777 in a cartridge?

[Wayne Smith]

Don't know where to put this cause we really don't have a BPCR section. Have any of you used 777 in a cartridge, and, if you have, what have you found out about compression?

I know Goex likes quite a bit of compression, and have used that in my 40-70BN and in a 45-70. I've read that Swiss doesn't like to be compressed, and is higher in energy than Goex, and that 777 is similar in energy. I'm planning on loading for this combination gun and thinking that the 10.5x47mm case is a little small for the bullet size. Thus I'm thinking of using 777 for the little extra energy it can give me over Goex, and is locally available. I'm not ready to buy a case of Swiss.

I'm currently planning on a bullet in the 250-280gr range. What will I need for lube grooves when using 777? With Goex I'd need several, or a cookie. I'm looking at the NEI catalog, at #229 cut with one or two lube grooves, or#230 cut without the gc.

Any advice?

[Hackleback]

Yes, you can use 777 in a cartidge. Go to the Hogdon powder web site for more info. 777 does not like much compression - just have the boolit touch the top of the powder. I have been messing with BP and substitutes and cast boolits for my 45- 70 with... "modest" success. 777 has more energy than BP or pyrodex!!! I have been using a "cookie" under my cast boolits consisting of an ox yoke felt wad diped in SPG. I have found that 777 is very clean- in many cases cleaner than smokeless. These are my experiences in this realm- I am a novice at best when it comes to BP and related subjects.

[Castaway]

Loaded some 45 Colt cartridges with a 2.8cc Lee dipper's worth of 777 under a Lee 255 RNFP and no wad. Fired them in my 7.5" Black Hawk and got 1028 f/s. Lube was Liquid Alox. Accuracy was good. Tried some loads in my 45-70 and wasn't as impressed. Think I could improve on the 45-70 load with a smidgen more powder. Used the largest dipper on-hand and almost touched the base of the bullet so there was no compression at all. Velocity was about 1,250 f/s. Will wait until hunting season is over before I play with it again.

[Bent Ramrod]

I have some 3Fg 777 and note the Hodgdon site only recommends 2Fg in cartridges. Has anybody tried 3Fg in a cartridge such as a .44-40? It seems a fair bit faster than 3Fg Elephant in my muzzleloader, and I hear it generates higher pressures than black powder of equivalent granulation.

[omgb]

I've used two pounds of it in 45-90 and 12 GA and 50 Cal. ML. It is very much more potent than BP. Do NOT compress it. Burning rate in 777 is a combined function of surface area plus inhibitor coating. Compressing it will break the coating, change grain size and dramatically increase pressure! I really don't like it much. It can be considerably more corrosive than BP if someone uses any solvent that contains amonia. This is a soap and water powder only. Fouling does not seems to build up which is a good thing. However shot to shot velocity variation is much greater than BP. I don;t think it will ever have any potential as a match-grade powder. BP is just to darned consistant. However, for hunting and plinking it is good but VERY expensive.

R J Talley

[mag_01]

--- Interesting subject----I had some 777 given to me and want to try it in 45 long colt---will shoot it in my blackhawk --- will also try it in a replica pistol---colt peace maker 1873----hoping it will shoot point of aim in replica---loads usually shoot about a foot out south west with the fixed sites or 8 o clock---did some experementing with 44-40 with BP and 40 grs. shot point of aim (replica) firearm---If anyone knows of a load that shoots point of aim (replica) with smokless powder I would be deeply indebted Thx.-------Mag

[felix]

It took me 6 months to find a load that would shoot to POA in all usual weather conditions using one of my replica SSAs. It can be done by matching powder speed, the amount of powder, and primer with the boolit of choice. Must consider this as a challenge and not as a chore to be successful. ... felix

[Willbird]

I'm wondering if it leaves fouling in the BRASS ?? in a ML 777 leaves a nasty candy crust in the area that the powder charge burned in, the rest of the bbl is pretty clean. This of course is with 100 grains, which most ctg. cannot hold that much. Not to cut down the powder, I LOVE it in ML, I left mine loaded for 1 month and it still fired and still dropped a bullet in the group, can't ask for much more than that. It cleans up nicely with just water too.

Bill

[omgb]

Fouls brass like a son-of-a-gun. Said brass must be washed out in soapy water to remove the coating. I don't know if it builds up or not but Bill Knight (the ML rifle maker) says it's very corrosive on brass over time.

[StarMetal]

Castaway,

Dig this...got a Ruger Old Army and I was using 777 with a 200 gr 45 acp SWC and the RCBS 255 gr SWC with velocities in the 1200's for both and really really good groups. No brass to worry about.

Joe

[Buckshot]

...............One of the guys (Don) who frequents the range I use goes to Africa hunting almost every year, and big game hunts all over the U.S. He uses a White Systems inline muzzle loader. When Pyrodex came out he abandoned BP completely and has used nothing but the replica powders ever since.

There has been quite a few of these over the past several years. Some failed for various reasons. Some ventures were private and underfunded, the product didn't match the claims or were just simply bad. As soon as Trip 7 came out he was on it. I don't recall which powder he was using at the time he began testing Trip 7, but several years before I know his load was 130grs of Pyrodex 'P' and a 500gr lead slug from an NEI mould (for paper patching in 45 cal rifles). The slug was carried in a sabot White systems had available.

The last time he was at the range he was still using Trip 7. He really isn't a gun guy, but rather a hunter. He appreciates fine firearms and certainly has the money to buy and use whatever he wants. However the firearm is the tool he uses to persue the sport and performance is his only real yardstick. I don't know what his current load is using Trip 7, but I know his boolit setup is the same. He has painted glowing reports to me of Trip 7 and it's positive aspects. For some reason it just doesn't seem to fit in any of my muzzle loaders

I don't know about any use in cartridges.

..................Buckshot

[Castaway]

StarMetal, you might be interested to know your 1,200 f/s in the Old Army matches my Black Hawk hunting load with a generous dose of IMR 4227and a Lee 255 RNFP for a crony'd 1193 f/s. My H110 load is right at 1,220 f/s or so.

[StarMetal]

Castaway,

One of my favorite handgun calibers is 45. So I have that caliber in various types of firearms. Like alot of folks I like to see what the 45 LC was capable of doing. So I have reasonable knowledge of that. I was quite shocked at what the Ruger Old Army did with 777 and modern projectiles.

Joe

[Castaway]

StarMetal,

I was shocked and impressed by both the Old Army and the cartridge loading also. I wouldn't hesitate to take a deer with either. In fact, I'm headed to the woods for a few days this coming week and am considereing "Hawking" a doe the smokey way, just 'cause I can.

[w30wcf]

Wayne,

Based on my experience, an equal volume (not weight) of 777 FFG and Swiss FFG have about the same ballistic strength in the .45 Colt cartridge. That is, they will produce very close to the same velocity in my rifle's 24" barrel.

Regarding lubrication, I found, at least in the .45 Colt, that shallow grooved bullets using regular smokeless bullet lube worked well.......no doubt due to the fact that the 777 fouling residue is different than b.p. and doesn't build up like b.p.

Best of luck to you with your project.

Castaway,
In my .45 Colt rifle, a capacity load of H4227E is 514 f.p.s. faster than a capacity load of 777FFG.

Starmetal,
Just curious. How many grs. of 777 are you able to load in your Ruger Old Army?
777FFG? 777FFFG? Thank you.

w30wcf

[Wayne Smith]

Thanks, guys! You've pretty much confirmed what I'm thinking. This question is allied with my design question on Molds, Maintenance and Design. It all revolves around getting an old (1880's) European Combination gun shooting again. I believe the rifle cartridge is one of the 10.5x47R based on the cut down 11mm Mauser cartridge. A chamber cast is at CH4D now and I'm awaiting their assessment.

[44man]

I really like the 777 in my Ruger old army. I use the same measure that I use for Swiss which holds 41 gr's. I use a round ball. 777 is just a little slower then Swiss in my gun. I tried it in my 45-70 BPCR and did not like it. I can't get enough in the case for any decent velocity without compressing it and this is a no-no with the stuff. Also, 777 has not been approved for silhouette.

[StarMetal]

44man,

If you use something that presents more resistance for a projectile in that Ruger Old Army with 777, it will perform even better.

Joe

[Blackwater]

Star Metal, I forget, but didn't Ruger make the Old Army to the same heat treat and other strength requirements as the Blackhawk ctg. guns? As I understand it, the cap lock system is the gun's only "weak" spot. Have you managed to get it to recock itself, or anything like that? Just curious.

BTW, a buddy got a nice fat Virginia deer with his last year.

[StarMetal]

No, I've never had that hammer move one iota. I don't think Ruger takes shortcuts on the safety of their products.

Joe