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Thread: Reloading Primers using Prime-All Mixture (Testing Results)

  1. #41
    Boolit Master ACC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MUSTANG View Post
    This thread will focus on rebuilding primers using the Prime-All mixture for reloading expended Small Rifle primers. The BOM (Bill of Materials) I use for accomplishing this follows. An Internet Link is provided with each as a potential source/example of each item needed.

    BOM:

    • (1) Prime-All Repriming Compound
    https://sharpshooter-22lr-reloader.m...iming-compound

    • (1) Harbor Freight Plastic Funnel Tray.
    https://www.harborfreight.com/easy-s...ray-37081.html

    • (2) Small Glass Sample Jars with lids. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...pd_gw_unk&th=1

    • Plastic Round Top Swizel Stick. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    • (1) Glass Shot Glass.
    https://www.amazon.com/Thirsty-Rhino...2293745&sr=8-5

    • (1) set Bamboo Chop Sticks, size to fit & pack primers.
    https://www.amazon.com/Set-200-Chops...8-6acff948fa5a


    • (1) set Stainless Steel Dental Pics. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    • Stainless Steel Forceps.
    https://www.amazon.com/Fishing-Strai...2294539&sr=8-3

    • (1) Hand held Hole Punch; 1/8” Hole (for Small Rifle and Small Pistol foil paper disks). https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    • (1) Cast Iron Anvil or Small Section Railroad Rail.
    https://www.harborfreight.com/15-lb-...vil-69425.html

    • (1) 1/8 inch Punch to remove dimple from Primer Cup. https://www.harborfreight.com/8-piec...set-93424.html

    • (1) Hammer (your choice).
    https://www.harborfreight.com/16-oz-...mer-66862.html

    • (1) 4” drill press vice.
    https://www.harborfreight.com/4-inch...ise-30999.html

    • (1) 3” or 4” C-Clamp (My current choice for seating anvils into Primer Cups). https://www.harborfreight.com/3-inch...sugg_q=c+clamp

    • (1) Magnifying Glass, 10X.
    https://www.amazon.com/Magnifying-Ma...roducts&sr=1-4

    • Shellac 0.5 Ounce can.
    https://www.acehardware.com/departme.../lacquer/11307

    • 91% Alcohol.
    https://www.amazon.com/Members-Mark-...s%2C286&sr=8-6


    • Paper for Primer Foil. (My current choice is Cash Register Receipt Paper from ACE Purchase).

    The following Videos provide examples on reloading expended Primers that I used as reference before I began to do experiments myself and develop techniques and data:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InnFDDdtXP4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkHazcrCZl0&t=96s
    That's all well and good but where can you get roll caps these days?

    ACC

  2. #42
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by MUSTANG View Post
    perotter:


    In post # 2, I described the following:

    I packed each primer using the end of a chop stick; then placed a drop of Acetone in each primer. Acetone dried quickly; so I waited until it was dried then used 91% alcohol on each primer. Did NOT use a paper disk on these primers. Seated the anvils into the primer and mixture using a small C clamp. After drying; it became apparent that small amounts of primer mixture was able to fall out of the primers through the gaps between the three anvil legs. Use of a “Paper Foil” over the mixture and below the anvil is apparently mandatory to keep mixture in place.

    ......

    Despite this admonition that a Foil is not required to keep the primer mix n place; my problems with the mix breaking up and falling out - and higher % of ignition both went away after I introduced a paper foil and an Alcohol/Shellac mixture . After progressing to the next stage Testing with Powder and Ball in the .223 test vehicle; I may go back and try removing the Foil Paper Disk. For now I will retain it.
    Off hand I'd guess that I pack the compound to a much higher pressure than what you are and that might be the reason for the difference. I've never packed them using a wooden stick. I've always used metal, either brass or steel.

    When packing the compound for making a small number of test primers, I hold the packing tool like one would an awl and put push down hard. This requires there being a piece of metal flat between the palm of my hand and the metal packing rod. I Otherwise I'd poke a hole into my hand. For small primers(what I usually test with) I made a packing tool that is attached to a palm piece.

    So I'm thinking that maybe you are holding the pack stick like one holds a pencil?

    What I know doing it this way is I've never had misfires with any of the proven corrosive mixes nor has any of the compound ever broken up and fell out.

    Nor am I saying you need to change anything you do, especially when you are in the middle of testing your method. If you're happy with the results, that is all that matters. I'm just giving a different way of doing it and the results of doing the way I do for anyone who might want to try a way of saving labor or does like the results the are having.

    By the way, I'm looking forward to your tests in the rifle and I hope you post what powder you are using.

  3. #43
    Boolit Bub
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    Bulk Chemicals

    If you want to make your own H-48 compound, I found that this source of firework chemicals are easy to work with and provide a good product.
    https://www.pyrochemsource.com

    They have everything you need and they come in one pound bags. Thus, in one fell swoop, you can get more than you need.

    It is good for making black powder too (cheaper than tree stump remover)

  4. #44
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by ACC View Post
    That's all well and good but where can you get roll caps these days?

    ACC
    Try this location:

    https://www.civilwarstuff.com/product/roll-caps/
    Mustang

    "In the beginning... the patriot is a scarce man, and brave and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain.

  5. #45
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeping Dog View Post
    Bulk Chemicals

    If you want to make your own H-48 compound, I found that this source of firework chemicals are easy to work with and provide a good product.
    https://www.pyrochemsource.com

    They have everything you need and they come in one pound bags. Thus, in one fell swoop, you can get more than you need.

    It is good for making black powder too (cheaper than tree stump remover)
    Good information
    Don Verna


  6. #46
    Boolit Buddy
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    Hobby Chemical Supply is another good source. This stuff is pretty cheap. If you put a pencil to paper, it's crazy how many percussion caps, primers, etc a pound of each of these chemicals will make.

  7. #47
    Boolit Master
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    Where to find glass powder?

    Lafaun
    Just staying at home and playing with multi-color boolits.

  8. #48
    Boolit Bub
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    You make glass powder yourself. My 1st batch was just ground up glass from an old lightbulb. I have a mortar and pestle, then grind it until it is as small as I have patience for.

    Mark from Aardvark reloading has a video showing his process:
    http://aardvarkreloading.com
    https://gunstreamer.com/watch/reload...h2n7R32jA.html

  9. #49
    Boolit Master Doughty's Avatar
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    So, am trying to buy the same chemicals that are in the Prime-All package. Ordered from Hobby Chemical Supply (https://hobbychemicalsupply.com/. For the potassium chlorate (KCIO3) I got instead potassium perchlorate (KCIO4). They didn't show the potassium chlorate. Is this still going to work? Pyro Chemical Source (https://www.pyrochemsource.com/) has the KCIO3 and KCIO4, for the same price.
    AKA "Old Vic"
    "I am a great believer in powder-burning".
    --Theodore Roosevelt, Hunting Trips of a Ranchman

  10. #50
    Boolit Bub
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    I suggest getting the right stuff. I have no idea what perchlorate would result in. I know waiting and shipping costs is a drag, but you don't want an unstable compound.

    Also, if you haven't read and watched the stuff from Aardvark reloading, I suggest it. They recommend mixing the compounds by rolling the mixture back and forth on wax paper and NOT stirring it.

  11. #51
    Boolit Master
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    GONRA's been an amateur primer nut since high school days:

    Suggest one stick to NON FRAGMENTING - (NOT GLASS!) CONTAINERS!

    Put powdered ingredients in a small plastic vial. Put vial into a small Harbor Freight Tumbler.
    Let it run at end of 100 foot extension cord for 15 minutes or so - really nice homogeneous powder mix.

    Buy olde CH Swag-O-Matic presses, ASSUMING you can make all sorts of handy small tooling.
    (Cup & Draw primer cups / structural top foils from flat stock,
    consolidate primer mix under known loading pressure, etc. etc.)

    If you guys are REALLY gonna use "rehabbed primer cup primers" in loaded ammo,
    BE SURE to have really first class eye protection when you shoot!

    My crowning achievement was to make NCNM 9mm (diameter) Berdan primers from scratch.
    Cups from 42mil Cu flat stock, structural top foils from 3 ml Al foil,
    2 grains FA959 dry mix consolidated at perhaps 800 psi
    in a CH Swag-O-Matic press converted to a dead weight apparatus.
    Used in 14.5mm Soviet and other ammo....

    Put green food dye in the top foil sealing lacquer to pretend its a RWS product. Ha Ha.

  12. #52
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by GONRA View Post
    GONRA's been an amateur primer nut since high school days:

    Suggest one stick to NON FRAGMENTING - (NOT GLASS!) CONTAINERS!

    Put powdered ingredients in a small plastic vial. Put vial into a small Harbor Freight Tumbler.
    Let it run at end of 100 foot extension cord for 15 minutes or so - really nice homogeneous powder mix.

    Buy olde CH Swag-O-Matic presses, ASSUMING you can make all sorts of handy small tooling.
    (Cup & Draw primer cups / structural top foils from flat stock,
    consolidate primer mix under known loading pressure, etc. etc.)

    If you guys are REALLY gonna use "rehabbed primer cup primers" in loaded ammo,
    BE SURE to have really first class eye protection when you shoot!

    My crowning achievement was to make NCNM 9mm (diameter) Berdan primers from scratch.
    Cups from 42mil Cu flat stock, structural top foils from 3 ml Al foil,
    2 grains FA959 dry mix consolidated at perhaps 800 psi
    in a CH Swag-O-Matic press converted to a dead weight apparatus.
    Used in 14.5mm Soviet and other ammo....

    Put green food dye in the top foil sealing lacquer to pretend its a RWS product. Ha Ha.
    Thanks for the good ideas. I assume from what you posted that a swag press works better than a reloading press. Or is there something about a Swag-O-Matic that is special?

    I have an old swag press. I could get a Swag-O-Matic from my cousin, but it's currently stored "somewhere" in a 40 ft. semi-trailer.

    FA959 is the red phosphorous/barium nitrate mix? I know you have posted about it here a few years ago.

  13. #53
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doughty View Post
    So, am trying to buy the same chemicals that are in the Prime-All package. Ordered from Hobby Chemical Supply (https://hobbychemicalsupply.com/. For the potassium chlorate (KCIO3) I got instead potassium perchlorate (KCIO4). They didn't show the potassium chlorate. Is this still going to work? Pyro Chemical Source (https://www.pyrochemsource.com/) has the KCIO3 and KCIO4, for the same price.
    You need to get potassium chlorate. While potassium perchlorate is used some compounds, but they are much different than the one you are working on.

  14. #54
    Boolit Master Doughty's Avatar
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    perotter, thanks. Looks to me like Pyro Chemical Source is THE place to get all the ingredients (except ground glass) at one place.
    AKA "Old Vic"
    "I am a great believer in powder-burning".
    --Theodore Roosevelt, Hunting Trips of a Ranchman

  15. #55
    Boolit Buddy
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    I think they'll both work, but the potassium perchlorate is more stable. If you look out there for the differences, there's plenty of info. It looks like the pottasium perchlorate gets the nod for flash powder over potassium chlorate. I personally use potassium chlorate. If it were me, I'd make a small batch and put it on a vice anvil and give it a tap with a hammer. I bet it goes bang. I bet it's just a tad less reactive. There are clips out there about that, as well. I'd also just try reaching out to Hobby Chemicals for the heck of it and see what they think.

  16. #56
    Boolit Master
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    perotter NO! NO! NO!

    GONRA sez - US military ammo seems to use FA956 primer mix.
    FA959 is like FA956 but uses Zr instead of Al.
    (Pretty sure U.S.&A. loaded FA959 then went to FA956.
    Al is MUCH SAFER to handle than Zr! !!!)

    Purifying Red P to use in primers involves NaCN.
    NOT FOR THE BASEMENT / KITCHEN TABLE "CHEMIST"!!!!!

    You do NOT wanna gas the Little Family with HCN if you screw up!!!
    And you will screw up - we all do.....

  17. #57
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doughty View Post
    perotter, thanks. Looks to me like Pyro Chemical Source is THE place to get all the ingredients (except ground glass) at one place.
    You're welcome. The ground glass is a DIY as far as I know.

    I used/tested the sand that one can buy at the home improvement stores that is sold for sand blasting. I works fine, but then I was informed that it might cause barrel ware. But that would depend on other factors, like powder used, etc.

    If you aren't reloading .22 RF, here is a very well proven mix that doesn't have the glass in it and what I like better:

    H-42 Primer Compound and is what was used in the military 30/06 ammo for a long time.
    Potassium chlorate 47.2%
    Antimony sulfide 30.83%
    Sulfur 21.97%

    It wouldn't hurt to add 1% sodium bicarbonate to this. In case there is a bit of acid(etc) still in the sulfur. Improves how long the mix will last. Talking years or decades here, but IMO a good habit to have.

  18. #58
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    Perotter:

    Are the H42 Ratios based on Weight or Volume percentages?


    (I am waiting on temps to get above +15% before I venture out to test fire the remanufactured Prime All primers in the Axis .223 with Powder and Ball. My days of the USMC Mountain Warfare Training Center and winter deployments to Norway are far behind me and I am sitting comfortably near the Wood Stove enjoying the view out the window where it has varied between +14° and -20° for the last 10 days. Yeah, I turned into a wimp. Maybe later this week the temps will rise enough to venture out to the range).
    Mustang

    "In the beginning... the patriot is a scarce man, and brave and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain.

  19. #59
    Boolit Buddy
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    Cold where I am too. I was out this morning and I had just shy of 30 below. At least the wind was down. I know this is Perotter's show, But I mix it by weight. That's the recipe I got. It's also on Ardvaark Reloading's site, if I am not mistaken.

    I've also used glass, sand, and neither of each, and they all go bang. I've been also using some gum Arabic as a binder as well. I'm waiting on the results of your test primers.

  20. #60
    Boolit Master



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    Got an interesting note today. It revolved around "RailRoad Torpedo's". Did some research and found the following. I'll post the interesting pertinent part 1stly ; then post the entire Patent information from 1920. Sounds/smells like primer mix to me.


    An improved explosive composition for railway signal torpedoes, comprising sulphur one part,- aluminum one and threefourths parts, barium nitrate one part and perchlorate two parts, combined in substantially the proportions specified, producing a composition with a sharp flash detonation and which is not subject to spontaneous ignition.

    The patent info I found on the web:


    Description

    UNITED STATES arent ossica.

    LOUIS ROSS, NEWTON'VILLE, MASSACHUSETTS, ASSIGNOR TO CENTRAL RAILWAY SIGNAL COMPANY, OF PITTSBURGH, PENNSYLVANIA, A. CORPORATION OF NEW 1 No Drawing.

    JERSEY.

    COMPOSITION FOR RAILWAY SIGNAL TORIPEDO ES.

    To all whom it may concern: V Be it known that I, LOUIS S. Ross, a citizen of the United States residing at Newtonville, in the county of" Middlesex and State of Massachusetts, have invented certain new and useful Improvements in Compositions for Railway following is a specification. v

    This invention relates to improvements in compositions for railway signal torpedoes, and is for use in torpedoes that are suitably attached to the head of a railroad rail to be exploded by the wheel of the locomotive for giving a signalto the engineer, as is well understood'by those skilled in this art.

    It is well-known to those skilled inthis art that the explosive for railway signal torpedoes is made either in the form of a loose powder or a molded tablet, and my improved composition is adapted to be used in either of the above' forms, or partly tablet and partly'loose powder, as will be pointed out hereinafter.

    The primary objects of my improved composition for railway signal torpedoes are- 1. To produce a louder detonation for a given quantity. of composition, whereby the amount of composition used may be reduced,

    thus effecting economy in the manufacture,

    torpedo, and; would be of value to the train tions now in use.

    and at the same time to enable a smaller torpedo to be used, which among other advantages, is less liable to be pushed from the track, by the locomotive wheel than a larger men because of the reduced size, enabling a greater number to be carried in a given space. 2. Toaadd to the saftey in the manufacture sensitiveness ofv previous torpedo compositions to friction and spontaneous ignition, which are present in the torpedo composi- 3. To produce a railway signal torpedo composition, which adds a signal flash to the signal detonation, whereby the engineer may see as well as hear the explosion of the torpedo which takes place the'instant it is struck by the engine.

    y improved composition which involves all the foregoing objects is composed of perchlorate, aluminum, sulphur, barium nitrate,

    sand or sharp flint; and when made in tablet form dextrine is added as a binder. If, .how-

    Signal Torpedoes, of which the pilot wheels at the front end of the Specification of Letterslatent. Patnted an. 24, 1922. Application filed October 7, 1920. Serial No. 415,264.

    "ever, the composition is to be used in powder form dextrine is omitted, and in either form of the composition'the sand or flint may be omitted if desired.

    " In practice, I haveused the foregoing ingredients in substantially the following proportions:

    The foregoing proportions of the several parts may be widely varied either way without departing fromthe spirit and scope of my present invention.

    The foregoing composition can'be made to give a more brilliant flash, but at somewhat more expense, by the addition of magnesium, and also magnesium can be substituted entirely for the aluminum.

    This composition may be manufactured as a moulded plastic without the aluminum or magnesium, or both, and then the desired amount of either aluminum or magnesium,

    or both, added as a loose binder in the case or envelope containing the explosive composition.

    Furthermore, barium nitrate may be omitted, but I find that better results are obtained by its use than without it.

    The perchlorate adds to .the safety of the manufacture of the torpedo and safety in the storage of the torpedoes and at the same time adds to the sharpness of its detonation.

    The function of the aluminum or magnesium, or both, is primarily twofold. One

    to furnish a flash and the other to cause a thermite reaction, causing a violent combining with the oxygen of the composition, thus adding to the violence of the detonation. The aluminum or magnesium, or both, rapidly extracts the oxygen from the other chemicals of the compound so that the violence of their action adds to the sharpness and loudness of the detonation.

    It may be added here that the perchlorate in this compositionincreases the thermite effect, and thereby adds also to the sharpness and violence of the detonation.

    The barium in this composition not only imparts insensitiveness, but also furnishes additional oxygen to be extracted by the aluminum or magnesium, or both. It' allows the last-mentioned chemicals to do more Work by rapid extraction of the oxygen, and this adds to the flash as well as the detonation.

    Aluminum, I find, is a better extractor of oxygen than magnesium, and it is also cheaper and, therefore, under ordinary conditions, preferable to the use of magnesium.

    I desire it to be understood that where a flash is notdesired the aluminum, or magnesium, or both, may be omitted from the composition, and in this event, the remaining ingredients produce a composition having the advantages of louder detonation and combined in substantially the proportions specified for producing a torpedo with inducing a sharp flash detonation, and a composition which is not subject to spontaneous ignition.

    3. An improved explosive composition for railway signal torpedoes, comprising sulphur one part,- aluminum one and threefourths parts, barium nitrate one part and perchlorate two parts, combined in substantially the proportions specified, producing a composition with a sharp flash detonation and which is not subject to spontaneous ignition.

    4. An improved composition for railway signal torpedoes, comprising a perchlorate and barium nitrate combined for the purpose described.

    In testimony whereofI hereunto aflix my signature.

    LOUIS S. ROSS.
    Mustang

    "In the beginning... the patriot is a scarce man, and brave and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check