Hatch's PID; a couple questions from a new user.

[Doughty]

I just got one of Hatch's PIDs. I downloaded the Golander manual and read it. Still have some questions.

1. Should the thermocouple be left in the lead when the pot is turned off? Or put another way, should the thermocouple be in the lead while the pot is heating up and first melting the lead?

2. Does the temperature have to be reset every time the PID is turned on?

3. Any other tidbits on best practices for a new PID user?

[Rcmaveric]

1) I leave mine in with no problems.
2) Not with mine.
3) you read the manual? I just turned mine and rolled the dice playing with buttons until I figured it out. Not really. Hardy little device's. Just dont set it on fire.

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[pastera]

I just got one of Hatch's PIDs. I downloaded the Golander manual and read it. Still have some questions.

1. Should the thermocouple be left in the lead when the pot is turned off? Or put another way, should the thermocouple be in the lead while the pot is heating up and first melting the lead?

2. Does the temperature have to be reset every time the PID is turned on?

3. Any other tidbits on best practices for a new PID user?

I built my own but very similar

1 - I leave my thermocouple in the pot. If you don't have a second thermocouple then removing it makes sense if you want to use the PID to control other devices

2 - No. You should only need to retune the controller when your process changes (use it to control a toaster oven for heat treat, powder coat or HiTek)

3 - I have found the best way to autotune is to get the pot up to temperature and then turn off everything and wait until the pot just starts to solidify. Turn everything back on and start the autotune.

[Doughty]

Thank you for the replies.

[HATCH]

I just got one of Hatch's PIDs. I downloaded the Golander manual and read it. Still have some questions.

1. Should the thermocouple be left in the lead when the pot is turned off? Or put another way, should the thermocouple be in the lead while the pot is heating up and first melting the lead?

2. Does the temperature have to be reset every time the PID is turned on?

3. Any other tidbits on best practices for a new PID user?

Sorry that I am just seeing this question.
Its always best to contact me directly concerning any questions about a PID that I have made.

(1) - If you only intend to use the PID with your single casting pot then I would just leave the probe in the pot. I do now sell a type 2 PID setup that has a removable probe and comes with 2 probes for those that want to control multiple devices.

(2) - The PID retains both the set temp as well as any learned settings (from auto tune) when it is powered off. I set the set point to 750F when I test them and ship them out at that setting.

(3) - With the Hatch PID setup, it is recommended that you run AUTO TUNE when you first set it up. Auto tune learns the heating characteristics of your pot/oven/whatever you controling and saves it. Once auto tune is run it should stay constant +/- 1 deg F or pretty close.
You can still keep the factory thermostat hooked up. Just turn it wide open. Consider it a backup. On the Lee 4/20 pot its pretty easy to bypass it.

[Doughty]

I just saw your post here. In that I am still having problems I will contact you directly rather than posting them here.

[HATCH]

I sent you my cell phone # and haven’t heard from you.
I am going to assume that this matter has been fixed


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[Dimner]

I have a question I have always wondered about my Hatch pid.

I have autotuned and everything is working just fine, but I'm curious... what is the SET button for? If I just arrow up or down the temperature, that's what the PIDs temp is set to. But if I press SET the display goes to 0000. I can put a number in there too... what does that number accomplish?

[Doughty]

I called that number on the 29th at 1:53 ET and left a message with my phone number. The matter is still not fixed.

Thanks.

[HATCH]

Might want to check the number you dialed as I didn’t get a message

Or PM your number

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Edit. My mistake. The last four is 0939
Resent the correct number

[HATCH]

I have a question I have always wondered about my Hatch pid.

I have autotuned and everything is working just fine, but I'm curious... what is the SET button for? If I just arrow up or down the temperature, that's what the PIDs temp is set to. But if I press SET the display goes to 0000. I can put a number in there too... what does that number accomplish?

To change the temperature you use the arrow buttons to put it at the desired temperature
Then hit set twice.

To access the advance configuration menu you hit the set button then enter the code then set again
But I do not recommend you play around in the advanced configuration menu unless your 100% sure what your doing.


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[Doughty]

I did check the number before I posted the above. Above you indicated that you would rather I contact you "directly," so I sent you a PM. You then indicated that you would rather that I call you. I called the number you left in the PM. Double checked. You might want to check the number you posted. I also thought you wanted to deal with this "directly." But now it seems you want to go back to the open forum. So, here is the problem I'm having, if anyone has some useful information.

"Hatch,

I am still having trouble with the PID I bought from you. A lot of the trouble is likely my unfamiliarity with the terms and abbreviations used in the operators manual.

I am using the PID in an older RCBS Pro Melt furnace.

The problem I am having is that I can’t get the pot temperature to stabilize. I think. Or put another way, I can't get it to "stay constant +/- 1 deg F" like you posted.

I have tried to auto tune several different times.

A typical situation is as follows. After running what I believe to be the auto tune function, the temperatures displayed on the screen don’t seem to stabilize very precisely. I have the desired pot temperature set at 675. The displayed temperature stays around 674 to 676 if I do nothing after the auto tuning function has completed. My Lyman thermometer reads at 660 here.

However, if I start pouring bullets (Using a Lee 6 cavity .45-200 mold with WW alloy), the displayed temperature starts going down. One pour caused the display to drop to 672 then up to 677 back to 672 then back to 675. This takes 5 ½ minutes to complete.

If I pour 10 pours in a row, the display drops down to 639 (while the Lyman goes up to 690). From 639 it then goes up to 699 then back down to 674. This takes right at 20 minutes to complete. The Lyman goes up to 700.

If I just keep casting for around 20 pours the display shows 622 but the Lyman goes on up to 910.

The characteristics of the lead alloy also indicated that the lead was VERY hot. I don’t understand how this can be correct. I have had this Lyman thermometer for over 20 years. I would not argue that it could be off 20 degrees either way, but not over 200 degrees.

Although I have tried auto tuning many times, I am not sure I have ever correctly completed it. The manual says “To activate the auto function, press and hold the > key until the “AT” indicator starts to blink. When auto tune process finished, the “AT” indicator will stop blinking.” When I press and hold the > key the “AT” indicator starts blinking, at a rapid, regularly paced rate. At some point, when the displayed temperature is very near the desired temperature, the “AT” indicator changes to blinking at a slow pace but it has never stopped blinking completely. I assumed that, when this change in pace happened, that the auto tuning had completed. Maybe this is incorrect. On one occasion, after the change in blinking pace, I let it set for 5 minutes with little change. On another occasion, after the change in pace occurred, I pressed and held the > key. Instead of the blinking stopping, it went back to the rapid pace blinking.

Using the guidelines in the manual I went through and confirmed that all of the “initial function parameters” are set at “factory value.”

I made a hanger to hold the probe. It is set at the back of the pot, about a ½” from the wall and a ½” from the bottom.

I initially tried it with my pot's control set on High as you suggested. In the event that the pot's controls were faulty, I rewired the pot, by-passing all it's controls. No change in response.

I would appreciate any guidance you could offer.

Thank you, Richard"

[HATCH]

I edited my post and sent a PM prior to you posting. I did a typo.

But we can discuss it here.

The PID controls the pot as advertised.
As you mentioned it stabilizes within +/- 1 degree
Only after you start casting so things get crazy.

Well you have multiple variables that you haven’t mentioned.

(1) ladle pour or bottom pour?
(2) are you putting the sprues back into the pot?
(3) how long does your pot initially take to get up to temp?

The PID doesn’t compensate for a pot that provides marginal heating. If your pot takes a while to get up to temp and your tossing your sprues back into the pot then the temp is going to drop. No way around this. This would explain the situation your describing.

I have sold 100s of PID controllers.
I have only had a few issues.
(1) SSR fell apart in shipping - defective unit only happened once
(2) faulty connection on thermocouple - has happened a couple times - i check this now

The issues you are describing aren’t typically PID issues unless you have been messing around in the advance configuration menu and changing the factory settings.

With that all being said, send it back to me.
I will refund the money you paid and the return shipping cost.


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[Dimner]

Thanks Hatch!

[slide]

Shouldn't the melting pot be turned all the way up?

[Mike W1]

Shouldn't the melting pot be turned all the way up?

He bypassed that.

[Mike W1]

If it takes 5-1/2 minutes to change 5 degrees that sounds like pot trouble,not PID triuble.

[Doughty]

Just got back from PT, so some more info. The pot is an RCBS Pro Melt. I use it in the bottom pour manner. I don't return the sprues to the pot until I'm through casting. Any more I only do one pot full at a time. I haven't knowingly changed any settings. I didn't stir the pot or put a cold stirring spoon in. I am in an indoor shop, heated to 55 degrees with no crosswinds. As stated above I did check and saw that all the factory settings specified in the owner's manual matched those in the PID.

I have considered that the pot may not be performing up to par. That's one reason I tried by-passing the pot's controls. I couldn't see any difference. Is the heating element element not heating fast or hot enough? I don't know. I don't know what the standards are. What caused me concern was the "If I pour 10 pours in a row, the display drops down to 639 (while the Lyman goes up to 690). From 639 it then goes up to 699 then back down to 674. This takes right at 20 minutes to complete. The Lyman goes up to 700.

If I just keep casting for around 20 pours the display shows 622 but the Lyman goes on up to 910."

The PID showing a lowering temperature as the Lyman thermometer (and my experienced observations) that the alloy was actually getting hotter.

So apparently I was performing the auto tune routine correctly?

I will do a test. Disconnect the PID, run the pot wide open and see how long to melt. Then after pot is completely cold, next day, connect the PID and see how long to melt.

Another thought, last time I unplugged the pot from the PID, so that the pot was no longer able to heat but so that the PID continued reading. I then continued casting. The PID was reading 522 and I was still able to cast good bullets. Got called away so don't know how low it would have gone. Don't know what the melting point of my batch of WWs is exactly. But hopefully I'll have time to measure this next time.

Hatch, I want a PID. If this one should happen to be defective, I'd want it replaced. If it's me operating it wrong or my other equipment not up to the task, I want to find that out and correct it.

I would still appreciate any thoughts or suggestions.

[HATCH]

He has a type 2 unit with two probes.
I am having him swap probes and test it.
Then a second test is to hook up the factory thermostat. Plug the pot directly into the wall.
Have the PID powered up but only using it for measurements.
Do some casting with the factory thermostat and see wha the temps do


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[Mike W1]

Have only used 3 other brands of PID and ASSUME autotune on this brand would be very similar. In order for the PV to match up with the SV the unit has to go through 3 or 4 cycles. It'll overshoot the high and power to the pot will go off for awhile until the pot cools down below SV. Then power will again be applied till you get up near the SV and it'll shut off going back down. 3 or 4 cycles of this and the PID will determine the settings of P, I, and D which determine the actual length of time the PID needs to apply power to the pot in order to keep PV close as possible to set value.

When I've set mine somewhere around a PV of 20-30° below SV just press the AT button, let it go through the cycles until the AT lamp goes out. Then you're good for that paticular setup. You could record those P, I & D figures for future use if you run different loads and merely reinsert them for the one without going thru the AT process again. Those heating cooling cycles can take several minutes. The blinking rates of the AT lamp, BTW, don't mean much to us casters. You want it to come on of course, but have to wait until the lamps is out before you are autotuned and those up/down cycles have been all completed.