Thompson center Contender following

[BobT]

Dang! Now I want a 357 Herrett.

I wanted one for a long time before I found the right deal on it. I give Steve Herrett and Bob Milek much of the credit for my handgun hunting and shooting interests. I thought that a pair of early frames with matching 10" barrels and Herrett grips would be a fitting tribute to Mr. Herrett and for Mr. Milek I have a clone of his Trapper Gun XP100 in 6mm-.223. There were other influences along the way for me but these 2 gentlemen were by far the biggest.

If you do get either Herrett I highly recommend this fellows cut off jig for brass forming, it fits the Harbor Freight mini chop saw

https://www.etsy.com/shop/dangerleob...ics/?etsrc=sdt

[racepres]

I just got my first .45 Winchester Magnum barrel the other day, it came on a frame I wanted or I probably would never have acquired one. I really need to try it I guess. It came with a 50 round box of ammo so I might as well shoot those up anyway.

I wouldn't dream of getting rid of my 45 Win Mag.. Runs with the 44 Mag accross the board, which is Nice. But, With 45 ACP, It is Phenomenally accurate. Best with 200 gr CSWC, and AA#7... Been watching the Extractor for bending from holding the rim...None, in many Hundreds of rounds (my eldest just cant put it down) the Primer indentation has Not Changed one bit, and Never a FTF.

[Firesubie]

I wanted one for a long time before I found the right deal on it. I give Steve Herrett and Bob Milek much of the credit for my handgun hunting and shooting interests. I thought that a pair of early frames with matching 10" barrels and Herrett grips would be a fitting tribute to Mr. Herrett and for Mr. Milek I have a clone of his Trapper Gun XP100 in 6mm-.223. There were other influences along the way for me but these 2 gentlemen were by far the biggest.

If you do get either Herrett I highly recommend this fellows cut off jig for brass forming, it fits the Harbor Freight mini chop saw

https://www.etsy.com/shop/dangerleob...ics/?etsrc=sdt

Thanks for the link! I just bought one for 357 Herrett. I guess that means that I am obligated to get a barrel and dies now. I mean, that is the rule, right?

[P Flados]

When I got my first Contender over 40 years ago, my available 35 cal options were 357 magnum, 35 Herrett and 35 Rem. The 35 Herrett was considered to be “the choice” for a 10” gun if you wanted more than the magnum. It was known to be mean at full power, but the performance was impressive.

Now we have more options. We also have tools that can determine which choices make more sense. I did a comprehensive evaluation that shows that there are better Contender options than the 35 Herrett when it comes to a 10” barrel.

Frame stretch on the Contender can occur when the breech thrust is too high. With 357 mag, or 223 based cartridges, you will start stretching primer pockets on your brass before you damage your gun. This is not true with larger diameter cartridges.

A detailed thrust analysis is complex but I will simplify my effort by using a consistent assumed case wall thickness. A first pass Quickload evaluation with default parameters showed the 35 Remington to have the highest estimated breech thrust, just less than 4800 lb. Using 4800 lb thrust, the allowed chamber pressure was backed out for all calibers. This pressure was then used to evaluate velocities. Note that I do not guarantee that this level of thrust is acceptable and do not recommend any load used in this evaluation. The entire exercise is just to compare cartridge choices on a level basis.

Recoil and muzzle blast are also concerns for these options. Both are minimized with reduced muzzle pressures and blast is reduced with higher percent burn values. The top choice for least recoil and blast is 360 DW. This reduction comes at some loss of velocity, but I consider this to be a reasonable tradeoff. The rest of the choices all deliver essentially the same performance for velocity but are ranked best to worst for recoil and muzzle blast.

						
Bullet             : .358, 180, Speer FP 2435						
Barrel Length      : 10.0 inch = 254.0 mm						
						
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested						
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand						
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet						
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.						
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !						
						
Cartridge: .360 Dan Wesson	Base Diameter (in):	0.379	Wall (in)	0.02	Thrust (lb):	4800
						
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time						
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms						
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------						
Norma R123                          99.0     16.0     1.04    1754   100.0    53180    5006   0.702  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!						 
Ramshot Enforcer                   100.1     16.5     1.07    1727    98.9    53180    5296   0.695  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!						 
Alliant 2400                       101.1     15.5     1.00    1724    98.3    53180    5320   0.695  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

						
Cartridge: .357 Maximum 	Base Diameter (in):	0.379	Wall (in)	0.02	Thrust (lb):	4800
						
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time						
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms						
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------						
Winchester 296                      97.7     23.4     1.52    1933    95.4    53180    8534   0.665  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!						 
Hodgdon Lil'Gun                     98.9     23.0     1.49    1931   100.0    53180    7844   0.660  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!						 
Hodgdon H110                        98.2     23.6     1.53    1895    97.5    53180    7930   0.669  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!						 
						
						
Cartridge:   .350 Legend 	Base Diameter (in):	0.39	Wall (in)	0.02	Thrust (lb):	4800
						
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time						
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms						
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------						
Winchester 296                      87.3     27.2     1.76    1986    96.9    49890   10533   0.676  ! Near Maximum !						 
Hodgdon Lil'Gun                     88.0     26.5     1.72    1969   100.0    49890    9496   0.676  ! Near Maximum !						 
Hodgdon H110                        88.1     27.4     1.78    1947    98.6    49890    9755   0.679  ! Near Maximum !

						
Cartridge: .357 Herrett 	Base Diameter (in):	0.422	Wall (in)	0.020	Thrust (lb):	4800
						
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time						
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms						
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------						
Norma 200 *C                       101.9     36.0     2.34    1962    91.2    41882   12475   0.732  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!						 
Vihtavuori N120 *C                 101.0     33.3     2.16    1948    96.8    41882   11467   0.712  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!						 
Alliant Reloder TS 11 *C *T         98.9     34.4     2.23    1940    91.8    41882   11579   0.708  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!						 
						
						
Cartridge:    .35 Remington	Base Diameter (in):	0.458	Wall (in)	0.02	Thrust (lb):	4800
						
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time						
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms						
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------						
Alliant AR-Comp *C *T              101.9     42.8     2.77    1945    86.6    34978   14163   0.753  ! Near Maximum !						 
Alliant Reloder-10x *C              95.2     39.0     2.53    1921    86.8    34978   13378   0.770  ! Near Maximum !						 
Norma 200 *C                        92.0     39.0     2.53    1915    88.2    34978   13495   0.790  ! Near Maximum !

[Firesubie]

That's some interesting data. I definitely don't want to damage my frame. What is a safe thrust for the 1st generation frames to prevent frame stretch? I value accuracy over velocity but I still want the best terminal performance which seems to favor higher velocities.

[BobT]

I wouldn't dream of getting rid of my 45 Win Mag.. Runs with the 44 Mag accross the board, which is Nice. But, With 45 ACP, It is Phenomenally accurate. Best with 200 gr CSWC, and AA#7... Been watching the Extractor for bending from holding the rim...None, in many Hundreds of rounds (my eldest just cant put it down) the Primer indentation has Not Changed one bit, and Never a FTF.

I'll have to give the .45ACP a try, I love my 1911s!

Thanks for the link! I just bought one for 357 Herrett. I guess that means that I am obligated to get a barrel and dies now. I mean, that is the rule, right?

You may as well go ahead and get the .30 Herrett also.

[P Flados]

That's some interesting data. I definitely don't want to damage my frame. What is a safe thrust for the 1st generation frames to prevent frame stretch? I value accuracy over velocity but I still want the best terminal performance which seems to favor higher velocities.

Back when TC stood behind their guns, lots of people pushed 30-30 based rounds pretty hard and many ended up getting sent back to the factory. This is a big part of why TC came out with the G2 with those raised regions that stick out on each side of the frame.

I did not know anything about "frame stretch" for the first couple of decades that I loaded the 30 Herrett.

The biggest problem is that there is no simple & easy "rule" that is sure to prevent you from stretching a contender if you try to rely on "working up" loads based only on the results you see.

The best advice I have for the typical reloader is to find pressure tested data and use exactly the same bullet, powder, charge and COAL. You should be in pretty good shape. Double checking results with a chrono is a good idea if you want to push it all the way to the max listed charge.

An above average reloader can probably use Quickload in combination with a chrono to take pressure tested data and come up with any needed powder charge adjustments to deal with bullet substitutions where both bullets are pretty similar. Some amount of "back off just a little from max" is called for.

A really sharp reloader can probably safely work up loads with a just a chrono and enough reference data for similar pressure tested loads.

For me and my 30 Herretts (10" & 14") and 30-30 (14"), I ended up assembling all the pressure tested load data I could find (not much 30 Herrett to find), using Quickload and went pretty hard core with the "back off just a little from max" mentality. My goal was IHMSA shooting so any load worked up needed to be suitable for high volume usage.

However, in truth I also just decided to "avoid the issue" more than anything else. I bought 7 TCU barrels to use in lieu of my 30 Herretts.

For the same reason, if someone wants a 30 cal, and is willing to "buy new" I would recommend a 300 BO barrel over the 30 Herrett.

And just for comparison, when I run the 44 mag through my spreadsheet for estimated thrust it comes out a little higher than the 35 Remington.

[BobT]

When I got my first Contender over 40 years ago, my available 35 cal options were 357 magnum, 35 Herrett and 35 Rem. The 35 Herrett was considered to be “the choice” for a 10” gun if you wanted more than the magnum. It was known to be mean at full power, but the performance was impressive.

Now we have more options. We also have tools that can determine which choices make more sense. I did a comprehensive evaluation that shows that there are better Contender options than the 35 Herrett when it comes to a 10” barrel.

Frame stretch on the Contender can occur when the breech thrust is too high. With 357 mag, or 223 based cartridges, you will start stretching primer pockets on your brass before you damage your gun. This is not true with larger diameter cartridges.
[/code]

Frame stretch is a very real concern with the Contender but it can be mitigated by following established loading procedures.
Don Bower and J.D. Jones probably stretched more frames between them than everyone else combined but they came up with some impressive cartridges. Any firearm can be ruined by poor reloading practices and the Contender is certainly no exception. If higher performance is desired there are some trade offs but it doesn't mean you can't use any of these cartridges in the Contender, it simply requires some attention to detail.

I have been shooting and hunting with Contenders since 1979 and have fired many thousands of rounds of mostly handloaded ammunition from the .22 Squirrel up to the .45/70. I have yet to stretch a frame nor as far as I know do I personally know anyone who has. I consider it a risk / reward situation, the .38 Special would virtually eliminate any risk but what fun would that be. I enjoy shooting my pistols and shoot them a lot but I also want to do things besides punching holes in paper at 50 yards, I'll guarantee that if you like to shoot, the first time you bang a steel plater over 500 yards away with a break open pistol will put a big smile on your face! Muzzle blast and recoil are trade offs for performance. Earlier this week I shot a large male coyote at a lasered 208 yards with my 7-30 Waters, he was stalking a couple of mature whitetail does. I might not have taken that shot with a lessor cartridge but even from a makeshift rest I was pretty confident in the Waters.

[racepres]

Frame stretch is a very real concern with the Contender but it can be mitigated by following established loading procedures.
Don Bower and J.D. Jones probably stretched more frames between them than everyone else combined but they came up with some impressive cartridges. Any firearm can be ruined by poor reloading practices and the Contender is certainly no exception. If higher performance is desired there are some trade offs but it doesn't mean you can't use any of these cartridges in the Contender, it simply requires some attention to detail.

I have been shooting and hunting with Contenders since 1979 and have fired many thousands of rounds of mostly handloaded ammunition from the .22 Squirrel up to the .45/70. I have yet to stretch a frame nor as far as I know do I personally know anyone who has. I consider it a risk / reward situation, the .38 Special would virtually eliminate any risk but what fun would that be. I enjoy shooting my pistols and shoot them a lot but I also want to do things besides punching holes in paper at 50 yards, I'll guarantee that if you like to shoot, the first time you bang a steel plater over 500 yards away with a break open pistol will put a big smile on your face! Muzzle blast and recoil are trade offs for performance. Earlier this week I shot a large male coyote at a lasered 208 yards with my 7-30 Waters, he was stalking a couple of mature whitetail does. I might not have taken that shot with a lessor cartridge but even from a makeshift rest I was pretty confident in the Waters.

My Situation as well..I try very hard to run Published Loads..as I do Not believe the Contender has had a Handful of "factory" loads.
Plus, I always Chrono said Published loads. Knowing there is No Free Velocity...Load Accordingly. Luckily, If I need more, I have a Couple Longer Guns!!!

[FergusonTO35]

I think some states (Missouri?) allow centerfire handguns during bow season or have special extended seasons for handgun hunting. That would certainly be appealing, especially if you personally had the ability to shoot high pressure rifle cartridges from a handgun. I draw the line at .357 for handgun power level so a Contender wouldn't do me any good. The cost of Contender barrels just keeps going up too.

[BobT]

I think some states (Missouri?) allow centerfire handguns during bow season or have special extended seasons for handgun hunting. That would certainly be appealing, especially if you personally had the ability to shoot high pressure rifle cartridges from a handgun. I draw the line at .357 for handgun power level so a Contender wouldn't do me any good. The cost of Contender barrels just keeps going up too.

Missouri does offer handgun hunting during our alternative season. I spent yesterday, as I have most of the season, hunting with my 7-30 Waters MGM barreled Contender. When my opportunity finally came at last light, the deer cleared intervening brush and I ranged it at 188 yards. The range was within my comfort zone under normal circumstances but I was cold and shaking too hard to be sure of my shot so I opted to use the last 10 minutes of legal shooting light to try to close the distance, it didn't work! Today is the last day of our season but my last hunting day was yesterday so another few days of archery season and it's over for the year.

There are many cartridge choices in the Contender less powerful than the .357 magnum although I'm not sure why you would want to limit yourself unless recoil is a concern. Yes the cost of barrels keeps going up but so does the cost of everything else. You should give one a try, you might be pleasantly surprised!

[FergusonTO35]

Sounds great! If that came to Kentucky I would give it serious consideration. Come to think of it, if Rossi made the Brawler in .45 Colt only with real sights I would buy one just 'cause.