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Thread: Reloading Primers using Prime-All Mixture (Testing Results)

  1. #21
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Froogal View Post
    How long will it be before someone sets up a "custom primer reloading" business?
    Never in this country.

    If I was connected to the upper echelons of the Democratic Party, I would try getting primers out of China and setting up distribution. They would likely cost $8/1000 wholesale.
    Don Verna


  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
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    Never in this country.

    If I was connected to the upper echelons of the Democratic Party, I would try getting primers out of China and setting up distribution. They would likely cost $8/1000 wholesale.
    Maybe there is a use for Hunter after all. Anybody here buddies with him?

  3. #23
    Boolit Master Doughty's Avatar
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    Yesterday I finished reloading a primer using the Prime-All system. I packed compound into the cup using a tool I made out of plastic material. I packed it in until the cup was about half full. I then put a drop of acetone in that and let it dry for over 24 hrs. I noticed that the compound was very fragile and ready to crumble. I then punched a dot out of tracing (paper patching) paper and placed it over the compound. I then laid the anvil on top of the paper before very carefully seating it all into a .45 ACP case. I loaded the case with 5.0 grains of Bullseye under a 200 grain Lee rnfp.

    Today it was off to the range with the loaded round and a 1911. I loaded the round into a magazine and loaded the pistol, aimed at a target and pressed the trigger. BANG! As immediate, loud and sharp as you could hope for. Even hit the target. I examined the fired case and did NOT see the rust-like residue in it like I had seen when only firing the primed case. Still cleaned the pistol with hot soap and water though.

    Next is to find a way to keep the priming compound in place without the paper dot. Then see about making multiple primers with a high degree of reliability. Fun, and I still have my eyes and all my fingers.
    AKA "Old Vic"
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doughty View Post
    Yesterday I finished reloading a primer using the Prime-All system. I packed compound into the cup using a tool I made out of plastic material. I packed it in until the cup was about half full. I then put a drop of acetone in that and let it dry for over 24 hrs. I noticed that the compound was very fragile and ready to crumble. I then punched a dot out of tracing (paper patching) paper and placed it over the compound. I then laid the anvil on top of the paper before very carefully seating it all into a .45 ACP case. I loaded the case with 5.0 grains of Bullseye under a 200 grain Lee rnfp.

    Today it was off to the range with the loaded round and a 1911. I loaded the round into a magazine and loaded the pistol, aimed at a target and pressed the trigger. BANG! As immediate, loud and sharp as you could hope for. Even hit the target. I examined the fired case and did NOT see the rust-like residue in it like I had seen when only firing the primed case. Still cleaned the pistol with hot soap and water though.

    Next is to find a way to keep the priming compound in place without the paper dot. Then see about making multiple primers with a high degree of reliability. Fun, and I still have my eyes and all my fingers.

    My thoughts are:

    (1) I found Acetone dried to quickly; reason I am using 91% alcohol.
    (2) Place the paper disk over the Prime-All you packed; then pack again over the disk.
    (3) Put a small or two small drops of the Alcohol/Shellac on top of the paper disk/Prime-All mixture in the Primer Cup. The Shellac in the 10 to 1 mixture (10 parts 91% alcohol and 1 part shellac) penetrates the paper and causes the primer mixture to become a "Solid" after drying.
    (4) Place the anvil on top of the paper disk/Prime-All; then seat using whatever technique you are using for seating the anvil. You want to seat the anvil while the mixture is wet so it is not shock sensitive.
    Mustang

    "In the beginning... the patriot is a scarce man, and brave and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain.

  5. #25
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    Reloading Primers using Prime-All Mixture - Test #4.

    Used same 15 expended Small Rifle Primers from previous Tests #1, #2, and #3. Disassembled anvils from 15 Primers using a small diameter sharp dental pick. This tool makes it much easier than the sheet rock nail. Still hold the primers cup using a set of straight stainless steel forceps.

    Removed the firing pin indentation using 1/8” Harbor Freight Punch. This time returned to using the RailiRoad Rail with the cup on the Rail; then the punch and hammer used to iron out the dimple. Primer cleaning was accomplished in a Harbor Freight ultrasound cleaner with Dawn Dish soap; but this time I added two tablespoons of White Vinegar to aid in cleaning.

    Mixed one unit of Prime-All primer mixture as described in Tests #1, 2,& 3. Once again I packed each primer with prime-all mix using the end of a chop stick. For Test #4; I changed paper and used a 1/8 inch paper disk cut from Cash Register tape. I also changed and used a mixture of 10 parts 91% alcohol and 1 part Shellac from Ace Hardware; placing one or two fine drops of the mixture on top of the paper disk – soaking into the Prime-All mixture.

    For this test; I Seated the anvils into the primer cup and mixture using a 4 Inch C – Clamp and a Large flat thick washer to use as a flat end on top of the Primer/Anvil during seating. The C-Clamp operates as a screw press. The use of the Reloading press was causing the primer cups to form an expansion ring/ridge along the base of the Primer Cup.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The C-Clamp needs to have a Flat jaw on the bottom so the primer cup can be seated. I have smaller cast C-Clamps that has a ridge down the middle of the Jaw area; no good as the primer will not sit flat. A picture of the C-Clamp Screw Press I set up follows.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The following picture provides a close up view of a primer sitting on the Flat Jaw and the metal washer used to hold on top of the Anvil before screwing down the “Press”. Since the Anvil is a Tripod; some attention to detail is required to ensure it goes straight down on all three legs. Once the anvil is seated by screwing in until snug (often I can FEEL the anvil slip into the Primer Cup and Seat as I screw the press down); use a magnifying glass in order to ensure all three legs were seated squarely and no part of the anvil sticks up above the primer cup lip. If there is one side of the Anvil higher than the lip; then use the washer in that area while screwing down the Clamp once again to seat the primer edge, the tripod anvil will shift slightly in the cup doing this, and all should be well.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I then take the completed (still wet) primer and seat it into a .223 case; ensuring it is fully seated. I let the primer mix dry in the brass. Test #4 has about 60 hours drying time.



    Test results: Shot 15 primers: All 15 shots had strong loud report.

    The reddish coating on brass and in the barrel continues; at a later date will load powder and ball and see if the reddish coating on brass and in the barrel persists – or is reduced with a full powder pressure test.

    Success with 15 of 15 strong reports is encouraging; but will have to see if we have accomplished long term higher reliability.

    And yes; cleaned the rifle within the hour of Testing the Primers.
    Last edited by MUSTANG; 02-05-2021 at 11:16 PM.
    Mustang

    "In the beginning... the patriot is a scarce man, and brave and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain.

  6. #26
    Boolit Master Doughty's Avatar
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    I remember reading somewhere that the legs of the anvil should protrude above the cup "somewhat". I believe the rational was that, when the primer was seated into the pocket, the anvil would be forced into the priming compound, crushing it "somewhat", and making a more reliable ignition. I have tried it both ways and haven't observed a difference.
    AKA "Old Vic"
    "I am a great believer in powder-burning".
    --Theodore Roosevelt, Hunting Trips of a Ranchman

  7. #27
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    Outstanding thread and data. I find that you'll have much better ignition if you actually weigh the components in place of using the dippers. This stuff is fun to mess with. I have reloaded 22 LR with success. It's really not about the primers or reloading 22 LR right now. It's a skill that we can all learn with any luck.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duckdog View Post
    Outstanding thread and data. I find that you'll have much better ignition if you actually weigh the components in place of using the dippers. This stuff is fun to mess with. I have reloaded 22 LR with success. It's really not about the primers or reloading 22 LR right now. It's a skill that we can all learn with any luck.

    I disagree. It is about reloading for some of us. This will not be fun for most. It is not fun to make 30 primers an hour that may or may not work. Seems even desperate people are not that desperate. Most will quit shooting rather than remanufacture primers.

    For the person who shoots 1000 rounds or less a year, this may work. If that same person had invested in $150 in 5000 primers, they would have been able to ride out the shortage. That is the lesson to be learned.

    For volume shooters, every method to date is unsatisfactory and I do not see how that will change.

    BTW, seeing as this is so much fun for you, you must have made a couple of hundred by now. Would you share how much it cost to make 200, how many worked, and how long it took.
    Last edited by dverna; 02-07-2021 at 12:33 AM.
    Don Verna


  9. #29
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    great thread.. I nominate for stickey material
    Any technology not understood, can seem like Magic!!!

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  10. #30
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    Really interesting stuff. I really like how you have such details notes on your tests. I think this is well worth while, even if it is just peace of mind. For me, I still have plenty of primers, but I like the idea of being able to shoot as much as I want without tapping into my "reserve".

    For my primer reloading, I've mostly trying then out in my 38 Spl revolver. When I've been using Prime-All and H-48, I've not wanted to mess up guns that have a lot of small parts where I'd have to do a major breakdown to clean it all. Thus, simple revolver for those test.

    One thing that I have run across in my research.... Primers for the AR have been developed with a harder anvil. This is to avoid slam fires. As such, when I shoot my reloaded primers, it will be using primers from military 5.56mm cases. I have about 20,000 primers saved up.


    I've just started working with the Lead Nitratohypophosphite primer compound (EPH 20), which works quite well, but I haven't done a big test with it yet (that is next). However, now that I've gotten a non-corrosive compound (that is basically like commercial), I am willing to put it in my auto and AR.

    The other night, I did 30 primers in about 20 minutes. I think as I practice and develop better technique, I can improve this (consider the first time you reloaded). I've only fired 8 of them and they all fired.

    I have the Prime-all and I asked if it was H-48, which Sharpshooter said no. I think it is close to that, but his stuff is convienent and easy to use.
    Prime-all
    https://sharpshooter-22lr-reloader.m...iming-compound

    Mark at Aardvark Reloading has quite a lot of useful information and a whole document on primers.
    http://aardvarkreloading.com

    Cheers
    Eric

  11. #31
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    Things that I've tried

    -- I am using the back end of a drill bit (the flat part). I put the head of the drill bit into a vice and set the cup on top. A few light strokes with a hammer makes the primer cup pretty flat.

    -- I just use the side of a pair of plyers to seat the anvils. After the compound is put in and wet, I put the flat part of a pliers on the cup/anvil and press down. In very short order, the anvil is flush with the edges of the cup. Sometimes, there is a click but not all of the time.

  12. #32
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    Duckdog,
    If you have weighed any amounts for primers, could you tell us what weights you've used?

    I also agree with you, that for me at least, it is about learning a new skill.

    Don, you have made it evident (in this and other threads) that you don't like the idea of reloading primers, and that if everybody had been as smart and well off as you, that they would have bought tens of thousands of primers long ago. For those not in your situation, threads like this might be of interest. I am reminded of the ones, many years ago, who expressed similar sentiments about reloading and casting bullets.
    Last edited by Doughty; 02-07-2021 at 12:21 PM.
    AKA "Old Vic"
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    --Theodore Roosevelt, Hunting Trips of a Ranchman

  13. #33
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    When I was playing with primers and percussion caps I tested them two ways. First I built a drop tube to drop a known weight from various heights to measure the all-fire energy. Second I placed a piece of paper below the caps to 'photograph' the blast pattern and intensity. I got distracted before implementing my 3rd test of placing a cellphone a few feet away and graph the explosion sound profile. My percussion caps were all quite reliable and consistent in the tests but primers needed more work. I began working on making primers with the H48 compound before life intervened.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duckdog View Post
    Outstanding thread and data. I find that you'll have much better ignition if you actually weigh the components in place of using the dippers. This stuff is fun to mess with. I have reloaded 22 LR with success. It's really not about the primers or reloading 22 LR right now. It's a skill that we can all learn with any luck.

    The shifting from VOLUME to WEIGHT for mixing components could be problematic. In the case of Prime-All there are 4 components. Each of these components has a specific density/mass. Also texture (fluffiness of the material).

    I have also the last 6 months been playing with materials for making Black Powder based on many posts on this site and others. One of the factoids I located was that back 300 years ago and previous; there were references to the "Recipe" for making Black Powder. These did not provide guidance on Volume or Weight for components. Turns out the Recipes were based on weight - not volume (i.e. https://www.ihaveadotcom.com/Pyro/BP...owder_101.html

    In the case of Prime-All; the mixture is set by the retailer as a VOLUME measurement - not a weight measurement. We could take and do a conversion by say taking 10X the mix of each component measured out by Volume, then weigh the total, and convert each item to a "Weight" ration. But; for now the volumes I am dealing with are small and I am going to stick to Volume Measuring each of the components according to the Mfg directions. Should I get into larger scale production; the Weight Measuring high make sense at a later date - BUT careful measurement and weighing will be required to do the conversion from Volume to Weight.
    Mustang

    "In the beginning... the patriot is a scarce man, and brave and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain.

  15. #35
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    Mustang, what you say makes sense to me. The problem is that the double cup tool that came with my set is kind of rough. I'm thinking it was 3-D printed on fast mode. Anyway, I'm having difficulties getting consistent amounts.

    After reading Larry Gibson's post on the differences of using small pistol primers vs small pistol magnum vs small rifle, I think for now I will test with starting loads in my Ruger Blackhawk.
    AKA "Old Vic"
    "I am a great believer in powder-burning".
    --Theodore Roosevelt, Hunting Trips of a Ranchman

  16. #36
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    "I disagree. It is about reloading for some of us. This will not be fun for most. It is not fun to make 30 primers an hour that may or may not work. Seems even desperate people are not that desperate. Most will quit shooting rather than remanufacture primers.

    For the person who shoots 1000 rounds or less a year, this may work. If that same person had invested in $150 in 5000 primers, they would have been able to ride out the shortage. That is the lesson to be learned.

    For volume shooters, every method to date is unsatisfactory and I do not see how that will change.

    BTW, seeing as this is so much fun for you, you must have made a couple of hundred by now. Would you share how much it cost to make 200, how many worked, and how long it took."

    What the heck brought that on?? I personally stocked up well enough to last me a long, long time. If you do not want to participate in this discussion productively, then don't. I say this with respect to your opinion. Show some respect to those who want to learn a new skill, or even fail at trying it. It's posts like yours that kill one thing... people participating in very good posts. Enough said.

    Gents. As far as weighing the materials, one must understand what is in the kit. It is the H48 priming mix, so there is actually a recipe for it. It appears the four bags contain Potassium Chlorate, Antinomy Sulphide, Sulphur, and a binder, from what they have said in their videos. I have used the recipe on page 12 of the document attached to this link, and they go bang pretty much all the time.

    Here's a link to one of the documents with the recipe: http://aardvarkreloading.com/resourc...imercourse.pdf

    There is also a very good thread under the special projects tab on this and reloading 22 LR that really go into it.

    I have ordered the chemicals separately, so I know what they look like. The white powder is Potassium Chlorate. The black powder is Antinomy Sulphide. The yellow powder is Sulphur, and the tan powder is the binder, or sand to replace the ground glass. I treat it as the ground glass. Mark breaks it down pretty good here: http://aardvarkreloading.com. Here's a nice video breaking the weights down, too. https://gunstreamer.com/watch/reload...huEk6zTiH.html

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeping Dog View Post
    Really interesting stuff. I really like how you have such details notes on your tests. I think this is well worth while, even if it is just peace of mind. For me, I still have plenty of primers, but I like the idea of being able to shoot as much as I want without tapping into my "reserve".

    For my primer reloading, I've mostly trying then out in my 38 Spl revolver. When I've been using Prime-All and H-48, I've not wanted to mess up guns that have a lot of small parts where I'd have to do a major breakdown to clean it all. Thus, simple revolver for those test.

    One thing that I have run across in my research.... Primers for the AR have been developed with a harder anvil. This is to avoid slam fires. As such, when I shoot my reloaded primers, it will be using primers from military 5.56mm cases. I have about 20,000 primers saved up.


    I've just started working with the Lead Nitratohypophosphite primer compound (EPH 20), which works quite well, but I haven't done a big test with it yet (that is next). However, now that I've gotten a non-corrosive compound (that is basically like commercial), I am willing to put it in my auto and AR.

    The other night, I did 30 primers in about 20 minutes. I think as I practice and develop better technique, I can improve this (consider the first time you reloaded). I've only fired 8 of them and they all fired.

    I have the Prime-all and I asked if it was H-48, which Sharpshooter said no. I think it is close to that, but his stuff is convienent and easy to use.
    Prime-all
    https://sharpshooter-22lr-reloader.m...iming-compound

    Mark at Aardvark Reloading has quite a lot of useful information and a whole document on primers.
    http://aardvarkreloading.com

    Cheers
    Eric
    Eric,
    That is interesting. 30 in 20 minutes is not too shabby!

    The YouTube videos I have seen are nowhere near that.
    Don Verna


  18. #38
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    This video shows an even more streamlined way to do it. Goes pretty darn fast. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkHazcrCZl0

    When 22 Reloader says its not the H48, it's probably the H42 compound. That's H48 minus the glass or fine sand. Both are essentially the same.

  19. #39
    Boolit Master

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    If you apply the proper amount of pressure to a dry mix, you shouldn’t need to put a piece over the mix to keep it from falling out. The paper is only is only needed for a wet mix and then only so that no compound sticks to the packing punch. You'll find this in the tech manuals used by the manufactures of primers.

    Also, one might consider loading this compound as a wet mix by putting alcohol or alcohol/water into the compound when mixing the ingredients. Especially if one is having any misfires. By being wet when mixing, the ingredients are in much closer contact and mixed more evenly.

    On wet mix vs dry when I was working on an experimental non-corrosive mix on mine, I started out mixing it dry. And was getting only 8 out of 10 to fire. As I had about exhaust what I could do to get it better, I switched to wet mixing. Then I never had a single primer not fire and I test a few 100 of them.

  20. #40
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    perotter:


    In post # 2, I described the following:

    I packed each primer using the end of a chop stick; then placed a drop of Acetone in each primer. Acetone dried quickly; so I waited until it was dried then used 91% alcohol on each primer. Did NOT use a paper disk on these primers. Seated the anvils into the primer and mixture using a small C clamp. After drying; it became apparent that small amounts of primer mixture was able to fall out of the primers through the gaps between the three anvil legs. Use of a “Paper Foil” over the mixture and below the anvil is apparently mandatory to keep mixture in place.

    I found this article: https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor..._200909/100079


    The discussion in the article on "Foils" stated:

    Foiled Again
    Most component primers have a little disk of paper between the anvil and the priming mix. There are many "campfire" rumors concerning this item. First, it's called "foil paper," not because it's made of foil but because it replaces the true metal foil used to seal early percussion caps. (See the illustration on page 12.) The paper is chemically treated to burn ash-free.

    The reason this little disk exists is strictly a manufacturing convenience. Wet primer pellets are smaller than the inside diameter of the cup when inserted and must be compacted to achieve their proper diameter and height. Without the foil paper, the wet mix would stick to the compaction pins and jam up the assembly process. The absorbent paper soaks up some of the moisture and binding agent from the wet mix and stays with the pellet when the pin is lifted at the end of the operation. It's the same reason you put wax paper between hamburger patties — it prevents sticking.


    Despite this admonition that a Foil is not required to keep the primer mix n place; my problems with the mix breaking up and falling out - and higher % of ignition both went away after I introduced a paper foil and an Alcohol/Shellac mixture . After progressing to the next stage Testing with Powder and Ball in the .223 test vehicle; I may go back and try removing the Foil Paper Disk. For now I will retain it.
    Mustang

    "In the beginning... the patriot is a scarce man, and brave and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check