I went to the range today and tested the refreshed, original .38 rimfire cartridge. It didn't go quite as smoothly as I hoped But that's not completely unexpected when working with long obsolete rifles and ammunition. Nevertheless, it was great fun and I was able to gather data.

    https://youtu.be/A8T1q0mSDHE

  13. #53
    Boolit Master
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    Great video! I bet that was a treat to shoot that original cartridge.

  14. #54
    Boolit Grand Master bedbugbilly's Avatar
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    Great video - really enjoyed watching it and seeing the results!

  15. #55
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by bedbugbilly View Post
    Great video - really enjoyed watching it and seeing the results!
    Thanks. There many other antique firearms related videos on my channel.

    https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL...tvKtcAr3VWEUrT

  16. #56
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by ndnchf View Post
    John - I'm following up from a few months back.

    I now have a #2 rolling block in .38 rimfire. I swapped in a centerfire block and been chronographing a variety of loads using the OW 150gr heel bullet. The bore of this rifle is not perfect. There is a fair bit of pitting ahead of the chamber, but its pretty good further down with the rifling still distinct.

    A fellow shooter sent me some Accurate 38-160H bullets to try. My chamber must be shorter than yours. My cases are currently .875" long. I'll trim some cases back to .800" to chamber with this bullet. With the less than stellar bore, I'm staying with clean burning powders - smokeless or BH209. Do you have any load suggestions? Thanks, Steve
    Sorry, Steve, didn't catch this till now. I haven't done any more load development since my previous posts. I did purchase some of the OW hollow base 158 gr cast just to tinker with, but have been caught up in a million other things since. I'll try to report back if I get the ".38 pea-shooter" out again.
    John Wells in PA

    Peabody's and Peabody-Martini's wanted
    Also shoot a 10-PDR Parrott Rifle in competition

  17. #57
    Boolit Master

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    Ok, thanks. I'll keep my eye out for updates.

  18. #58
    Boolit Master AntiqueSledMan's Avatar
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    Hey Guys,

    I will add, I've been shooting Black MZ in my Cartridge Conversion Revolvers (.44 Colt & .45 Colt).
    No need to lubricate the bullets. Makes loading a heel based projectile a lot easier, still need to crimp.
    I still have not loaded a .38 LC, but it's still in the works. Will be my next project.

    AntiqueSledMan.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check