Barrel Harmonics and Muzzle Loaders

[GregLaROCHE]

Do the same principles apply to muzzle loaders as modern rifles? How about smooth bores? If so, does shooting with bayonets fixed make a difference in accuracy?

[John McCorkle]

Physics are still physics.

Typically it isn't discussed much because the design of traditional muzzleloader did not emphasize minute improvement that would not have likely been noticable.

The hyper tight tolerance in manufacturing, incredibly refined powder/primer/projectile combo, and high grade sporting optics of today give much greater clarity on the effects of barrel harmonics in accuracy.

Though, the accuracy output of some of those old rifles and shooters was insane!!

There are some beautiful examples of purpose built "race guns" in the muzzleloader community...they definitely take into account all factors that can open or close a group up. For average deer hunter like me, a good bedding compound in the stock and good peep sight/globe sight combo will take me further than I can realistically go

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[M-Tecs]

http://www.longrangebpcr.com/Sweet.htm

http://www.texas-mac.com/Minimizing_...weet_Spot.html

[dave951]

YES!!!!

And even more so in some guns depending on configuration.

[quail4jake]

Try this...take a 40+ inch barrel long rifle with a well developed PRB load and fire a 100 yd group on the bench resting at the spot on the forearm where your hand rests shooting offhand. Now duplicate aal of the conditions and rest 12" forward and again another 12" until resting at the muzzle. This will answer the question of harmonics and POI. Even with the forearm extending out to the muzzle it very much matters. My experience with smoothbore PRB at 50 yds. shows more hits with steady offhand pointing than by resting but if I rest on the forearm I make sure it's in the hand spot, further out really changes POI. Great topic, love hearing other's experience.

[GregLaROCHE]

I’ve always thought that barrel harmonics was the one of the reasons why loads were increased or decreased, besides where the barrel was supported.

Some bench rest shooters use a barrel weight and I have heard that some say they get better accuracy with a suppressor. I am assuming it’s because of the a

[GregLaROCHE]

I’ve always thought that barrel harmonics was the one of the reasons why loads were increased or decreased, besides where the barrel was supported.

Some bench rest shooters use a barrel weight and I have heard that some say they get better accuracy with a suppressor. I am assuming it’s because of the added weight. So will a bayonet do the same thing?

[John McCorkle]

Prob just adding mass to the system....this is where my understanding gets thin but looking at the sled guns the bench rest guys use...looks like they are getting as much mass as possible to reduce the amount of vibration...like hitting a tiny Christmas bell with a spoon vs hitting a giant church bell ...both with ring but one much more loudly and with more energy in the vibration.

Lightweight barrels would prob be the Christmas bell, less mass and the energy of firing makes the vibration much more exaggerated. You can still get tack driving accuracy from pencil weight barrels but they don't do well with heat of firing and accuracy nodes are very pronounced.

Look up tac com harmonically dead barrels ...it's a cool study in what guys looking for the elr accuracy are looking for.

Bayonet? Idk. Unless it's very very solid any vibration in the mount may chance poi shot to shot? I have no idea

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[John Boy]

.... and one must remember, change your ammunition for a specific firearm, the sweet spot for the harmonic vibration will change also. Finally, the general area of the bore on a rifle for the sweet spot is approximately 7” from the muzzle

[oldracer]

You can look at your barrels harmonics by testing it as this: just before you get ready to fire, spray a light coat of silicone over the barrel then sprinkle some talc powder over all the barrel. Fire the load and then look at the resulting pattern down the barrel. There will be lighter and darker places. What that all means is??????? But you'll see a harmonics pattern. I tried it on a 45-70 Rolling Block with a 40 inch Badger barrel and tried resting the barrel on a spot where the powder was dark at then light, no difference in the shot groups at 300 yards.
John

[GregLaROCHE]

I’m interested in historic type muzzle loaders with barrel bands. How do barrel bands effect harmonics?

[GregLaROCHE]

The first minute of this video shows how much a barrel can distort when fired. I had never seen any slow motion video of it before and was really surprised how much distortion there is. I’m not sure if all barrels distort this much, but this one sure did. Do muzzle loaders distort that much?

https://youtu.be/Jb6C9ASylmQ

[charlie b]

Yes, they can. How much depends on a lot of things with the thickness of the barrel being the biggest.

And yes, barrel bands will affect it as do wedges and pins along with having half vs full stocks. So, each rifle is a little different, which is why there are articles on finding the sweet spot of each rifle.

[LoveND]

Cryogenic treating the barrel will greatly improve the harmonics. The muzzle whip will be a lot less resulting in tighter groups. Before you send a barrel to be cryogenic treated balance it on a finger and tap it. Remember the sound. Then do the same when it come back after treatment. The sound will be not clunky but a sweet quiet musical sound. Ive treat many a barrel with the cryogenic method modern rifle and muzzle loader and they all have shot better after the treatment. They also clean easier and with modern rifle I’ve gotten 100 ft per second out of the barrel faster bullet. It makes the steel more slick also. It is a positive all the way around. My rifles muzzle loaders and my sons modern rifles are very very accurate. They are all cryogenic treated. If you want to go one step past cryogenic treatment as does the olympic shooters have the barrel sonic vibration treated. Then you barrel will give you accuracy beyond most shooters dreams.

[Plastikosmd]

1” “bull” barrel 308 next to one of my heavy bench guns. Muzzleloader barrel is still bigger than the Unertl programmer on the 308. Weigh of rifle is about 80lbs

[megasupermagnum]

Cryogenic treating the barrel will greatly improve the harmonics. The muzzle whip will be a lot less resulting in tighter groups. Before you send a barrel to be cryogenic treated balance it on a finger and tap it. Remember the sound. Then do the same when it come back after treatment. The sound will be not clunky but a sweet quiet musical sound. Ive treat many a barrel with the cryogenic method modern rifle and muzzle loader and they all have shot better after the treatment. They also clean easier and with modern rifle I’ve gotten 100 ft per second out of the barrel faster bullet. It makes the steel more slick also. It is a positive all the way around. My rifles muzzle loaders and my sons modern rifles are very very accurate. They are all cryogenic treated. If you want to go one step past cryogenic treatment as does the olympic shooters have the barrel sonic vibration treated. Then you barrel will give you accuracy beyond most shooters dreams.

Sounds like a Benelli comercial.

[LoveND]

I don’t know who they are. Speaking from over twenty five or more rifle barrel experience. Do not care if you consider it or not. That’s your business. Only passing on info to those who want the best. It’s proven science not pop art.

[curdog007]

The most important thing to do with a full stock muzzleloader barrel is to slot the pin holes in the barrel lugs, so the barrel can expand and contract with different temperatures. Also, it allows the stock wood to do it's thing during different seasons without binding anything up.
The barrel needs to be a relaxed fit in a full stock, kinda just lay in there.
You won't get wild shots this way, and the first shot (the important one) is on the money.

[koger]

In my gunsmithing carreer, I have glass bedded, over 50 traditional MLs, give them a solid bed the length of the half stock, TC Renegades and Hawkens mostly, several with custom barrels. Every one of them shot better, some slightly, some much better.

[megasupermagnum]

I don’t know who they are. Speaking from over twenty five or more rifle barrel experience. Do not care if you consider it or not. That’s your business. Only passing on info to those who want the best. It’s proven science not pop art.

Don't know Benelli? They are more of a shotgun brand, but do make rifles. They are one of the biggest brands in the world, and not just firearms. Their whole shtick for the last 20-30 years is that their barrels are all cryogenic treated.