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Thread: Machinest help

  1. #1
    Boolit Master



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    Machinest help

    I finally got all my equipment gathered up from all the major disasters in my house and am finally attempting my hand at 30 cal copper tubing jackets. What I'm having trouble with is set up. I have 2 1' bars of 3/4" stock to work with. I am on the short end of the stick with the setup process.Any machinest that would care to PM me with a tutorial that could get me started in the right direction would be fantastic.
    Regards ,
    Bill

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Knowing what equipment you have, what the steel bars are, and other info would help a lot. Steel is a very broad term or description.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by country gent View Post
    Knowing what equipment you have, what the steel bars are, and other info would help a lot. Steel is a very broad term or description.
    I kind of left it very broad in the beginning so as not to confuse any bad thoughts of my own.
    Logan 200 lathe (over 70 years old)
    4 jaw chuck
    ER 40 and 3/4" collet
    4140 PR hard
    SASswaging instructions

    My questions:
    Can an ER 40 collet hold 12" bar with out a lot of harmonics, or does the bar need a tail spindle for support. or
    Do I just chuck up a 2" piece of bar to the collet , square it , then drill the 1/8 hole all the way through and proceed with the other drilling and lapping to the tubing size, then thread the press end and flip the die and make the final cleaning?

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master

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    If you have the extra out side material it gets a lot easier. I would center it up in the 4 jaw, If you have a piece of nylon delron brass or aluminum You might turn a sleeve to fit the stock snug and the spindle bore with in a couple thousandths, since ti wont stick thru for a spider on the back end. set up with end close to chuck 1" or so. Fce to square clean surface then center drill. Drill thru using the peck drill technique. .060-.090 clear chips and repeat to depth. Use plenty of coolant or oil. Turn a short end on outside true about 1/2" is plenty. It just needs to clean up. Re center the hole to true. Reverse in chuck and indicate hole true, and cut center. Mount between centers and clean up od true to hole. Use a new drill from a quality maker clevland morse osg. If you have to sharpen it use a gauge to keep true or better a drill sharpener. The reasons a drill walks are uneven cutting angles one side 118 the other 120. un even cutting lengths ie drill point off center. chips over loading the drill and creating uneven pressure.

    You can negate the ring by cutting to just over length and cleaning it up after.

    Another part of set up is making sure the tail stock is straight and centered. mount a known straight mandrel between centers and indicate it in to o o at each end adjusting the tail stock Then mount the drill chuck with a pin in it and an indicator in the head stock and indicate pin in here only real variation should be up and down and you will need to shim for it.

    Then its a matter of getting stock running true and drilling. 4140 pre hard is tough at around 40 rc but the good HSS cobalt drill will be around 60 rc. Pn a manual machine with hand applied oil I would run around 800 rpm to start and go from there. remember to peck breaking chip and clearing every .060-.090.

    I would leave .008 - .010 in the bore then final turn and thread lead a min thread dia end for indicating about 1/4 - 3/8" long.

    Another trick is start with a very short 1/8" drill and go longer as needed. the shorter drills are stiffer and stay straight better. the deeper the hole gets the better the support. A larger dia drill will also be stiffer and cut straighter if you can go to 3/16 it might make it easier , stiffer drill, easier to get coolant in, easier to clear chips.

    On my big lathe 14 X 40 I would cut a length 1" longer than required. center in the 4 jaw with room to thread and undercut sticking out . center in 4 jaw ( its only a couple min job to .001). Face center and drill. When in about an inch I would switch the coolant over to a fine nozzle into the hole.peck drilling the hole way to depth + .125. Turn around in chuck and indicate on thread relief cut finish top and cut to length.

    Buy a cheap small oil can and modify with a long tube on the end .090 id by .060 ID 3" long for oil coolant. this you can push in to bottom of hole and use il to make sure chip and swarf are out.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master



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    Thanks,for some reason I never thought about the Delcron or alum. shim. I was blind sided by the spider.

    In case I need to make the hole blind with a 45° bottom, what is the best way to bore the base ?
    Last edited by just bill; 02-13-2021 at 08:36 AM.

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy Faret's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by just bill View Post
    Thanks,for some reason I never thought about the Delcron or alum. shim. I was blind sided by the spider.

    In case I need to make the hole blind with a 45° bottom, what is the best way to bore the base ?
    Custom reamer would be the best.

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Make a simple drill angle gauge from a piece of flat stock and sharpen a drill bit to it. The gauge will maintain angle and center. boring in a small deep hole like this is very tricky due to the bars lack of rigidity and being able to see what your doing.

    Or a D reamer could be made up to do this.

  8. #8
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    I have never made case forming dies, but have made a lot of sizing dies. All the the case forming dies I have read about were round and made to fit a reloading or swaging press, so threaded round stock and top and/or bottom punches. Your lathe would easily work with that. I make a lot of sizing dies with threaded rod but have also turned oversize stock and cut the threads. I made a threaded collet so that I can chuck a 3” piece of 7/8x14 threaded rod and not damage the threads.

    Corbin has several pages about making jackets from copper strip and tubing: http://www.corbins.com/jmk-2-h.htm and http://www.corbins.com/tubing.htm. There are other pages also.
    Last edited by garandsrus; 02-13-2021 at 04:58 PM.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master



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    I did a lot or research on the copper tubing dies, I guess 4 years ago, even then the jacket forming die caused questions. Someone actually said that the 45° really wasn't necessary, they found success with a drilled hole. In his sticky thread Lead Chucker said he drilled the die undersized, lapped it to fit the tubing, and bored a 45° base. The secret is" how did he bore it??????". If this wasn't a one time affair I would invest in a carbide ream, but its going to be an interesting. I thought about angle cutting the tip of a drill with a sharpening tool, however most of the drill bits I have may not hold an edge. I'm going to try the real colbalt drill, and see how it works, but I think the hardened 4120 will eat a regular drill bit if not pulverized it and have to start over.

  10. #10
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    Did you read the Corbin pages? He even includes pictures to see the internals of the die.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by just bill View Post
    I kind of left it very broad in the beginning so as not to confuse any bad thoughts of my own.
    Logan 200 lathe (over 70 years old)
    4 jaw chuck
    ER 40 and 3/4" collet
    4140 PR hard
    SASswaging instructions

    My questions:
    Can an ER 40 collet hold 12" bar with out a lot of harmonics, or does the bar need a tail spindle for support. or
    Do I just chuck up a 2" piece of bar to the collet , square it , then drill the 1/8 hole all the way through and proceed with the other drilling and lapping to the tubing size, then thread the press end and flip the die and make the final cleaning?
    Unless you're really good at threading, something I doubt because of the other questions you asked, I'd thread the piece first. Not snarking on you, BTW. I'm an amateur machinist, too. I have just started my 9th remake of a required project for my class that I messed up that last threaded section on, after hours of work. My part has to be threaded last because of the design. Two different cylindrical features, all the corners chamfered, and runout grooves cut before threading both ends. Yours can be threaded first, so that you don't mess the threading up AFTER you've done all the really important work.

    Bill

  12. #12
    Boolit Master



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    ", If you have a piece of nylon delron brass or aluminum You might turn a sleeve to fit the stock snug and the spindle bore with in a couple thousandths, since ti wont stick thru for a spider on the back end"

    My spindle ID is only 1/32" larger than the bar stock, so is it that critical that the 4 jaw be used instead of the collet ?

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by just bill View Post
    ", If you have a piece of nylon delron brass or aluminum You might turn a sleeve to fit the stock snug and the spindle bore with in a couple thousandths, since ti wont stick thru for a spider on the back end"

    My spindle ID is only 1/32" larger than the bar stock, so is it that critical that the 4 jaw be used instead of the collet ?
    How much runout do you have if you use the collet versus how close can you adjust to zero runout in the 4-jaw chuck? Do you have a dial test indicator that will indicate in .0001" or is .0005" or .001" as close as you can get? You're stuck with the runout of the collet, whatever it may be. I've got some Chinese ER32 collets that claim to be accurate to .0006", but I've not gotten to test them yet. Some of the US collets are supposed to be better than that, but they're a lot more expensive. I'm going to have to buy a new DTI before I can do any more testing. If I'm patient enough, and have a good DTI, I can dial it in to .0001". Be careful, if you drop them, it does them no good at all!

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master

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    If the 45* that needs to be cut is on the mouth f the die then boring it with a small short boring bar is the way to go. If its leade in angle I would cut it down to 10* and make it longer.

    Good HSS 10% cobalt tools will cut the pre hard well. carbide will do better but at more cost.

    Use a piece of 1/8" X 1 1/2" cold roll 4"- 6" long. coat with blue lay out a 45* angle with a line 3/4" from side. cut out and file in to correct. a scale can be used to measure center or a scale engraved along the 45* edge. This is used like a center gauge or fishtail when grinding a threading tool.When you say 45* angle do you mean included or on a side?

    Most counter sinks are 82* included or 41* on a side. center drills are usually 60* included or 30* on a side.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master



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    I tried to check the run out of my collet holder, think it was around .002, I don't know what it might be with a collet mounted in it, I never really trued the holder to the lathe spindle.

  16. #16
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by just bill View Post
    I tried to check the run out of my collet holder, think it was around .002, I don't know what it might be with a collet mounted in it, I never really trued the holder to the lathe spindle.
    If you are cutting the part in 1 operation complete then parting it off. The runout doesn’t matter because everything you cut will be true.

    One thing to remember is TIR and concentricity are different things. Whatever you indicate your runout to be. Your concentricity is only off my half that amount.

    Collet chucks are quick and easy but not known to be super accurate.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  17. #17
    Boolit Master


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    Depending upon the size of the hole that you are making, there are end mills with an angle on the end of 90 and 45 degrees maybe more.
    This could be used to cut the internal angle .

  18. #18
    Boolit Bub
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    As I work with more of the details of shooting, and especially swaging, it has become obvious that I want to develop some skills with my lathe.

    Following up on Just Bill's request, are there any tutorials for a brand new metal worker?

  19. #19
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    There are several machinists who regularly post "how to" videos on Youtube. They've been a great help to me while I'm learning to use my Grizzly Mini-lathe, and they've taken some of the mystery out of it.

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
    After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs.

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy

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    School trained machinist here. Started 11 years ago. Initially tried self-learning via You-tube videos and reading. Finally took a night class (one semester) at the community college and saw the tip of the iceberg so to speak. Wound up taking 5 more classes part time, then went back to school full time.
    My advice: Sign up for part time/night classes at your local community college. Very cheap and you will learn a ton. Second, find a mentor. Sign up for one of the home shop machinist forms online. And look for local members.
    If anyone is in the Dane County area of Wisconsin. Pm me and I'll be glad to help you out.

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