RepackboxLee PrecisionWidenersRotoMetals2
Reloading EverythingMidSouth Shooters SupplyLoad DataInline Fabrication
Titan Reloading
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 71

Thread: Oh no !!! First PPb Shots Fired !!!

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy FarNorth45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    South Central Alaska
    Posts
    151

    Oh no !!! First PPb Shots Fired !!!

    Ok today was first paper patch day . 6 shots 80gr off the 2f .... shots all over the board at 150 yrds . Inspect bore and had leading issues .
    Cleaned bore and pulled the bullets in the next 81gr load . I thought i did not wrap far enough up the ogive . Discovered that i had taper crimped to much and the paper tore off at the crimp and the bullet had a crimp grove .
    Replaced bullets and made sure taper crimp was just right . Fired group and it was better , but still wild . Checked bore and found more lead . Cleaned again !! And i was cleaning between each shot with 2 wets and 2 drys by the way!!
    Loaded 5 more rounds with 82 grs , wrapped new bullets further up ogive and sent them down range . I am now on the right path . Not yet there , but i feel good about it at least grouping at 150yrds . Checked bore ?? Free of lead and clean

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Resized_20210103_161941.jpg 
Views:	47 
Size:	47.1 KB 
ID:	274599
    I checked outside the window , i actually had nice confetti laying everywhere..... i didn't on previous groups . Them little specs are paper lol

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Resized_20210103_161354.jpg 
Views:	52 
Size:	7.1 KB 
ID:	274600

    After wrapping further up the ogive , this is what the base looks like... should i cover the base more ?
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Resized_20210103_165051.jpg 
Views:	71 
Size:	22.3 KB 
ID:	274601

    Man i make longbows ,arrows aand knap arrow heads .... this just fits right in and i cant see me shooting GG again through the Shiloh lol .
    I expect to see group tighten up with more powder and compression. I know using Goex , 530gr lyman Postell i was getting the best groups with 71grs compressed to .623 ..
    I'm so addicted now !!! lol

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy FarNorth45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    South Central Alaska
    Posts
    151
    I also want to say Thanks to all you guys for sharing knowledge time after time . I hate to name anybody because there are quite a few of you guys that contribute and shorten the learning curve for all of us newbies......
    Hopefully we can get better and help others on down the line also . We all gotta try to keep the old ways going !!!!

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Northeast WI
    Posts
    206
    FarNorth,

    Your fold over on the base looks just fine. I don't get to worried about the amount fold over as long as there is at least a spot of exposed lead in the middle.

    I may have missed a few things but I don't know what bullet your using, what alloy or what kind of wad. I can assume it's a .45-70, which is what shoot for Creedmoor matches. I find that Goex 2f like 3/16" to something around 1/4" compression, if that's what you're burning. The paper can make a difference too, but the fit of the bullet to the bore of your rifle is very important for target loads. I recently opened up a new mold .0015", from .4305 to .432" and that got rid of the outliers completely. This is in a .44 caliber, but I've done the same with my .45-70 too. Fit is very important. I patch my bore diameter pp bullets about .020" below the start of the ogive. That seems to be a good spot for accuracy and I never have any leading, but each rifle is different and you'll find what works best in yours.

    What kind of paper are you using? What diameter are your bullets before patching?

    I first started shooting paper patch bullets for competition about 2008 and in 2010 I gave up on grease groove bullets and never looked back. Once it was working there just wasn't anyway I could consider going back to greasers.

    Keep at it and in the end you'll be amazed how simple it is to load and shoot accurate paper patch loads.
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

    Black powder paper patching is a journey, enjoy the ride!

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy FarNorth45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    South Central Alaska
    Posts
    151
    Thanks Distant Thunder.
    Sorry i had made some other posts and wasn't even thinking about posting specs..... i was too excited ha!ha
    The rifle is a Shiloh Hartford 45-70 , 32" bull barrel with a 1in 18 twist . Bullet is a Baco Elliptical 530gr .443 cast from some wheel weight alloy , pure and tin to a bhn of 10.5 wrapped with 9# onion skin paper . The bullet pushes in with just slight thumb pressure, i can feel in just slipping into the bore and i can push it back out with very little pressure and the paper is imprinted but just slightly .
    Powder is Goex 2f , its the only black powder in Alaska , so its the only choice .
    Next is a .030 veggi wad compressed down to .200 , bullet hand seated and just enough taper crimp to hold the bullet but can still be pulled out easily.
    Today's temp was 4°f and snowing lol i think the group could've been even better but i was getting excited when i seen it pulling together lol
    I think with 10.5 alloy it was bumping up more and i had to wrap further up than i had planned ?? Maybe i need to mix up some 16:1 alloy ..... but to be honest i was pretty happy just getting a good starting group 15 shots in ha!ha
    Last edited by FarNorth45; 01-04-2021 at 01:37 AM.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,941
    I would recommend trying a 0.060" LDPE wad instead of the vegetable wad. They've always sealed the bore better for me and resulted in better groups. Seating shallower 0.1" would probably improve things too.

    Chris.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    829
    FarNorth45, don't know if this will help but when taper crimping paper patch in my 45-110 I put just enough crimp to hold the bullet in place when inverted and shaken. The bullet is actually a little "wobbly" in the case and can be turned with my fingers but won't fall out. Putting five shots into a ragged hole at 100 yards I at least know it isn't hurting anything. That was also wiping between shots like you do. The open center of the patch on the base is pretty much like mine also, only shooting will tell. Crack on!

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Northeast WI
    Posts
    206
    I love the Hartfords!

    Chris is absolutely correct about the .060 LDPE wad and especially with bore diameter pp bullets. They just seal better at that critical time that the bullet is bumping up and engraving.
    Shallower seating would probably help, though I am learning that is is not always the only way to get good accuracy.

    That bullet might be just a tad too long if you were going to try and push it to 1000 yards in a .45-70. It needs all the velocity you can give it when fired from an 18-twist.

    You should be able to recover some of your bullets in the spring if you fire them into a snowbank. They will be almost undamaged and can tell you a lot about your load and alloy. Like how far forward they are bumping up and how your patch is holding up.

    Goex 2f can preform pretty well, but there are some powders that might be better. I'd go with what you have and get that to work the best you can, you might be surprised how well that will be.

    What primer are you using?

    It sounds like your bullet fits pretty well. I do like mine to be snug in the bore, but you have to be able to push it in without breaking your thumb! You'll know if it's too snug. Don't ask how I know that. If it's even a bit too loose you may see core groups that are really good but have 1 or 2 outliers that are maybe an inch or so out the core group. Then a bullet that cast just a touch bigger can clean those up very well. I just did that with my .44-77 by increasing my bullet diameter from .4305" to .432". Big difference in my groups!

    Some people have good luck with bullets that are patched to .001 to .002" under bore diameter. I never have had that work as well as a bullet patched to the bore diameter, but it's a fine line between perfect and too big. That's where a push through sizing die can help. I actually prefer to patch to about .001" over bore and then size to bore diameter. It just seems to work best for me. Remember each rifle is different and you need to left your rifle tell what it wants.
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

    Black powder paper patching is a journey, enjoy the ride!

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Northeast WI
    Posts
    206
    As for the taper crimp, Don has it exactly right. You don't really want to even mark the paper and certainly not the lead.

    Reducing the mouth of the case like Don described has always improved accuracy with bore diameter pp for me. I think a neck sizing die is a better way to go than taper crimping, but only because it reduces the diameter without closing it up beyond a certain size and must be match to the patched diameter of the bullet. Taper crimping is somewhat dependent on case length and a case just a little bit longer made close up too tight and damage the patch. Neck sizing, when done right reduces the inside diameter as a straight section of the case. It's usually only necessary to go about 1/8" deep with the sizing so it's not over working the case like FL sizing would do and won't require annealing as often.
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

    Black powder paper patching is a journey, enjoy the ride!

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    829
    Thank you Jim, I failed to mention the neck sizing die which allows the judicious use of the taper crimp.

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Northwest Ohio
    Posts
    14,455
    Since the PP bullet is smaller than what the dies are set up to load you dont get any tension. The bushing die will allow you to adjust for this. Using a 45 colt or acp die to neck size may also help.

    A 45 cal PP is around ,450-.451 dia not the .458-.459 most greasers are. The acp sizing die set way high should take the mouth and needed length down to .449-.450 or even a little larger depending how far you run it in.

    A 30-06 or 308 sizing die might allow this to be applied with the bullet seated on the body taper of the die.

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy FarNorth45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    South Central Alaska
    Posts
    151
    Thanks Distant Thunder , Gunlaker , Don Purcell and Country Gent ... i really appreciate all the help !!!
    Distant Thunder i am using Winchester Large Rifle Magnum primers .
    Thanks again Guys !
    I have some .025 LPDE plastic , by not any .060 , but i will order some if i can't find any around ..... HDPE is everywhere ha!
    I will also reduce my seating depth to .1 and give that a go .
    I have 45-70 neck sizers as well as 45colt and 45acp dies .... so i will get that set up also
    I just got off work , it's snowing again ...... so i need to move snow and cast some more bullets lol. I will re-read everything again when i get done and make sure i didn't miss anything or anyone .
    Once again i really appreciate each one of you Guys taking the time to help a guy out !
    Pat ,
    Aka Far North
    P.S Snow is cool at first , but after a few months i'm over it lol!!!

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy FarNorth45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    South Central Alaska
    Posts
    151
    Thanks Distant Thunder , Gunlaker , Don Purcell and Country Gent ... i really appreciate all the help !!!
    Distant Thunder i am using Winchester Large Rifle Magnum primers .
    Thanks again Guys !
    I have some .025 LPDE plastic , by not any .060 , but i will order some if i can't find any around ..... HDPE is everywhere ha!
    I will also reduce my seating depth to .1 and give that a go .
    I have 45-70 neck sizers as well as 45colt and 45acp dies .... so i will get that set up also
    I just got off work , it's snowing again ...... so i need to move snow and cast some more bullets lol. I will re-read everything again when i get done and make sure i didn't miss anything or anyone .
    Once again i really appreciate each one of you Guys taking the time to help a guy out !
    Pat ,
    Aka Far North
    P.S Snow is cool at first , but after a few months i'm over it lol!!!

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy FarNorth45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    South Central Alaska
    Posts
    151
    Not sure how i managed to post that twice lol.
    So i did Mic my bullet tonight wrapped it is .4497 and my bore is .450 that should be decent to start with . To be honest i had not checked until tonight, i just went by feel and it felt nice !
    I am planning to take it out to 1,000yrds , so i may end up having to change bullets .... but i'll see what i can do with it first , my wife would give me the evil eye if i said i need a new mold ha!ha . But i can't blame her because im also on a list for a new puppy !!!
    Anyway i also checked my lyman short neck sizer and it should work , it will go down to .445
    Are you guys just buy .060 LDPE , or finding containers or something?

  14. #14
    Boolit Man
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Northwestern Wisconsin
    Posts
    80
    Quote Originally Posted by Distant Thunder View Post
    As for the taper crimp, Don has it exactly right. You don't really want to even mark the paper and certainly not the lead.

    Reducing the mouth of the case like Don described has always improved accuracy with bore diameter pp for me. I think a neck sizing die is a better way to go than taper crimping, but only because it reduces the diameter without closing it up beyond a certain size and must be match to the patched diameter of the bullet. Taper crimping is somewhat dependent on case length and a case just a little bit longer made close up too tight and damage the patch. Neck sizing, when done right reduces the inside diameter as a straight section of the case. It's usually only necessary to go about 1/8" deep with the sizing so it's not over working the case like FL sizing would do and won't require annealing as often.
    Just to confirm what I think I’m getting here. You’re running the loaded round into the neck sizing die a little ways to provide enough tension to hold the bullet?
    JKR

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,941
    I used to buy my 0.060" LDPE wads pre-cut from Buffalo Arms, but now, for my paper patch loads I cut them myself on a Fred Cornell press mounted wad punch. I do get the 0.060" LDPE sheets from Buffalo Arms, but you can get them in lots of places.

    Chris.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,577
    CG,

    With all do respect a bushing crimp die is not the ideal thing to use for a PP bullet loaded in a case fired from a standard chamber. You might just as well use a roll crimp.
    Bushing dies are not tapered enough on the inlet and this could make an eccentric reduction taking it down to the bore diameter PP bullet.
    Do what Don and Jim mentioned and use a taper crimp or a short neck sizing die in my opinion is the only way to get a proper concentric taper on the case neck holding the bullet centered with the least amount of run out.
    A rifle chambered for exclusive use of the PP bullet you don't have to resize the case necks.
    I have a bushing die and I was never satisfied using them even reworking the bushing for a longer taper to keep the runout to a minimum. Use a short neck or taper crimp sizing die like Jim said.
    Last edited by Lead pot; 01-05-2021 at 03:26 PM.

  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Northeast WI
    Posts
    206
    "Just to confirm what I think I’m getting here. You’re running the loaded round into the neck sizing die a little ways to provide enough tension to hold the bullet?"

    JKR,

    Yes. After I have started my .060" LDPE wad it the case mouth and then compressed it to the proper depth in my compression die I just set the patched bullet, which is pretty loose at this point, in the case mouth and then run the entire cartridge up into my neck sizing die which is set to size only about 1/8" of the neck with the bullet in place.

    The only BPCR with a standard grease groove chamber I am currently loading straight bore diameter pp bullets for is my .44-77 and the parched bullets for it are sized to .438" after patching, which is the actual bore size. I have not checked the ID of my neck sized cases but the bullet fits perfect. I can pull a bullet easily with my fingers then reseat it the same way and, with care, I won't damage the patch. I can lift the cartridge out of my ammo box by just the bullet without losing the case. The bullet still wobbles around in the case with only an 1/8" sized and that allows the snug fit in the bore to align the bullet concentric to the bore. That is the main reason for the shallow seating, it puts a maximum length of the snug fitting bullet to be up into the bore in perfect alignment. The only way to get more of the bullet into the bore is breech seating, which is also very accurate, but is a much slower process than fixed ammo.

    With one other rifle, at .45-70, I use bore diameter bullets but it has a special tight paper patch chamber that will only accept a bullet that is no bigger than .451" and it is very accurate out to 1000 yards. Then in my .40-65 I use a 2-diameter pp bullet with a base diameter that is groove diameter +.001" to fit the .400" long freebore that rifle has. That is currently my must accurate rifle, but my .44-77 is gaining ground on it.

    All three of these rifles will pretty much on demand shoot 10-shot groups at 200 meters that are under 3" and my .40-65 can put 10 in under 2". This is with a scope, my eyes are at least as old as I am and I just can't see with irons like I once did. Once you get down to that 2 1/2" mark the gains are small enough that it hard to tell the day to day variations from the progress of reducing group size. It takes a lot of groups to prove it out.

    While paper patching is a little more time consuming than greasers, it IS NOT any more difficult. It is very much misunderstood due to all the misinformation that is on the web and people who know little to nothing about it that keep repeating the lies. The loads I assemble are so easy to put together that for it to be any easier they would have to load themselves! With a bit of attention to a few details and reasonable care in assembling the the loads it is as simple as clean and prep the cases, prime, weigh and drop tube the powder, seat the wad and compress, seat the patched bullet and neck size then just go and shoot well!

    Probably the biggest things are choosing the right bullet and by that I mean the right diameter and length but also a good design cast of an alloy like 16:1. Then using a good paper that fits your bullet to your bore and is not over about .002" thickness. A high cotton content seems to help too. Thicker paper can work but is probably not the best, too thin I find much harder to work with, but my fingers are old like my eyes. Then I would say next is use a .060" LDPE wad, they always seem to be the best for me. I will say that my .45-90 Shiloh liked the .060" HDPE wads a bit better. Possibly due to the 105 grains of powder it burned.

    The thing with the wad and bore diameter pp bullets is that you really need a wad that will seat the freebore, leade and grooves of the rifle during that critical time your undersize bullet is transitioning through these different diameter as it is also bumping up to groove diameter. No other wad that I've found does that as well as a .060" LDPE. If you get any gas cutting at all it will start in this transition area and it will destroy accuracy and quite probably lead your barrel up badly. A hard lessoned I have learned!

    A good design for a bore diameter paper patch bullet is one that the length is just a bit below what the rifling will stabilize well. In an 18-twist .45 for example that will be a bullet about 1.430" to 1.440" long. You can get by with slightly longer bullets out to 600 and even 800 yards, but you will have trouble in any headwind or twitchy winds beyond that.

    The nose design should be such that it is no more than 45% of the OAL bullet length. In the .45 caliber example that means a nose no longer than .648". And 40% might be a bit better. The nose should not be overly slender and or pointed. A nose radius of 1/3 of caliber is what I like. A long slender nose will shift the center of gravity farther back and make it easier for the air pressure and headwinds to push the nose off the flight path and can cause the bullet to wobble. That is NOT good.

    Also if the nose is long and slender and the alloy is too soft for the velocity the bullet is shot at there is the possibility that the nose will setback and slump off center causing fliers. Adding a small amount antimony to the alloy will help reduce nose setback and a slightly more blunt nose is less likely to slump off center.

    These are the facts, as I understand them, of shooting in the transonic zone with cast lead bullets and that is where we are, 1346 fps to 897 fps. Small gains can be made with higher velocities but black powder does not allow for much over about 1450 fps with bullets heavy enough to carry to 1000 yards.

    This all applies to any BPCR caliber, I used .45 caliber as an example because it is the most popular.

    The most common mistake I see is shooters using a bullet that is at or above the length their twist will optimally stabilize. Or they are shooting an alloy that is too soft for the velocity and design of their bullet.

    Other than that it's a matter of good, organized load development and keeping good notes helps a bunch. Change one thing at a time and retest to prove out what's working, then change another thing and repeat until you find the most accurate load over time. After that it's all shooter and trigger time makes better shooters.

    The preceding is what I have learned, much of it the hard way, over the past 30 years and is based on my experiences, research and input from other shooters who were kind enough to help me out. I am indebted to all of them. I pass it along as freely as it was given to me, you can follow it or not. There are others who do it differently and are successful. Good luck to you all.
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

    Black powder paper patching is a journey, enjoy the ride!

  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Northeast WI
    Posts
    206
    Kurt,

    Thank you for explaining that better than I did!
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

    Black powder paper patching is a journey, enjoy the ride!

  19. #19
    Boolit Man
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Northwestern Wisconsin
    Posts
    80
    Thank you for the explanation. I haven’t started paper patching yet. I just got the Paul Mathews book. Are there any others you’d recommend?
    I’m very impressed by your scope group size. My groups at 115 yards are averaging about 2 1/4”for 10 shots with aperture sights front and rear. I’m thinking I should probably request scope blocks on my new rifle order. I still see pretty well but I am getting a little long in the tooth!
    JKR

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Northeast WI
    Posts
    206
    JKR,

    I only mentioned the group sizes to show that what I'm doing is working for me. It does not seem to work for everyone, but I don't know for sure what anyone else does or how close they follow what I've offered. And I'm not the only one who does it this way, I know of a number of other shooters doing pretty much the same with similar results.

    Mathews' book has some very useful information in it, I've had my copy for many, many years and have worn it out from reading it. He writes about both black powder paper patching and smokeless. Early on I had trouble separating the two totally different types of shooting, in particular the requirements with regard to bullet diameter. It took me time to grasp the concept of "bore" diameter bullets and how they work. It seems so simple to me now that I have no idea why it was hard for me to get 30 years ago, but it was.

    LOADING AND SHOOTING PAPER PATCHED BULLETS - A BEGINNER'S GUIDE by Randolph S. Wright is a very good reference book with a lot of illustrations which are helpful to someone like me. He does a good job of covering the basics of paper patching with black powder in a organized way. It is a good book for anyone new to black powder paper patching.

    For some reason I can still see reasonably well with iron sights on my 34" Hepburn that I use for Creedmoor matches. The problem I started to have about 3 or 4 years ago is with my shorter barreled rifles. My .44-77 has a 30" barrel and my .40-65 has a 31" barrel. I have an astigmatism and have always had trouble in bright light with irons, but starting last year I've been having trouble on darker days with the shorter barrels.

    At my last long range match last year, all at 1000 yards, on the second day it was very dark in the morning and I was trying out my "new" .44-77 Shiloh with iron sights. I could not even find anything down range that looked like a target while looking through the sights! NOTHING! I had brought the scope along at the last minute and in desperation I pulled the tang sight off the rifle and put the scope on. With no sight sightings beyond 600 yards I did some quick math using the sight setting from the first day with that rifle and load, I dialed in what my math said and fired a shot from 1000 yards. When the target came back up it was a 7 at 12 o'clock. I had plenty of other problems with the new rifle and my load so the match was mostly a learning experience. On the plus side I got sight settings for 1000 yards with both iron sights and scope! The only real advantage with a scope in a Creedmoor match is being able to see the target and the number boards. The match winner will still be the guy who makes the most correct calls on the conditions, breaks good shots and keeps his head out of his butt, a scope by itself won't put your shots in the 10 and X-ring for you.
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

    Black powder paper patching is a journey, enjoy the ride!

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check