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Thread: Playbook for "End times" right from the Lords lips

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy



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    Playbook for "End times" right from the Lords lips

    Jesus lays out "His" end times playbook very specifically and precisely. Sometimes folks have a hard time seeing it clearly but its all right there.


    Matthew chapter 24
    King James Version

    1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

    2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

    Above the Disciples are asking Jesus for the specific details of the rapture (the sign of his coming) and the end of the world

    4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

    5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

    7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

    8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

    9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

    10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

    11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

    12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

    13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

    Above Jesus says "When" not "Before" you see the abomination of Desolation (which happens at the half way point of Daniel's 70th week 3-1/2 years in) Now it is time to get stirred up because it is almost game time

    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

    17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

    18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

    19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

    20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    25 Behold, I have told you before.

    26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

    27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    Christ tells us not to believe any stories of secret comings, he reiterates this a few times for good reason.
    You will know when the coming of the Son of man is. Imagine Lightening filling the sky from East all the way to the West


    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    "And Then", speaking chronologically... after everything he had just finished laying out for his disciples "verses 1 - 28". Sun, moon & stars are darkened and then Christ comes in the clouds

    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Time to go home "gather together his elect (that's us) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other"

    On the other side of the coin, there will be the people that turn down salvation... there is still the last half of Daniel's 70th week (Final 3 1/2 years) the Wrath of God that is going to very rough for them. Much worst then the previous 3 1/2 years of Tribulation. DON'T be Them, Salvation is a gift and is free all you have to do is accept it.

    There it is Folks... The Lords "End Times Playbook", right from his own lips. Glory be to God

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    Amen!
    I truly believe we need to get back to basics.

    Get right with the Lord.
    Get back to the land.
    Get back to thinking like our forefathers thought.


    May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious unto you
    and give you His peace. Let all of the earth – all of His creation – worship and praise His name! Make His
    praise glorious!

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Are you saying that this passage advocates for a mid-tribulation Rapture scenario? Or perhaps for the idea that the Rapture and the Second Coming are the same event? I am not trying to be argumentative, I am simply curious?

    exile
    "There is not a single instance in history in which civil liberty was lost, and religious liberty preserved entire. If therefore we yield up our temporal property, we at the same time deliver the conscience into bondage." --John Witherspoon, The Dominion of Providence Over the Passions of Men. 1776

    "The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times." Psalm 12:6 (E.S.V.)

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile View Post
    Are you saying that this passage advocates for a mid-tribulation Rapture scenario?
    A mid-trib rapture theory is held by many but I see no way it can be true because the rapture is going to be a sudden surprise without warning, right? Thus, anyone with a functional brain will understand the seven year tribulation is happening and, from that, it would be easy to know when a mid-trib rapture must be. We're told no one can know when the rapture will happen so it follows that a known mid-trib (or a post trib) rapture can't be true!

    Or perhaps for the idea that the Rapture and the Second Coming are the same event? I am not trying to be argumentative, I am simply curious?
    That idea is also popular but, again, it can't be true.

    First, there is no reason to call the Rapture the second coming because there is no mention of Jesus coming to the ground. Instead, we will be caught up (i.e., "raptured") to join with him and we all go back to his Father's house for a "bride of Christ wedding" time, presumed to last for 7 years. If not, then the "wedding supper of the lamb" will have to be a sack lunch picnic in the air before we return to earth; I have to laff at that idea!

    Second, in order for all of the clearly written end-times prophecies to be fulfilled, the triumphant return of the King to earth must occur when all of the disasters we read about in Revelation are done, not half way through. When Jesus comes as the triumphant King riding on a white horse he will be accompanied by angels PLUS a great cloud of his witnesses (i. e., all of the resurrected and raptured believers at that time, but NOT "Jehovah Witnesses" as such). Returning believers will also be riding horses with Lord Jesus back down to the earth to begin the 1,000 year kingdom.

    So, the Rapture of the Church (Bride of Christ) can occur at any moment but, humanly speaking, the "End of the World as we know it" is still very far into the future. Both the world wide burn and the Great White Throne judgements of the damned will have to follow at least the seven years of Tribulation AND the subsequent millennial Kingdom, probably a bit more.

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy



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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    A mid-trib rapture theory is held by many but I see no way it can be true because the rapture is going to be a sudden surprise without warning, right? Wrong Thus, anyone with a functional brain will understand the seven year tribulation is happening and, from that, it would be easy to know when a mid-trib rapture must be. We're told no one can know when the rapture will happen Who are you being told by? I guess I should have posted the very next 2 verses as well ...(Matthew 24 32-33) 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. So Christ is saying just the opposite of what "you have been told" He is telling his disciples that when you see all these things know that it is near, even at the door... at the door (i.e., if you are are children of the light you will see it coming but if you are of the night... it will be a total surprise) 1Thessalonians 5: 4-5... 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. so it follows that a known mid-trib (or a post trib) rapture can't be true! Book, Chapter and Verse please? Sorry but not really interested in your feelings



    That idea is also popular but, again, it can't be true.

    First, there is no reason to call the Rapture the second coming because there is no mention of Jesus coming to the ground. Instead, we will be caught up (i.e., "raptured") to join with him and we all go back to his Father's house for a "bride of Christ wedding" time, presumed to last for 7 years. Presumed by whom? If not, then the "wedding supper of the lamb" will have to be a sack lunch picnic (cute but not biblical) in the air before we return to earth; I have to laff at that idea! Laff, as in Scoff?

    Second, in order for all of the clearly written end-times prophecies Book, Chapter and Verses please? to be fulfilled, the triumphant return of the King to earth must occur when all of the disasters we read about in Revelation are done, not half way through. When Jesus comes as the triumphant King riding on a white horse he will be accompanied by angels PLUS a great cloud of his witnesses (i. e., all of the resurrected and raptured believers at that time, but NOT "Jehovah Witnesses" as such). Returning believers will also be riding horses with Lord Jesus back down to the earth to begin the 1,000 year kingdom.

    So, the Rapture of the Church (Bride of Christ) can occur at any moment (according to you... but Christ says otherwise please re-read Matthew 24 for clarity, he gives a long list of things that will happen first so the "it can happen at any moment thing" seems counterintuitive to his teaching and parable of the fig tree...his words not mine) but, humanly speaking, the "End of the World as we know it" is still very far into the future. Both the world wide burn and the Great White Throne judgements of the damned will have to follow at least the seven years of Tribulation AND the subsequent millennial Kingdom, probably a bit more.
    Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib or Post-Trip really makes no difference to me, My destination has all ready been decided and guaranteed. Truth be told if I could pick one I would probably pick the Pre-Trib... It appears to be the easiest path (to get pulled out before all the trouble starts) but from what I can see, that is not what Christ taught.
    So I will go with the bible and not "my feelings" or doctrines of man.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    It appears that instead of the world falling apart, it may just be falling into place!
    Mull that over.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alabama358 View Post
    Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib or Post-Trip really makes no difference to me, My destination has all ready been decided and guaranteed.
    The greatest reason Christians should at least be interested in end times prophecy is that it IS prophecy, i.e., the word of God, and a LOT of his Bible is involved with that. There's nothing in prophecy about where anyone's final judgement and therefore destination might be, that's cleary covered in just a few lines by John 3:16-18.

    Paul told Timothy to "study the Bible to show yourself approved", meaning our study isn't supposed to stop after we know enough to be saved (II Tim 2:15).

    Truth be told if I could pick one I would probably pick the Pre-Trib... It appears to be the easiest path (to get pulled out before all the trouble starts)
    Pre-trib is right but not because it's comfortable. It's because the Church (the Bride of Christ) will suddenly be lifted away before the nightmares of the Tribulation begin.

    but from what I can see, that is not what Christ taught.
    Look again. Go back to what Paul told Timothy; "rightly divide the truth", including the Age of the Law vs. the Age of Grace.

    First, understand that not all of what Jesus said was to today's Church. A lot of the Lord's words were specifically directed to his Hebrew brothers and sisters under the Law and their efforts to earn God's approval rather than gaining it by Christian faith (trust) in Him as Lord but the Age of Grace didn't start until His crucifiction.

    Many well meaning Christians refuse to study what they don't understand. They often confuse themselves by ignoring the truth that Jesus lived, spoke and died under the Law of Moses, not the Age of Grace. Thus, much of what He said related to Jews who have missed what they were determined to ignore because they didn't understand it, meaning they failed to "rightly divide" or study Old Testament scripture.

    Today, we self appointed "super smart gentiles" often deal with scripture we don't understand fail and then think our childish and simplistic Biblical "milk" must be real "meat!" Many people consider themselves "wise" because of their (targeted) scriptural ignorance; but God said, through Paul (us), not to do that (Heb 5:12). Ignoring large chunks of scripture because it isn't simple to grasp wasn't wise for O.T. Jews and it isn't wise for us today.

    So I will go with the bible and not "my feelings" or doctrines of man.
    A wise position. But .... never forget you are also a man so be sure of your own doctrines.

    I try to follow Paul's instructions to actually study scripture and I refuse to let other people's feelings influence what I study. I don't have it all straight but what I have is mine. Meaning I have a scriptural basis for everything I "believe" because I know God doesn't much care what I might believe. Instead, He directs me to study and come to know the truth of what's been written, not rest in my comfortable guesses.

    Bottom line: Knowing enough scripture to be saved is the starting line for study, it's not the correct end of study. It's childishly easy for immature Christians to read and see what scripture says but few can grasp what much of it means; that's where mature Bible study comes in ... if it ever does. Ignorance of prophecy is nothing to brag about.
    Last edited by 1hole; 12-29-2020 at 01:22 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    The greatest reason Christians should at least be interested in end times prophecy is that it IS prophecy, i.e., the word of God, and a LOT of his Bible is involved with that. There's nothing in prophecy about where anyone's final judgement and therefore destination might be, that's cleary covered in just a few lines by John 3:16-18.

    Paul told Timothy to "study the Bible to show yourself approved", meaning our study isn't supposed to stop after we know enough to be saved (II Tim 2:15).



    Pre-trib is right but not because it's comfortable. It's because the Church (the Bride of Christ) will suddenly be lifted away before the nightmares of the Tribulation begin.



    Look again. Go back to what Paul told Timothy; "rightly divide the truth", including the Age of the Law vs. the Age of Grace.

    First, understand that not all of what Jesus said was to today's Church. A lot of the Lord's words were specifically directed to his Hebrew brothers and sisters under the Law and their efforts to earn God's approval rather than gaining it by Christian faith (trust) in Him as Lord but the Age of Grace didn't start until His crucifiction.

    Many well meaning Christians refuse to study what they don't understand. They often confuse themselves by ignoring the truth that Jesus lived, spoke and died under the Law of Moses, not the Age of Grace. Thus, much of what He said related to Jews who have missed what they were determined to ignore because they didn't understand it, meaning they failed to "rightly divide" or study Old Testament scripture.

    Today, we self appointed "super smart gentiles" often deal with scripture we don't understand fail and then think our childish and simplistic Biblical "milk" must be real "meat!" Many people consider themselves "wise" because of their (targeted) scriptural ignorance; but God said, through Paul (us), not to do that (Heb 5:12). Ignoring large chunks of scripture because it isn't simple to grasp wasn't wise for O.T. Jews and it isn't wise for us today.



    A wise position. But .... never forget you are also a man so be sure of your own doctrines.

    I try to follow Paul's instructions to actually study scripture and I refuse to let other people's feelings influence what I study. I don't have it all straight but what I have is mine. Meaning I have a scriptural basis for everything I "believe" because I know God doesn't much care what I might believe. Instead, He directs me to study and come to know the truth of what's been written, not rest in my comfortable guesses.

    Bottom line: Knowing enough scripture to be saved is the starting line for study, it's not the correct end of study. It's childishly easy for immature Christians to read and see what scripture says but few can grasp what much of it means; that's where mature Bible study comes in ... if it ever does. Ignorance of prophecy is nothing to brag about.
    Let us put all that aside for just a moment so that we don't get to far down in to the weeds...
    You have not directly commented on the substance of my OP Matthew 24: 1-33.

    Can you break down (with a mature bible study mindset) the substance of Matthew 24: 1-33

    Questions to answer:
    1 - Where did this take place.
    2 - When did this take place
    3 - Who was speaking and who was the audience?
    4 - What was the questions asked to Christ?
    5 - What was the answers to said questions
    6 - What is the meaning of the Fig Tree Parable?
    7 - Would you consider Matthew 24 Prophecy
    8 - In 20 words or less describe what Matthew 24 means to you

    These 8 questions are not just for 1hole but for anyone that wants to add to the discussion. Please try to stay on point (Matthew 24) without getting in to the weeds. I probably should have started the thread in this fashion

  9. #9
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alabama358 View Post
    Let us put all that aside for just a moment so that we don't get to far down in to the weeds...
    You have not directly commented on the substance of my OP Matthew 24: 1-33.

    Can you break down (with a mature bible study mindset) the substance of Matthew 24: 1-33

    Questions to answer:
    1 - Where did this take place.
    2 - When did this take place
    3 - Who was speaking and who was the audience?
    4 - What was the questions asked to Christ?
    5 - What was the answers to said questions
    6 - What is the meaning of the Fig Tree Parable?
    7 - Would you consider Matthew 24 Prophecy
    8 - In 20 words or less describe what Matthew 24 means to you

    These 8 questions are not just for 1hole but for anyone that wants to add to the discussion. Please try to stay on point (Matthew 24) without getting in to the weeds. I probably should have started the thread in this fashion

    He is speaking to the Jews about his second coming.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alabama358 View Post
    Let us put all that aside for just a moment so that we don't get to far down in to the weeds...
    You have not directly commented on the substance of my OP Matthew 24: 1-33.

    Can you break down (with a mature bible study mindset) the substance of Matthew 24: 1-33

    Questions to answer:
    1 - Where did this take place.
    2 - When did this take place
    3 - Who was speaking and who was the audience?
    4 - What was the questions asked to Christ?
    5 - What was the answers to said questions
    6 - What is the meaning of the Fig Tree Parable?
    7 - Would you consider Matthew 24 Prophecy
    8 - In 20 words or less describe what Matthew 24 means to you

    These 8 questions are not just for 1hole but for anyone that wants to add to the discussion. Please try to stay on point (Matthew 24) without getting in to the weeds. I probably should have started the thread in this fashion
    Alabama, you ask some honest and reasonable questions. But, I'm not a religious authority or author and while your questions are succinct the more than 20 word answer must properly open a very wide ranging study and that's beyond my ability. And no one, including you, would read it if I could; after all, one man's obvious weed field is another man's delicious sweet potato field hidden just below the surface! Giving an "I think ... " answer without support is nothing but personal opinion; opinions are plentiful and cheep and worth every penny they cost but they're often of little help to anyone.

    Therefore, I'm going to pick a broad view of your questions and briefly tell you what I think, and some of why but, at the end, you must find your own way to the final answers. Understand that I'm just challenging the forum to examine the scripture for more than the seemingly "obvious" surface and search it through. I believe that when we examine and understand what's written, and in the context for when and about what it was written, there will be no more jarring "contradictions" in scripture.

    Matt 24:1-33

    First, yes, that's all prophecy. It appears (to me anyway) that Jesus' verses 1-2 were spoken at a separate time from 3-33; that kind of prophecy shift in perspective is common in scripture, much of prophecy has a "near" and "far" perspective. For instance, the once "near" sacrifice of Issac was completed in full by the "far" sacrifice of Jesus, and both was on the same hill.

    I believe Matt 24:1-2 refers to the near destruction of the Jewish temple by the Romans, period.

    Then, (24:3-33) Jesus swings to the far future, after the rapture of the N.T. Church but before the start of the Tribulation. Why believe that? Well, the "abomination that causes desolation", i.e., worship of the Antichrist only happens in the newly rebuilt Jewish temple at the middle of the Tribulation.

    Then, the example of the ripening fig tree has to represent the coming fullness and completion of time (and life) as we now know it. Contrary to at least one denomination's school of thought, that completion did not even nearly occur in 70 AD, nor did much of Daniel and Revelation. So, if the Bible is true, and I think it is, it has to still lie before us and the words of Jesus in Mat 12:3-33 has to apply to his Jewish brothers during the Tribulation.

    Another reason we often "see" confusing inconsistencies in scripture is the difference between God's covenant with Abraham (the Hebrews) was NOT and is not exactly the same as his covenant with the Church no matter how hard we try to make it so. One effect of that is we born again, Holy Spirit indwelt believers (the Church) of all nations will be snatched up before the Tribulation but non-Christian Jews will not; Jesus was addressing the end-time Jews, not the Church, in the last passages of Mat 24.
    We read a lot of confusing comments about what will happen to both Jews and gentiles during the Tribulation but we, the saint's by the blood of Christ (the Church), will be exempt from those trying times.

    Trying to untwine a lot of mixed but interrelated scripture like this will get much easier if we just recognise that God's promises and future plans for the Church and the Jewish nation (the Hebrew tribe of Abraham, the unfaithful wife of the Father actually) is not exactly the same as that for the Church, i.e., the Bride of Christ.

    Now, after all that, read/think/pray about it and make your own judgements about what's meant in Matt 12.

    I gotta go, I've used up at least twice as much as my allotted 20 words!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Another reason we often "see" confusing inconsistencies in scripture is the difference between God's covenant with Abraham (the Hebrews) was NOT and is not exactly the same as his covenant with the Church no matter how hard we try to make it so. One effect of that is we born again, Holy Spirit indwelt believers (the Church) of all nations will be snatched up before the Tribulation but non-Christian Jews will not; Jesus was addressing the end-time Jews, not the Church, in the last passages of Mat 24.
    We read a lot of confusing comments about what will happen to both Jews and gentiles during the Tribulation but we, the saint's by the blood of Christ (the Church), will be exempt from those trying times.

    Trying to untwine a lot of mixed but interrelated scripture like this will get much easier if we just recognise that God's promises and future plans for the Church and the Jewish nation (the Hebrew tribe of Abraham, the unfaithful wife of the Father actually) is not exactly the same as that for the Church, i.e., the Bride of Christ.
    With all do respect my brother... I see NO confusing inconsistencies in scripture and really no confusing comments.

    I think when folks try to bend scripture to fit a certain doctrine that they have been taught... that is when they see confusing inconsistencies.

    First off, there is not 2 separate programs, 1 for the Jews/Hebrews and 1 for the Gentiles/Greek

    Romans 2:10-11 KJV

    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
    Romans 2:28-29 KJV
    28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
    Romans 10:12 KJV
    12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
    Galatians 3:28-29 KJV
    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
    29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    The above scripture (and there are many more) Clearly articulates that there is not 2 programs (one for the Jews/Hebrews and one for the Gentiles/Greeks/The Church)
    I am not sure how anyone could read the above bible passages and determine that there is going to be two raptures... one for the Church/Greek/Gentiles and one for the Jews/Hebrews unless you are trying to make it fit a particular doctrine...then one could say it is confusing.

    Where did this doctrine start?

    John Nelson Darby (18 November 1800 – 29 April 1882) was an Anglo-Irish Bible teacher, one of the influential figures among the original Plymouth Brethren and the founder of the Exclusive Brethren. He is considered to be the father of modern Dispensationalism and Futurism. Pre-tribulation rapture theology was popularized extensively in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren,[1] and further popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible.[2]
    He produced translations of the Bible in German "Elberfelder Bibel", French "Pau" Bible, Dutch New Testament, and English (finished posthumously) based on the Hebrew and Greek texts called The Holy Scriptures: A New Translation from the Original Languages by J. N. Darby. It has furthermore been translated into other languages in whole or part.
    Darby has been credited with originating the pre-tribulational rapture theory wherein Christ will suddenly remove His bride, the Church, from this world to its heavenly destiny before the judgments of the tribulation. Thus the prophetic program resumes with Israel's earthly destiny. Dispensationalist beliefs about the fate of the Jews and the re-establishment of the Kingdom of Israel put dispensationalists at the forefront of Christian Zionism, because "God is able to graft them in again,

    So for Centuries/Millennia... (1800 years or so) everyone had it wrong until John Nelson Darby and the Scofield Reference Bible straightened us out???

    At this point someone will always say you just don't understand because you are not rightly dividing the word...
    2 Timothy 2:15
    15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    And in reality they are not rightly dividing anything but are just regurgitating Darby's doctrine.
    No, thanks... I will stick to just reading my KJV bible as it is written and "God willing" with critical thinking and the help of the Holy Spirit find understanding.

    The Parable of the Fig Tree is quite simple
    Christ is saying that if you watch for everything I just laid out for you, you will know my coming is near, even at the door. (not the hour or day but at the door)
    He is most definitely not saying... it can happen at any second with no signs so don't even consider it...
    Or everything I just said is for "you only" Jews/Hebrews because I have a different program for the Greek/Gentile/Church where I am going to pull them out at the beginning of Daniel's 70th week, so all of this means nothing to them.

    So back to the original post intent... for anyone interested in End Times prophecy Matthew 24 (and many others) is a good read

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alabama358 View Post
    With all do respect my brother... I see NO confusing inconsistencies in scripture and really no confusing comments.

    I think when folks try to bend scripture to fit a certain doctrine that they have been taught... that is when they see confusing inconsistencies.

    First off, there is not 2 separate programs, 1 for the Jews/Hebrews and 1 for the Gentiles/Greek

    Romans 2:10-11 KJV

    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
    Romans 2:28-29 KJV
    28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
    Romans 10:12 KJV
    12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
    Galatians 3:28-29 KJV
    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
    29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    The above scripture (and there are many more) Clearly articulates that there is not 2 programs (one for the Jews/Hebrews and one for the Gentiles/Greeks/The Church)
    I am not sure how anyone could read the above bible passages and determine that there is going to be two raptures... one for the Church/Greek/Gentiles and one for the Jews/Hebrews unless you are trying to make it fit a particular doctrine...then one could say it is confusing.

    Where did this doctrine start?

    John Nelson Darby (18 November 1800 – 29 April 1882) was an Anglo-Irish Bible teacher, one of the influential figures among the original Plymouth Brethren and the founder of the Exclusive Brethren. He is considered to be the father of modern Dispensationalism and Futurism. Pre-tribulation rapture theology was popularized extensively in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren,[1] and further popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible.[2]
    He produced translations of the Bible in German "Elberfelder Bibel", French "Pau" Bible, Dutch New Testament, and English (finished posthumously) based on the Hebrew and Greek texts called The Holy Scriptures: A New Translation from the Original Languages by J. N. Darby. It has furthermore been translated into other languages in whole or part.
    Darby has been credited with originating the pre-tribulational rapture theory wherein Christ will suddenly remove His bride, the Church, from this world to its heavenly destiny before the judgments of the tribulation. Thus the prophetic program resumes with Israel's earthly destiny. Dispensationalist beliefs about the fate of the Jews and the re-establishment of the Kingdom of Israel put dispensationalists at the forefront of Christian Zionism, because "God is able to graft them in again,

    So for Centuries/Millennia... (1800 years or so) everyone had it wrong until John Nelson Darby and the Scofield Reference Bible straightened us out???

    At this point someone will always say you just don't understand because you are not rightly dividing the word...
    2 Timothy 2:15
    15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    And in reality they are not rightly dividing anything but are just regurgitating Darby's doctrine.
    No, thanks... I will stick to just reading my KJV bible as it is written and "God willing" with critical thinking and the help of the Holy Spirit find understanding.

    The Parable of the Fig Tree is quite simple
    Christ is saying that if you watch for everything I just laid out for you, you will know my coming is near, even at the door. (not the hour or day but at the door)
    He is most definitely not saying... it can happen at any second with no signs so don't even consider it...
    Or everything I just said is for "you only" Jews/Hebrews because I have a different program for the Greek/Gentile/Church where I am going to pull them out at the beginning of Daniel's 70th week, so all of this means nothing to them.

    So back to the original post intent... for anyone interested in End Times prophecy Matthew 24 (and many others) is a good read

    So, this not about us but end times prophecy because he is talking to the Jews and not the people saved by Grace because that has not happened yet. I divide my because it keeps me on the right track.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dannyd View Post
    So, this not about us but end times prophecy because he is talking to the Jews and not the people saved by Grace because that has not happened yet. I divide my because it keeps me on the right track.
    Galatians 3:28-29
    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
    29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    There is no "Us" and "Them"
    Do you suppose that his disciples "The Jews" that he was talking to were saved by Grace?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alabama358 View Post
    Galatians 3:28-29
    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
    29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    There is no "Us" and "Them"
    Do you suppose that his disciples "The Jews" that he was talking to were saved by Grace?
    That statement is true in the place and time: but your asking about a Matthew 24 not a Pauline Epistle. Jews are saved by grace in this age (Age of Grace), but after the Rapture everyone goes back to works for the Great Tribulation and Millennium Kingdom. Yes: there is a US and Them. The Jews are Gods People we got in because They rejected Christ; just my Good Luck. To answer the last question: No they were not saved by Grace because it had not been revealed yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dannyd View Post
    That statement is true in the place and time: but your asking about a Matthew 24 not a Pauline Epistle. Jews are saved by grace in this age (Age of Grace), but after the Rapture everyone goes back to works for the Great Tribulation and Millennium Kingdom. Yes: there is a US and Them. The Jews are Gods People we got in because They rejected Christ; just my Good Luck. To answer the last question: No they were not saved by Grace because it had not been revealed yet.
    Danny,
    I am not sure where you are coming from... you seem to be stuck on this "Age" of Grace thing.

    So I think what you are saying is that either the Jews/Hebrews before Christ were saved by Works or you are saying that none of them were saved?
    Both of which would be wrong.

    The Idea that after the rapture... all the way through the end of Christ's Millennial reign, Salvation will be based and dependent on works only is...well, never heard of that?

    The Idea that we non Hebrews "lucked out" and the only reason salvation is available to us is because the Jews rejected Christ is a false doctrine and can be easily rebuked with just a little bible reading

    We are all saved by Grace Through Faith the same way Abraham, David and the folks of the Old Testament were. (Read Romans 4)

    Ephesians 2:8-9
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alabama358 View Post
    Danny,
    I am not sure where you are coming from... you seem to be stuck on this "Age" of Grace thing.

    So I think what you are saying is that either the Jews/Hebrews before Christ were saved by Works or you are saying that none of them were saved?
    Both of which would be wrong.

    The Idea that after the rapture... all the way through the end of Christ's Millennial reign, Salvation will be based and dependent on works only is...well, never heard of that?

    The Idea that we non Hebrews "lucked out" and the only reason salvation is available to us is because the Jews rejected Christ is a false doctrine and can be easily rebuked with just a little bible reading

    We are all saved by Grace Through Faith the same way Abraham, David and the folks of the Old Testament were. (Read Romans 4)

    Ephesians 2:8-9
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    Okay, we just see it a different way and one day we will find out. But for now I will have to go with Dr. Scofield, Rev. Clarence Larkin and Dr. Ruckman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alabama358 View Post
    So I think what you are saying is that either the Jews/Hebrews before Christ were saved by Works or you are saying that none of them were saved?
    Both of which would be wrong.
    He said neither but by what measurement do YOU think the O.T. Hebrews thought they would be "saved"? It sure wasn't faith in a coming N.T. messiah they knew little or nothing about.

    The Idea that after the rapture... all the way through the end of Christ's Millennial reign, Salvation will be based and dependent on works only is...well, never heard of that?
    Maybe you have. Salvation by grace alone through faith alone only applies to the present age, the Church age which started when the Holy Spirit came to indwell all believers. That will end at the Rapture and revert to the Law until the Millennial age ends.

    If you disagree, check Mat 24:13 again and note that during the Tribulation salvation is conditional on individual worth. And there is no mention of a stand alone Eph 2:8-9 type salvation in the Book of Revelation.

    (And how in the world did you come up with a "two raptures" idea?)

    The Idea that we non Hebrews "lucked out" and the only reason salvation is available to us is because the Jews rejected Christ is a false doctrine and can be easily rebuked with just a little bible reading.
    Just a little O.T. Bible reading will confirm that "luck" had nothing to do with God's plans for either the Hebrews or gentiles.

    While eternal life with God (heaven) applies equally for Jews and gentiles, Paul's writings quite clearly demonstrate that God has specific responsibilities and blessings for Jews that gentiles don't share; you'll find all that well covered by the minor prophets.

    We gentiles are adopted into the spiritual family of Abraham but we DO NOT replace blood-line Jews as the apple of God's eye, not in the mortal human past or spiritual eternal future.

    My wife and I have gone through the entire Bible several times. The only way I can see how anyone else can do that, even once, and not know Jews and gentiles (outside this Church Age) are different has read it with a fixed belief that God doesn't have a special place in his heart for Jews; that simply isn't true.

    We are all saved by Grace Through Faith the same way Abraham, David and the folks of the Old Testament were. (Read Romans 4, Ephesians 2:8-9
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    Learn to "rightly divide the word" and you'll recognise that those passages refer to this age, not before or after this one.
    Last edited by 1hole; 01-05-2021 at 05:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post

    Learn to "rightly divide the word" and you'll recognise that those passages refer to this age, not before or after this one.
    Back to the "Rightly divide the word" fail safe to defend you position... ok

    Lets see if we can move out of the weeds (or sweet potato field) and "rightly divide the word" and get some clarity.

    If you had to hang your hat on just bible verses without commentary or rhetoric, what is your top 3 or more (verse or verses) to defend the (190 year old John Nelson Darby) position that there is going to be a separate secret rapture of the Church before the first seal is cracked in Revelation? Surely such a monumental event will have at least 3 VERY clear and concise irrefutable verses

    Just stand alone Bible-Verses/Scripture and no Dispensationalism "age of this" and "age of that" rhetoric

    1.
    2.
    3.

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    All this discussion is BS. The world is going to Hell in a 'hand basket' and the only real task God has given me is to plant the seed into as many as possible for their salvation. Churches have been steering away from this task for a LONG time, focused on other 'issues'. Really going to get hit with 'diversity' now from the pulpit and Gov. Jesus will come back when the 'Light' of the world is pretty much extinguished. Just getting closer these days. Lots of pain and suffering to come to us in the near future. Not much different from the Israelites in Egypt or middle east or Europe. Advice to survive? Don't buy anything but necessities, pay as little taxes as you can -Gov. will steal it anyway.
    Why the Israelites were in Egypt anyway - God said 'you did wrong' and will be there for 400 yrs. They could (?) have left before they became slaves. Why not?
    Whatever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alabama358 View Post
    Jesus lays out "His" end times playbook very specifically and precisely. Sometimes folks have a hard time seeing it clearly but its all right there.


    Matthew chapter 24
    King James Version

    1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

    <snipped>

    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Time to go home "gather together his elect (that's us) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other"
    Well, to me, this whole Rapture/Tribulation issue is a bit confusing and over dramatic.
    I went and read Mathew 24 and I see that you stopped at verse 31.
    Reading beyond 31 I see:

    33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.
    34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

    So, it sounds to me that the time frame that all this was to start was in that generation.
    Since that generation is long gone, the whole point is moot.
    No?

    Another thing, if you are saved, then you are saved.
    You have the free gift of salvation.
    You have your spot reserved for you in heaven.

    Then why all of the drama about all of that Rapture/Tribulation business?
    1A - 2A = -1A

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