358156 HP for beginner?

[Idahoser]

I've got a 6-cavity 311041 coming via a Group Buy, but I haven't got any other equipment yet and I actually shoot a lot more .357.

I've decided the 358156 HP is what I'd like to start with, but I'd like opinions on the choice.

I also haven't been able to find any place to get a mold for this boolit. I'd guess a 2 or 4 cavity would be best for a beginner?

You'll probably want to know what I want to use it for... well, target for now. I have a Win 94 Ranger Compact, a Rossi 92 SRC (both 16" barrels) and I probably won't use it for cast boolits, but I also have a S&W 60LS 2".

I don't hunt, but would like to. I keep them available for defense. We get to the outdoor range infrequently and the indoor range is only good to 25 yds.

I am just starting reloading. I bought some Hornady 158gr FP/XTP bullets to play with, I'll probably use H110 since Lil Gun data doesn't seem to be published yet (and I only care because people seem to like it but I don't understand why yet). I have a Lee Loader so far, but am planning on the Anniversary kit and probably a hand press as well.

I have the '04 Hodgdon Annual Manual, and just got the Lyman 48th and Cast Bullet Handbook 3rd.

I don't yet have a scale, and H110 isn't listed for the scoop with the Lee Loader, so rather than buy two kinds of powder right off, I may wait for the Anniversary kit which comes with a scale. I don't have Unique available at the local Bass Pro Shop though I'm sure I can find it somewhere, in case I want to start with the scoop.

So, in addition to comments on my start so far, is the 358156HP still available? From where?

[David R]

358156 HP will only come in a single cavity. Its a tricky one to start out on. I didn't vote, but If you want to shoot much, go with at least a 2 cavity or 4, or 6 so you can get some production. If you want a HP, you can use store bought for hunting or home defense. You won't be shooting hundreds of theses I hope.

Most get a single for rifle and multiple for pistol.

Waiting for my 31141 to show up too.
David

[Bret4207]

Ok, first off the HP moulds are pretty much all single cavity. I think many years ago there were some very rare and expensive mulit cavity HP designs by H+G, but I've only seen pictures and none on Ebay. If I was you and you really want to start off right, I'd figure on this- The 358156 if a great deisgn, but it's a gas check design and you haven't mentioned a sizer, which you'll need for the gas check. I'd be more inclined to go for a plain base (PB) design of 140-150 gr, maybe a SWC design like the 358156, but a PB. Lee makes some very servicable and inexpensive moulds that work fine. They are not hammers, made of steel or indestructable. Read the "Leementing" stickys in the moulds section and you'll get the idea of what to do. Or you can go to Ebay and find a design you like and bid away. RCBS and Saeco make excellant moulds, Lymans are more of a crap shoot, but usually are fine. Lee also has a product called "Lee Liquid Alox". I call it Mule Snot or Frog Snot. Call it what you will, it works within reason. Just take your boolits as they come from the mould, put 25 or 30 in a margarine dish, add a couple or 3 drops of mule snot and shake it around. Set the boolits ona strip of wax paper or newspaper to dry for a couple hours or overnight. I like to throw mine in a zip lock bag after they dry a few hours and dust them with molly powder. That way they aren't sticky. As to powder, I'd skip H110 for a while. H110 is a "magnum" powder in the 357. Magnum speed and lead boolits often lead to poor accuracy and leading in the barrel, especially with a PB boolit, unless you know how to get everything fitting up right. Check the archives here or search for anything on "leading" and "Boolit fit". I'd be much more inclined to go with a medium powder like Unique or even a fast powder like Bullseye and shoot lighter loads until I got the hang of the ins and outs of the lead boolit game. Look in your manuals and find a mid- range load that you have a scoop for with that powder. Lee scoops work fine. You just have to BE CONSISTANT! Every time you dip that scoop you have to do it the same. Don't shake it one time, strike the excess off with a card the next, and bounce the scoop on the edge the 3rd time. You can be remarkably accurate with a scoop, but you have to be consistant. Since you only have a Lee Loader so far, (The Lee Loader is about the best way to start out IMHO, many of us here did and we bear no scars), you aren't into loading sessions of thousands of rounds. That being said, a multi cavity mould isn't really needed. But if you decide later to try them, Lee's work fine and you;ll see our Group Buys section has all sorts of odd designs.

Stick with medium loads until you get the hang of casting. You can use straight wheel weights (WW) up to around 11-1200 fps with no problem. You may or may not need the GC. Depends on the load and gun. As for the HP moulds. Ebay has them. Lyman doesn't make the 35856 HP anymore. They do have their "Devastator" line of HP moulds, but I don't know if they have a 38 in the line up. When you find a HP the trick is to cast fairly hot and as soon as the sprue cools, but before you open the mould, give the HP pin a half turn. This seems to break the hold the pin has on the boolit. It's very, very slow. I have a 358156 HP and the solid version. I also have a Forster trimmer with the HP jig. IMHO, the Forster is a lot faster since I can use a 2 or 4 cav 358156 and pile the boolits up. The Forster jig will work with a power screw driver. The resulting rounds may not be as accurate as the ones from the mould as the line up is determined by how straight you line the bullet up in the cartridge, but for defensive purposes it won't matter.

I'm sure the other guys will chime in on this. God luck and enjoy yourself. Remember- this is supposed to be FUN!

[Buckshot]

................Lee makes a couple pretty good 158gr SWC's. I'm not suggesting a HP to start out with.

".............I don't have Unique available at the local Bass Pro Shop though I'm sure I can find it somewhere, in case I want to start with the scoop."

WHAT! No Unique!? Holy smoke, that's Un-American 8). You can do a whole lot more with Unique then H110 or W296 for sure.

What'er ya going to shoot that 311041 out of? If it's a 30-30 or a 30-06 you can use Unique, but you cannot use H110 or W296.

.................Buckshot

[Idahoser]

The 311041 is for a .30-30 Win 94, vintage 1971.

What spotty bit of reading I've done over the years led me to think it was surprising for the shop not to have Unique, but they are spotty in their stock of stuff as well. They have no reloading presses in stock, though there are labels where they should be. It seems they've quit caring as I guess most people are now getting that stuff online.

Where I came up with the 358156 idea was articles, I think it was Skeeter talking about the kit for "SHTF" including a tong tool (I have been looking at the 310 tool, too expensive for now) and he liked this mold for a "if you can only have one".

I do realize that like holsters, I'm going to end up with a collection... I guess I'm trying too hard for the experience level.

Thanks guys. I'll keep an eye out for a mold for 358156HP for future use in any case, and find something easier for starters. Sound okay?

I don't have sizing equipment yet, though I saw that it can be done with a 310 tool. Over time besides casting and reloading for fun and savings, one of my goals is a kit like Skeeter's where I could be self-sufficient (fun to prepare for anyway).

[versifier]

You gotta get some Unique. Simple as that. Best powder to start with for .357mag and .38spl. Plenty of time to play with others later. Buckshot's right! It's un-American for them not to stock it, damned near criminal. I have to drive at least an hour to get any real selection of powder and primers, though there's a shop about 40 minutes away that stocks most of the basics.
I'd avoid HP's until you've been casting for a while, they can be tricky and very slow to use. Try the Lee 158 SWC Gas Check, good bullet, comes in a 2 cavity and relatively inexpensive. For now, get Lee Sizing kits in .358 and .309, they come with Liquid Alox. The 310 tool won't do the job at all well. You can upgrade later to a more fancy luber/sizer if you feel the need. You'll need gas checks in .30 and .35cals, too. They get pushed onto the base and get seated in the sizing operation. Simple and easy.
The Anniversary kit is a great deal, order it with the Lee Manual, a "must have" for all the info it contains on the subject of cast bullets, handloading, and shooting in general. Two other "must haves" are a case lube pad and a loading block to hold your cases and check your powder levels between charging and seating the bullets. Case length gages and shell holders for the included trimmer are needed, too.
Lee dies are an excellent value. I'd get the 4die Deluxe set in .357mag, and the 3die Pacesetter set in .30-30. They come with shell holders, so you don't have to order any separately.
The 310 tool is an interesting and expensive antique, awkward to use, useless for effective bullet sizing, and has been obsolete for over a century. They make nice decorations on the wall of your loading room. (I have played with them out of curiosity, but spending a lot of hard earned cash on one makes about as much sense to me as hunting with a matchlock on a rainy day. Nostalgia is usually more fun to read about than it is to experience.) If you must have a hand press, go with the Lee, but you may not think too much of it after trying to size a batch of rifle cases with it. The bench mounted press has much greater leverage and is far easier to use for every loading operation, also including bullet sizing.
Anyway, good luck and keep us posted on what tools and molds you finally get and how they work out for you, your successes as well as the problems you encounter. Even though you are just starting out, we learn as much from your experiences as you can from ours.

[Idahoser]

Okay, lots of wishes and wants, but here's where I am:

I HAVE a .357 Lee Loader set.

I HAVE 3 boxes of fired .357 cases that my son and I deprimed yesterday.

I HAVE a box of 100 Hornady 158gr. FP/XTP bullets. (these do have a cavity in the nose-- did I get a mismarked box, or is this right? What does the HP look like then?)

(whether they're useful or not isn't really important to me right now... just having some bullets to load was my goal when I bought these. About $13 at Bass Pro)

I NEED primers and powder. Since Bass Pro didn't have Unique on the shelf I'll find someway to get a pound today, through discussions here and reading lots of places I agree that's the right powder for now. For one thing I can use the Lee scoop tonight, I don't yet have a scale.

So, today I will buy Unique and use .7cc which comes to 6.4gr. and

Primers... The load card that came with the Lee Loader set says "Small Pistol Primers". I'm going to assume that this specifically means "NOT MAGNUM PRIMERS". Is that a safe assumption? Bass Pro had Winchester primers, I'll get that brand.

The Lee Loader instructions says that "larger cases should be lubed". I know that carbide dies don't need lube, but I'm kinda doubting that the Lee Loader is carbide, so I don't know where .357 fits in their eyes. Would you lube?

I think I found a compatible load in one of the other manuals also, but I didn't bring the manuals to work with me so I can't verify which primer they recommended for it. It was kind of frustrating that the different books and the card rarely had a similar load listed... one would have a powder that wasn't shown in the others, etc. I guess this is both good and bad, more variety but can't cross-check for errors.

Am I making a safe assumption that a jacketed bullet of a given weight is safe to use with a load, regardless of point design? And it seems this would also be true of cast-- the load should only care about weight and whether it's jacketed or not-- the point becomes important only after leaving the barrel. Does this seem true to you?

[BABore]

One on my first moulds was a 2-cavity 358156. Got it off Ebay for $15. Got a second one a few months later for $18. I see them on there most every week.

I got mine for a 357 mag plinker. It has turned out to be the most accurate bullet I have used. Using 6.0 grs of WW231 and CCI 500's it will easily group 6 shots into 1/2" at 25 yds in my 8 3/8 686. My buddy's Security Six groups the same load just as good. Velocity ran at 1,100 fps. All bullets were ACWW and alox lubed. I would run them through a Lee 0.359 push thru sizer to check them. Followed with a second coat of alox and a dusting of motor mica. Can't get much cheaper than that. I loaded some heavier loads with 13.0 grs of 2400 with equal accuracy.

Since I to am cheap, I just got done removing the GC shanks from my second mould. I'm hoping a PB version of the 358156 will shoot as good. Anybody tried this yet?

[big uns]

Idahoser, It looks as if the other posts have you well set up. I would recommend Hornady case lube for your resizing needs. It works great and isn't messy. I like the LEE 150 gr mold for a 30/30. LEE also makes some molds in .357 but I have no experience with them. One thing about the LEE molds is they heat up fast and won't rust. Later on you will find powders like 3031,Reloder7 and 748 are better powders for the 30/30.I like the Lyman 358429 Keith style mold for my 38/357 loads. In some guns the bullet is too long. It is really for a 38 special case. I also think H110 and 296 are for Magnum loads and require Magnum pistol primers for proper ignition. Later also you will want to try Bullseye,231,2400,IMR4227 and Bluedot for your 38/357 cast bullet loads. check out www.leeprecision.com to reference their molds and presses. You will find www.midwayusa.com and www.bosesguns.com have some of the best prices for your reloading needs. PS you can get a reloading book for your specific caliber, this is a Loadbook USA, Inc book. Midway and Bosesguns sell them. Their website is www.loadbooks.com . They list most powders and most commerical jacketed bullets available for the reloader.

[45 2.1]

Since I to am cheap, I just got done removing the GC shanks from my second mould. I'm hoping a PB version of the 358156 will shoot as good. Anybody tried this yet?

I haven't, but have wondered about it for years. Please post how it turns out.

[slughammer]

Am I making a safe assumption that a jacketed bullet of a given weight is safe to use with a load, regardless of point design? And it seems this would also be true of cast-- the load should only care about weight and whether it's jacketed or not-- the point becomes important only after leaving the barrel. Does this seem true to you?

NO, the load cares about case capacity and that varies with seating depth. Many boolits/bullets are the same sytle and weight, but have the crimping grooves located differently. A better comparison would be the weight and the amount of the boolit inside the case. But sometimes a specific bullet is not listed, like the Alliant data. Alliant gives a max of 7.8gr Unique with a 158gr JSP at an OAL of 1.575 with a Fed 200 primer. This is one reason why loads are reduced and then worked up.

That said, the bullet you have is correct, the XTP FP has a hollow point. The 6.4gr load from the scoop should have no problems with that bullet in Magnum cases in the two guns discribed. Winchester small pistol primers will work just fine with that charge of unique.

[Idahoser]

I appreciate the help. I'm going to get some Unique and some Win SP primers tonight.

[versifier]

BTW, the FP on your bullets refers to the flat nose (meplat) of the bullet, safe for loading in a tubular magazine. The XTP is a hollow point (HP) design, referring to the bullets perported ability to expand rapidly in a living target (Extreme Terminal Performance).
You got it about the primers. Winchester "SP" or CCI 500 primers are fine. You can use the magnums "SPM" or CCI 550's when you get your press and priming tool. They help ignition in heavier loads.
Good Point. The Lee loader is NOT carbide and you DO need to lube. You don't need a LOT of it, just a very light coating. Get yourself that lube pad and some water-based lube when you get your powder and primers.
Yes, generally any jacketed bullet of a given weight is safe, with the published load, but NEVER with a maximum charge. ALWAYS reduce hotter loads whenever you substitute ANY components, purely for safety - the change can sometimes cause a pressure increase, not a big deal with a mild load, but it could push a max load over the safe limit. (So could shooting a load on a very hot day that you worked up on a very cold one!) Cast bullets of the same weight always generate less pressure because the softer metal causes less friction in its passage against the lands and grooves of the barrel.

[Buckshot]

.............Idahoser, I'd like to send you some Lee 358-148 WC's to shoot. Sounds as if you're on a tight budget and you mentioned a son. Don't know how old he is but both you and he might like to load some mild target/plinking ammo.

While Bullseye, Red Dot or W231 might be better powders for this, the Unique will get the job done. If you'll send me your address in a PM I'll be sure to get some of them headed your way, Monday at the latest. I've got some RCBS 38-162's (swc-gc) all lube sized (.359") and gas checked I'll include with the WC's.

That's give ya a bit of a feel for cast and you can shuck buying any of those nasty ole FLGC things

[Idahoser]

Just so nobody gets the wrong idea, I'm trying to go easy on finances but there are many folks worse off than me. I'd appreciate the bullets a lot more if you'd let me pay you in some way, either money or stuff or whatever.

Also you should know it wouldn't be the first batch, another forum member was also kind enough to send me a batch, I don't have them with me but I think they were 358429's. I'm saving those for when I have a scale and can do them justice.

My son just turned 17, he's the one pushing me to do some of this stuff now. I'm very happy to have this hobby we can do together, like our motorcycles. We do have a membership at an outdoor range but it's a long drive and we probably won't make it out there until the weather warms up some. But we have had some good days lately, if it works out we might make it one of these weekends.

I made it to Sportsman's Warehouse last night just as they closed, and MAN were we disappointed we didn't get to spend more time in there! It's a MUCH bigger store than the Bass Pro Shop. We'll have to make a special trip just to browse in there. They had a big selection of powders, manuals, etc. My wife wanted to buy the Lee Anniversary kit on the spot, but I want to wait til my C&R license comes in and see what kind of discount I can get, plus the one they had didn't have the book with it and I wanted to get that too.

I'll be mailing the C&R application today.

I did forget to get lube, but I seem to recall Hornady case lube in the Bass Pro shop, and that's on the way home. My son was all ready to start priming last night! I was sorry to decide we should wait for the lube. But that really is the last thing I think, we got the powder and primers. I don't know if he found the safety glasses, I'll pick some of those up as well.

Anyway again thanks to all of you for the help, I'll keep you posted. I've been meaning to order some of the load books offered by one of the members, but I'll keep good notes. Won't be too hard with just a scoop.

[Idahoser]

Bought a pound of Unique and the Winchester SP primers. Forgot lube.

Went back and got the little plastic tub of Hornady "Unique" lube.

Got to reading yesterday and discovered we still needed to clean the brass before sizing, so my son did that last night.

While I was at Sportsman's Warehouse I also picked up the Lee Improved Powder Measure Kit.

So now we have clean, decapped brass; bullets, primers, powder; the Lee Loader, the plastic/brass hammer I bought for sight adjusting; the lube, the safety glasses, the place to work; and we're having tuna tonight so I'll have a shallow metal container to dip powder from. Tonight we'll prime and size at least.

Looking at the scoops, a question came up and I can't find anywhere to answer, maybe you guys can help...

I don't even know if the opportunity for this to come up could happen, but would you combine several scoops to make a load?

For example, if you needed 10.0 grains of POWDERX for a max load, reduced the 10% because you're using scoops and had a 9.0gr max scooped load, and you discovered that there was no single scoop that would make exactly 9.0 but that you could achieve 9.0 exactly with a combination of two scoops, would you use both scoops to make up this load? or is that procedure discouraged?

I don't have the problem yet, just wondering.

[versifier]

Idahoser, You can "double scoop". With larger cases, it's impossible not to. I have in front of me the loads list from a set of Lee .308 dies. It says at the top "Use 3, 1cc powder measure for all loads listed below."
Another important tool you need is a playing card to even off the top of the scoop. (There's a pair of jokers in the little box that holds my accumulated collection of scoops. I don't use them very much anymore, but I often lend them out to the curious or to beginning loaders. Most Lee die sets come with them, except the RGB 2die rifle sets or single specialty dies.) One of the better points of the Lee manual from a "scooper's" standpoint is that it lists the volumetric equivalents for every load.

Powder measures are a lot more convenient to use and faster, too, once calibrated for the chosen load, but they are no more or less accurate than scoops, though you need to double check the charges they are throwing on the scale at regular intervals as you use them - adjustments can loosen, etc. They don't normally, but the potential is always there with a mechanical measure and you have to be aware of it. The only way you can overcharge with a scoop is to put too many scoops in your case. Kind of a built-in ckeck and balance.

This clearly illustrates the need for a good loading block to hold the cases, no matter how you measure your charges, so you can check them visually with a bright light before you start bullet seating. I usually charge them all at one time and then inspect the whole batch at once - you will, too, when you start cranking them out with your bench mounted press. I will post a picture of some in a little while, both commercial and home made.

I assume you and your son are going to do one round at a time. This is very good as it lets you understand each of the steps one at a time, slowly and logically. Two intelligent people double checking each other is soooo good. My grandfather used to say that "Two heads are better than one, even if one's a cabbage." Most of us start out off in a dark corner mumbling to ourselves and rereading the instructions. Intimate knowledge of each step in the process will pay dividends later as you develop your own loading habits and rhythms.

[versifier]

These are made of scrap wood - cutoffs from an oak threshold and cherry scraps from the cabinet shop - and one commercial plastic unit that's reversible to hold rifle cases or pistol cases. You can label them to keep different charge weights separate when you're testing. If you mount your powder measure on a shelf over your bench, you can drop the charges right into the cases while they're sitting in the block. You can scoop and funnel drop them more easily in a block, sometimes a three-hand job if the funnel doesn't fit the case neck well. It's very easy to see a too light or too heavy charge with a bright light (flashlight or worklight) when they're all lined up in the block for comparison.

[Beau Cassidy]

Idahoser,

Didn't they close down the Shelby county Penal Farm Range a few years ago? I thought that was really odd to leave your guns at the bench while going downrange while the inmates were back sweeping up brass. I would never take more than about 1 or 2 guns there at a time. I didn't go but a few times but the place was always packed. I guess Memphis just grew up too much around it. A lot of people didn't believe me about the range being run by the Penal Farm until I showed them the receipt where I paid. I still have one of the receipts around here somewhere.

Beau

[Idahoser]

Yes, the "Shelby Farms" range closed, but I think it was just last year. Now the only close range is MSSA, but it's going to be a few years before I can afford to be a member there. We go to Tri-Lakes range in Batesville MS, but it's a pretty good drive. The side benefit of eating at Hardees on the way home makes it a special trip anyway.

We started sizing and priming last night. I was the first to "pop" a primer, and did it twice in a row. My son was glad I was the first one to do it, we were both worried about what it was going to be like... I was surprised that noise and smell were pretty much the only way to tell, I expected some movement of some part of the equipment. I don't think I ever did that with the old set 25 years ago, I guess I was more careful then (and the plastic hammer we had then had more oomph... this one is too tiny and I was swinging harder).

Anyway it's noisy, and we're already ready to move it into the garage and talking more about a press. We didn't finish them all due to CSI: being on, so we'll get the rest done tonight and then expand the case mouths. This is the first re-load so I'm not worried about trimming yet, but I will have the Lee cutter & lock stud and the case length gage/shellholder before we've used them more than once or twice. After expanding we'll worry about powder and bullets (which we will do as a single process, charge and seat a cartridge all at one pass, so there's no possibility of getting double charges).

Glad to see the response that multiple scoops can be combined for a charge... it would limit you to only certain loads otherwise, even with pistol cases it would seem the combination would be flexible enough to give a wide range of choices, rather than having to jump straight to the next full scoop size and not being able to use the loads in between.

I've seen business cards listed to use for leveling the scoop, and now playing cards. Some other reading said to tap it level.

I kinda liked the writeup we found somewhere that said to push the bottom of the scoop into the powder so that it fills from the top (like ladling water) and then scraping the top level with a card. That writer said this provides the most consistent results, as opposed to "scooping" like ice cream which Lee seems to be recommending. They say "push the measure through the powder only once...". To me that means "like ice cream". Of course the consistency of the powder is going to determine if the "dip" method actually works or not.

Anyway the bottom line in every case seems to be, "whatever you do, just do it the same every time". Of course my measured load might be different from yours, but all of mine should be like each other.