My Indian Musket

[Thundermaker]

Can somebody pick up that phone?....'Cause I called it (in my third post). I should have started a betting pool.

I could do a dozen repeated conscientious bbl proofings and still would never trust a muzzleloader built of dubious materials in a third world manufacturing environment.

There are a lot of assumptions and a little bit of disingenuousness in that statement. The material is listed. You can look up the specs on it. As far as "third world conditions" go. Does that mean you wouldn't trust one of those insanely expensive rifles made by American makers using 1700s technology? Do you know what the Indian manufacturing process looks like? In the end, I guess it doesn't matter, because you prefaced the statement by saying that nothing will change your mind.

How many double load proofs will any bbl survive before fracturing? With a good bbl, that would never. Could an offshore bbl survive 100 or 1000 proofings?

So you know for a fact that an American or Italian barrel will withstand 1000 double load proofs? I'd love to see documentation. Italian barrels are proofed 1-3 times with a load that is 30% higher than normal, not double. American barrels aren't proofed at all, at least not as a requirement. My load was far in excess of even double the CIP load for the bore size. How many of those would be sufficient to declare the gun safe? If I did 100, you'd demand 200. If 1000, you'd want 2000. That goalpost can be moved into infinity, because you've already said that nothing will be sufficient.

The material errors of such offshore firearms are going to be far greater than with a firearm built with American manufactured materials of the highest order.

Why, because Americans are infallible, and Indians can't make anything decent? Ford motor company must not have gotten the memo. Have you seen metallurgical analysis on Indian barrels?

Everything in your post is speculation and assumption, and all of your arguments can be leveled against any manufacturer. What if Pedersoli got a bad batch of steel one week? What if the machine at Colerain cut some threads wrong, and they had a new QC guy on the job that day? Yeah, it passed proof, but what if the barrel can only handle 27,592 rounds, and number 27,593 blows it up? I guess we should destroy all our guns and take up a safer hobby, like knitting. The "what if" game can go on forever, unless you're suggesting that people of European descent don't make mistakes.

You could have saved a lot of time by just typing, "It's bad 'cause India!". That's essentially what it all amounts to, unless you have some data.

If you want to debate this stuff, please start another thread. This one isn't here for that purpose.

[rfd]

Can somebody pick up that phone?....'Cause I called it (in my third post). I should have started a betting pool.



There are a lot of assumptions and a little bit of disingenuousness in that statement. The material is listed. You can look up the specs on it. As far as "third world conditions" go. Does that mean you wouldn't trust one of those insanely expensive rifles made by American makers using 1700s technology? Do you know what the Indian manufacturing process looks like? In the end, I guess it doesn't matter, because you prefaced the statement by saying that nothing will change your mind.



So you know for a fact that an American or Italian barrel will withstand 1000 double load proofs? I'd love to see documentation. Italian barrels are proofed 1-3 times with a load that is 30% higher than normal, not double. American barrels aren't proofed at all, at least not as a requirement. My load was far in excess of even double the CIP load for the bore size. How many of those would be sufficient to declare the gun safe. If I did 100, you'd demand 200. If 1000, you'd want 2000. That goalpost can be moved into infinity, because you've already said that nothing will be sufficient.



Why, because Americans are infallible, and Indians can't make anything decent? Ford motor company must not have gotten the memo. Have you seen metallurgical analysis on Indian barrels?

Everything in your post is speculation and assumption, and all of your arguments can be leveled against any manufacturer. What if Pedersoli got a bad batch of steel one week? What if the machine at Colerain cut some threads wrong, and they had a new QC guy on the job that day? Yeah, it passed proof, but what if the barrel can only handle 27,592 rounds, and number 27,593 blows it up? I guess we should destroy all our guns and take up a safer hobby, like knitting. The "what if" game can go on forever, unless you're suggesting that people of European descent don't make mistakes.

You could have saved a lot of time by just typing, "It's bad 'cause India!". That's essentially what it all amounts to, unless you have some data.

If you want to debate this stuff, please start another thread. This one isn't here for that purpose.

I refuse to trust my life to third world country firearms. Period. That you do is your concern and clearly none of mine. However, there are newbies reading your comments and without some form of "rebuttal" never get to know or hear the "other side" from people who've been steeped in black powder firearms for well over six decades. My point is, don't cheap out on any firearm, particularly traditional muzzleloaders. Enjoy your Indian musket.

[Thundermaker]

I refuse to trust my life to third world country firearms. Period. That you do is your concern and clearly none of mine. However, there are newbies reading your comments and without some form of "rebuttal" never get to know or hear the "other side" from people who've been steeped in black powder firearms for well over six decades. My point is, don't cheap out on any firearm, particularly traditional muzzleloaders. Enjoy your Indian musket.

There are no "sides" here. I'm documenting my experiences with my one gun.

You have presented no data or experience for your "side", just your opinions. In the absence of data or experience, it doesn't matter if you've been in it for seven decades, and I'm getting really tired of that copout. I know a man who has been reloading for thirty years. He blew up his third gun last year with his handloads. Doing something for a long time doesn't mean you know everything about it.

As for newbies, I wouldn't recommend one of these for them. I've had to do some work to it to get it running, and it requires some mechanical aptitude and skill with tools. I had an idea of what I was in for when I bought it, and I decided that it was preferable to paying $1400 for a smoothbore. A newbie should probably get a traditions flintlock rifle or something. I specifically wanted a smoothbore.

[missionary5155]

Good morning Thunder...
I gave 3 years 22 days of my young life so you "Can do as you do". Keep at it and whether anyone else says so I will defend your right to do so as you please I beleive in "dangerous Freedom".
I appreciate your attempt to document your particular flinter. I have enjoyed reading your posts.
I have been around muzzleloading most my life I was 4 when dad decided I was old enough to be around him shooting his .69s.
I built my first Kit when I got out of the "pickle suit" in 1974. Been stuffing ever since. Have read alot also.
I do understand all the "opinions" posted here and they do run the full swing of the pendulum....
But your opinion is just as good as all the others because that is what Freedom is all about.
So please keep on with the documentation of what looks to me like a smoothy that will sere you well...
Mike in LLama Land for 4 days more God willing.

[toot]

WOW! it actually ignited PYRODEX in the pan?! amazing when they say it cant happen? so I guess that TRIPPLE 7- T-777, will ignite? it is much cleaner burning than PYRODEX, and I use it in my flint lock as a main charge in front of 10 grains of BLACK, goes off evert time with out a HICCUP!! I put in the black first. clean up time is in minutes not hours.

[toot]

missionary5155, thank you for your service! I am a VIET NAM VETERAN, CLASS OF 61, RA. ALL THE WAY, REGULAR ARMY. we were all so young then, now we are in our late 70's.

[toot]

COFFEE! don't you watch TV?

[toot]

Thundermaker, COFFEE! don't you watch TV?

[Thundermaker]

WOW! it actually ignited PYRODEX in the pan?! amazing when they say it cant happen? so I guess that TRIPPLE 7- T-777, will ignite? it is much cleaner burning than PYRODEX, and I use it in my flint lock as a main charge in front of 10 grains of BLACK, goes off evert time with out a HICCUP!! I put in the black first. clean up time is in minutes not hours.

I couldn't tell you. Pyrodex is the devil, and I exercised that bottle immediately upon discovery. I only shoot the real stuff.

What I can tell you is that, as long as the flint is good and sharp, it throws large sparks that actually hang around for a noticeable period of time.

[indian joe]

I couldn't tell you. Pyrodex is the devil, and I exercised that bottle immediately upon discovery. I only shoot the real stuff.

What I can tell you is that, as long as the flint is good and sharp, it throws large sparks that actually hang around for a noticeable period of time.

This is interesting for a number of reasons
1)My son has been shooting a little indian (percussion) smoothbore for fifteen years or so
2) that repro sounds like it didnt cost you much more than a replacement lock
3)I would have no trouble finding you several (ten maybe) smoothy barrels built from hydraulic tube that have done quite a deal of work without incident
4) Proof testing of every firearm has never made sense too me and I always seriously doubted whether they even did it - test an example till it blows up - yeah - that way you know the design and the manufacturing process is good but I would rather not have my new purchase subjected to a double or triple overload before they shipped it. metal fatigue is the term that comes to mind
5) the argument becomes a bit academic when US manufacturers dont proof their stuff at all and that is ok but unproofed imports are automatically suspect classed as junk - a bit of due diligence and some common sense required here.

[Steppenwolf]

Congrats on your musket. I have two Indian flintlocks that I bought twenty years ago. One from Loyalist, which has worked flawlessly out of the box. One from Military History, which required a lock tuning and touch hole drilled but flawless since.

[mazo kid]

Thanks for posting your journey with the Indian-made gun. I bought a blunderbuss on eBay (yes, that long ago) for $345.00; I drilled the vent and hardened the frizzen. I also made a sling, swivel and button for it, but that was for me. Been working fine since I got it.

[toot]

mazo kid, thank you for your input on this subject.

[JSnover]

I could do a dozen repeated conscientious bbl proofings and still would never trust a muzzleloader built of dubious materials in a third world manufacturing environment. How many double load proofs will any bbl survive before fracturing? With a good bbl, that would never. Could an offshore bbl survive 100 or 1000 proofings?

Who in their right mind would even do that? I have two safes filled with guns which may or may not have been proofed. Since none have been proof-tested 1000 or even 100 times (have any of yours?), should I be suspicious of all of them?

[sghart3578]

I have been looking at an Indian made Brown Bess. For you guys that own them, what happens when I need parts for the lock? Are the parts hard to get?

I know that I have had a hard time getting Italian gun parts and they are pricey to boot. Are Indian made locks easier to support?


Steve in N CA

[Thundermaker]

I have been looking at an Indian made Brown Bess. For you guys that own them, what happens when I need parts for the lock? Are the parts hard to get?

I know that I have had a hard time getting Italian gun parts and they are pricey to boot. Are Indian made locks easier to support?


Steve in N CA

That would depend on what retailer you buy them from. I can tell you military heritage doesn't offer spares.

[sghart3578]

Thank you.

[Thundermaker]

Just a little update in the saga of the Indian musket.

Some of you will be disappointed to know that it didn't blow up.

It doesn't seem to like patched balls. Good accuracy was obtained with a .600 bare ball with 75gr of 1f. I used a paper wad to hold it all in. I won't comment on the maximum accuracy, as I had to aim underneath the paper to make hits. Once I remedy that, I'll do some real accuracy tests. I was able to keep them within a 5" horizontal spread at 25 yards. They were strung vertically, as I didn't have a consistent aiming point. If I was using it to hit man size targets on a 16th century battlefield, it'd be fine, but it won't do for hunting. The next experiment will be a .570 ball in a paper cartridge with a 100gr charge.

[Sixgun Symphony]

I don't trust third world quality control.

[Thundermaker]

I don't trust third world quality control.

Ok, then start a thread about that, because that little tidbit is useless here. If you have actual relevant information as to why you don't trust these guns, that is welcome. Otherwise, your statement amounts to, "I don't want nuthin' them thar brown people make." At least you didn't waste as much text as Rfd to say it.