Paper patch mold making

[NSP64]

If I wanted to make a paper patch mold what size do you make them? Say your bore is .310 and grove is .305 what size would be best for a mold?

[JeffinNZ]

I think you mean .305 bore and .310 groove.

Depends on the final patched diameter you want and the thickness of paper you intend to use.

If you want .310 final diameter and use 0.002 paper wrapped twice (0.002 x 4) and allow for a 0.001 of paper skrinkage once dry that will be 0.310 minus 0.007 for 0.303; ie: the lead 'slug' will need to be .303 in diameter.

[longbow]

The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook recommends 0.301" for standard .30 cal.

The general rule of thumb for smokeless and paper patch is to cast/size to bore diameter then patch to groove diameter or a couple thou larger.

I have had good luck with 0.301" patched to about 0.010" in my .308.

My .303 seems to like it if I knurl the boolits up to 0.304" then patch to 0.314".

I don't size after patching but many do. I'm no pro here either this is just what I have tried and it worked for me.

I am not sure of mould sources for .30 cal. other than the Lyman. They used to list 0.301" 165 gr. and a 200 gr. paper patch moulds.

I made a simple push out mould using a standard "N" reamer which is 0.302" so as cast boolits come out at about 0.301". Very simple to make if you have access to a lathe.

If your bore is 0.305" and the groove is 0.310" the rifling is very shallow so you may want to be a little under bore diameter with your boolit. I find my Marlin .44 with microgroove likes a considerably undersize boolit. The "N" reamer would be about right and you could lap the mould a little larger if necessary.

Longbow

PS: I see Jeff beat me to it here and he is right. If you decide on the paper thickness then you can work back to the starting boolit size that way.

[docone31]

The Lee molds I have respectively, drop .30cal-.301 nose. .303 British-.304 nose.
I size the lands off the lube grooves and wrap away. I have found those two to be stellar in both calibers.
Both 185gns.

[NSP64]

The above being said you want to keep it cloe to bore size, correct? I mean you couldn't patch up a 7mm (.284) boolit to use in a 30 cal could you? I figure you get the boolit too undersize you might blow the patch off?

[longbow]

I used to have an article on paper patching by Ross Seyfreid (spelling?) in which he described paper patching for not only lead boolits but "J" bullets too. I lent the magazine to someone and it didn't come home!

Anyway, if memory serves, he started out trying to use standard "J" bullets for some slightly odd British and European bore diameters so was patching to suit those bores. I seem to recall him saying that he had successfully patched from 7mm to .30 cal. as well.

He did say he had better success rolling the bullets under a coarse file to roughen up the copper jacket so the paper got better grip.

I mentioned that my .303 likes the 0.301" boolit knurled to 0.304". I am not sure if it is the diameter increase, the roughening to hold the patch or a combination but I had the impression that I was blowing the boolit through the paper patch before I knurled the boolits. The only way to be sure would be for me to make a mould that cast a 0.398" boolit and knurl it to 0.301" then see how that goes.

Since Lyman shows shallow grooves in their paper patch boolit, I am thinking it is beneficial. Many PP boolits are smooth though so...?

It may well be worth casting or buying some 7mm with lube grooves, wrap them up with something like 3 wraps of 0.004" paper which would finish them at around 0.308" and see how it goes.

The worst that is going to happen is that they aren't accurate. Either way, keep us posted!

Longbow

[NSP64]

I have a old .243 mold that I drilled up to .266 and cast some up and PPed. Loaded to the J load for 120gr load Didn't hit the 2'x2' target @ 50 yrds

[docone31]

I couldn't hit anything in front of the muzzle when I first started either
I went straight to 100yds so I could see the spread. It was impressive! I looked like an idiot at the range that day.
What does your bore slug at? I am .001-.002 over bore.
What paper are you using? I really like notebook paper, the ones with the lines.
When you sized the final wrap, what was it when you started?
My .303 British was .318-.321, I sized to .314. For that load, I use the C312/185 Lee mold. The nose is .304, my bore is .304. I use water quenched wheel weight.
For my .30s, my bore is .301, the mold is .301-.302 depending on the alloy.
My wrap is two wraps of notebook paper, resulting in .312, sized to .309.
Two factors here.
First, you have a smooth sided casting. I down size my lube lands. The patches shrink exposing the lands. In other words, I can see the impression of the lands once shrunk.
Second, I use a cigarette roller. I get some really tight wraps! I lay them down soaking, roll it, and they come out lightly damp. I believe the roller provides some stretch also to the paper.
Another consideration. I do not crimp at all.
It sounds like you have a misfit somewhere. The patch gets real hard and should not have give when fired. Perhpas the patch is not gripping?
Can you drive a casting down the bore?
I used a .30cal cylinder to slug my Smelly, used another persons specs for my .30s.
I originally got some wild, embarassing, shots the first few times. It was groove fit.
Perhaps if you tried three wraps? I did that when I found my notebook dimension with Meade Traceing Paper. I was wrapping two wraps and getting .312, three wraps gave me .3135. The three wraps got me on the paper, sizing to .314 got me in the ring.
I have found paper patching to be very forgiving. Even for me. I did everything wrong the first few times. Now, I have a reliable load that cycles from the magazine to the chamber.
I do not see why a .27cal should not do well with paper. Pdawg does well with .257.
My rifles like the heavy stuff. I would have Lee make a .27cal mold, and down size it to wrap. In other words, duplicate my .30cal results. I size to .308, and wrap to .317 and size to .309. With springback, I am getting .3095-.310. I got that start from Beemer. Works great.
I use 4895 powder, with the starting load data for jacketed.
You can do it.

[1874Sharps]

Several months ago I had Lee Precision make up a batch of 30 caliber paper patch gas check bullet molds for me. The as cast diameter is 0.301" with a standard 30 caliber gas check shank. It patches up to 0.309" and is sized to that diameter. The results out of several 30-06 rifles and a 7.5 Swiss have been quite good. The bullets chronographed at 2450-2500 fps and grouped at 1.5 MOA at 50 yards. The "boolits" are also cast semi-soft and give comparable expansion and weight retention of a copper jacketed soft nose bullet. I see no reason why this could not be done for the 303 Brit that you shoot.

[pdawg_shooter]

Cast any of the 30cal (.309/.313) size to .305/.306 and patch with 16# paper. Lube and run through a .314 die, load and shoot!

[NSP64]

After reading some more posts, I believe I need to make my mold a tad bigger so the Main body of the boolit is .002 bigger than bore. It is smaller now, and I think that was causing the bad accuracy(not cutting the paper all the way through). Back to the rolling(drawing) board.

[leftiye]

NSP64 - please let us know how that works out. I'm interested in seeing how that sizing arrangement works out. In other posts here, I've heard it works well. If you've got a mold already, and it is smooth sided, it could just be reamed out a couple of thou. from its present size (sorry, couldn't be reamed back down if it wasn't an improvement). The gas check shank (if any) would be left the same size, and would still work fine sized a couple of thou. bigger.

[leftiye]

Also, if you've got a .305 bore, and .310 groove, I'd go to a thinner (maybe tracing paper) paper to come out on the proper size OD. Closer to .310, that is. I like the idea of lubing the paper (LLA, JPW, etc) and sizing it to desired size before loading, FWIW. This can be done on patched boolits that are too big to correct the overall diameter.

[NSP64]

The rifle I'm loading for is a 270 win. The boolit mold I made for PPing drops boolits @ .266. The bore on my rifle is .2705 & groove is .2775 so.... I should ream my mold up to .2715 That way the rifleing will cut the paper. I shot some of the undersized PPed slugs last Sunday 1-4 @ 1750 fps and looked pretty good except I lost 1 somewhere. Probably paper was stuck to it.

[docone31]

Pdawg does the 25-06, the 270 should be stellar! My 30-06 loves patched loads. The heavier the better.

[NSP64]

Photo of boolits from my homemade PP mold
Attachment 10628
The three on the left are from my mold compared with the cramer B2 on the right
I converted a .243 mold. up to .270 for my 270 win.
The PP boolits weigh 130gr naked. I don't know how they will shoot being smooth sided. I may load some smooth, and some I roll across a bastard file.

[docone31]

Those look real good. We will see how they shoot.
My preference though would be the B2. I have had such luck with down sizing Lee molds in the caliber I need.
I use a cigarette roller for the calibers I wrap. I suspect, the modified mold castings, with a cigarette roller, won't need knurling. The roller wraps TIGHT.
Which ever one you wrap, with a starting load for jacketed 270, I think you will be impressed.
I know I was with my .303 British.
I could not get that rifle to hit the berm untill I patched them!
Lee can cut you a Push Thru Die pretty quickly. Even though the patch will probably come out to size, the sizing die will "harden" the patch a little.
It will be interesting to see the difference between the patched B2, and the modified mold castings.
The modified mold castings sure look strong!
Good bearing surface.

[NSP64]

I have one of these
Attachment 10629

And can't figure how to use it
Buckshot made me a .278 push through die.

[NSP64]

Holy cow I figured it out! I had been trying to turn 1 roller, you have to turn both rollers.

[docone31]

The useing is easy.
Place a boolitt in the apron, close the machine.
Observe which way the boolitt turns.
Open the machine.
Remove the boolitt.
Take a patch, dip it in water.
Soaking wet, place the tip to start on the apron, at 90* to the machine itself.
Place the boolitt on the tip of the patch with the nose just on the tip. The next end will be lower and trailing off the machine.
Close the apron, and roll it. When it is rolled, roll a few more turns and open.
Twist the tail and place in an holder.
Do the next one.
When I first started wrapping my boolitts, I started at the base.
Wrong.
Sometimes I got a wrap, sometimes the paper came back out.
The nose has to be the start.
I am not sure if direction of wrap is that important. At least I have not found it to be so with the way I do it.
The long edge of the patch will go on the ogive. The taper will go to the base. That makes a big difference in easy wrapping.
I use soaking patches in my roller. If they are damp, they do not work well for me. The roller squeegees too much water out.
Once you get the start dialed in, they go quickly.
I use the middle of the apron and rollers to do the rolling. If the paper goes in at an angle, no biggee unless it is extreme. I open the roller up, if that happens and restart.
If there are wrinkles in the wrap, the roller smoothes them really well. It makes tight wraps. Just remember, the wrap starts at the tip of the boolitt. Just lay the tip on the apron, place the boolitt, close and wrap it.
If you can make that mold, I am sure you can figuire out the roller. Take some pictures of the process, I bet there are some who are on the sidelines who might just give it a try when they see it done.
I use a plastic 9mm bullet tray from a package of 50 to set my patches to dry. Now that my airconditioner is off for the winter, they take longer than when it is on.
That looks like a good roller.
I lay the patch so the tip is just under the boolitt to be wrapped. Essentially in the middle of the roller. When I place the boolitt on the patch, it helps keep it down for closing.
After the intial learning curve, I bet you get some done in short order.
With .270 being nominal .277, .278 ought to work out. If not, a flap sander in a Dremel can open it up a tad. Try the .278 first. My .30s sing a bright song sized to .309. Good confetti, great downrange accuracy.
Lets see some wrapped up.