Flat based instead of hollow based bullets for an inline ML?

[Bert2368]

I've been playing with a Palmetto "Ridge Runner" in line .54 muzzle loader, picked up this lightly used rifle and a bunch of accessories at a gun show some time back for cheap. It has a 22" long, 1 twist in 28", 8 lands, .009" deep grooves barrel per the manual specs.

Rifle came with a couple of boxes of swaged, dry lubed? Hornady "Great Plains" 390 gr. hollow base bullets, they have knurled rings with spottily applied white, flaky lube. There is an irregular mass of some more lube partly filling g the hollow base as well, base lube is cracked in several of these factory swaged bullets.

I am shooting these over 100 gr. of GOEX FFG (manual says 90 gr. starting load, 120 gr. max load) ignited by a Winchester 209 primer, cleaning bore between every shot with first a tight fitting 12 gauge cleaning patch over a .50 cal. plastic bore brush wetted with glass cleaner, followed by several dry patches between every shot, blowing the touch hole clean with compressed air after cleaning also. Seems to work, each bullet seems to requires same amount of force to seat as first one, so far as I can tell. No evidence of leading in the barrel. No failures to fire.

I DO note that the first 4 inches of barrel starting from muzzle seem a bit tighter than the rest of barrel down to seating on the powder, takes significantly more force to get an already "started" bullet which has been pushed in until tip is flush with barrel crown through the first few inches, then it get real easy from there on down until it is seated on charge.

When I removed breech, dumped a charge and pushed a fully seated bullet I had loaded but did not wish to fire out, going the other way, I noted a bit of extra tightness in last few inches of barrel again, not as severe as on the way in, but noticable.

Accuracy is horrible. Rifle is scoped, scope has been checked, it's the gun/load. A pie plate would be missed every 3rd shot or so at 50 yards, the whole 11" x 17" paper target is missed frequently at 100 yards. This is supposed to be a hunting weapon but I wouldn't care to shoot a deer at 50 yards with this load/rifle, it's that bad.

The hollow based bullet I recovered shows a significantly uneven base, see pictures, the one on right. Don't know if that is my seating technique, I don't have a "false muzzle" but DO try to take care on starting. I think I'll try to make a false muzzle, I do have a drill press but unfortunately not a metal lathe.

I have read a claim that these rifles performed better with a FLAT BASED bullet. I can see why this might be so, assuming a good base was obtained in molding and not dammaged the loading process.

Questions for people who have more experience?

Suggest a .54 mould and proper lube/size method? Is it reasonable to change to a flat based/lube ringed design as per "free information found on the internet"?

Does anyone even MAKE a .54 sabot/.44 or .45 bullet combination any more, and if so, would it be worth trying? Rifle came with 6 such sabot/JHP bullet combinations, no local store I have spoken with carries ANNYTHING for .54 projectiles or sabers at all. I have not tried these few sabots, figured they might be collector's items.

Is Blackhorn 209 really clean enough to not need barrel cleaning between rounds for say, 10 shot strings. Not that anyone has it in stock! Yes, I noted the information on which 209 primers are "hot enough" for this BP substitute, if I ever see any. Got about 3/4 of a ton of BP on hand but sure would like to spend more time shooting and less swabbing the bore.

What ELSE should I look at. What other information would help diagnose this inaccuracy issue.

[Win94ae]

I'm waiting for the pictures.

[Woodnbow]

If the base is deformed it’s the likely culprit. How it gets deformed is the question that needs an answer. It might be that the powder charge is deforming the base as the bullet exits the tube. This happens often with heavy charges and minie style bullets and the Great Plains bullet is not immune to the same issue.
I wouldn’t be too concerned about the “choked” muzzle, that’s usually a positive thing.

Have you removed the old crusty lube? If not, I’d suggest it first off. Relube sparingly with a good beeswax based lube and try again. At the same time you might weight the bullets and sort them accordingly.

[Bert2368]

I'm waiting for the pictures.

[Bert2368]

If the base is deformed it’s the likely culprit. How it gets deformed is the question that needs an answer. It might be that the powder charge is deforming the base as the bullet exits the tube. This happens often with heavy charges and minie style bullets and the Great Plains bullet is not immune to the same issue.
I wouldn’t be too concerned about the “choked” muzzle, that’s usually a positive thing.

Have you removed the old crusty lube? If not, I’d suggest it first off. Relube sparingly with a good beeswax based lube and try again. At the same time you might weight the bullets and sort them accordingly.

The bullet I recovered with an uneven base was not FIRED, so base dammage would have occurred during loading or possibly while removing it- But it took very little force to remove it.

As far as possibility of skirt being deformed by excessive charge on firing, I am at 100 gr. FFG out of a manual suggested range of 90 to 120 gr. Have not tried it at 90 yet...

I did just try to remove the existing white, flaky lube Hornady put on one of these by setting a bullet in a glass of boiling water. Whatever this stuff is, it does not melt and float to top of water as other lubes I have used will. Have not tried washing it off with solvent.

I have only 17 of these Hornady bullets left, not sure it's worth the time and possibly the chemicals to clean and re lube.

I am going to see if I can jury rig a false muzzle out of a small block of UHMW plastic or even hardwood, only thing I don't have on hand for trying that is a .54 cal. drill bit or a suitable reamer for the .500" drill bit I do have on hand... Maybe I could enlarge from .500" with sandpaper wrapped around a 3/8" dowel, used as an axle while rolling the false muzzle over a table top?

[megasupermagnum]

Are you sure about the .009" deep rifling? Not .0045" deep? Assuming a bore of .540", .009" deep grooves would bring that to .558". .0045" rifling would be .549".

.009" deep rifling is a lot to seal for a bore sized bullet. That is more patched round ball rifling, even with that twist rate.

[Bert2368]

Are you sure about the .009" deep rifling? Not .0045" deep? Assuming a bore of .540", .009" deep grooves would bring that to .558". .0045" rifling would be .549".

.009" deep rifling is a lot to seal for a bore sized bullet. That is more patched round ball rifling, even with that twist rate.

I do not have the correct tools to measure, but here is manual:



(Edit)

The rifle also came with a full box of 100 hornady swaged Lead balls which micrometer measures at .530" plus a couple hundred pre greased patches, some patches by "Traditions" and some looking home made. Twist of 1 in 28" may be a bit fast for round balls but I might as well try a minimum load and see if it's any happier shooting balls than bullets- Manual says to use from 60 gr. to 120 gr. FFG with a patched round ball.

[Good Cheer]

Bert, does the barrel have lead build up in the constricted area?

[idahoron]

I'm sure that the first part the bullet is tight is because the bullet does not have the imprint of the rifling's yet. Once it moves down the barrel a couple inches the marks are cut the the bullet probably falls down the rest of the way. I have store bought bullets.

[Bert2368]

Bert, does the barrel have lead build up in the constricted area?

I have looked carefully from both ends of barrel while cleaning and do not see any Lead buildup. I'm familiar with what Lead looks like, I have a Ruger Super Blackhawk which left the factory with the infamous tight spot in barrel right in front of the forcing cone from a too tightly threaded hole in frame... I have completely disassembled and cleaned the muzzle loader from breech end three times, fired 13 shots so far. Ran a bit of chore boy wrapped around a tight fitting brush after last cleaning, nothing additional came out.

[masscaster]

Hi Bert,
Here's where I get my sabots (Purple .54's for you I would say to try. It takes a .500 dia. boolit tho):
https://mmpsabots.com/store/mmp-standard-sabots/
You could also try a Lyman style Maxi @ .542 - 410gr. with an over powder card.
Hope this helps,
Jeff

[charlie b]

The only way those bullets (in .50 cal) work for me is if I size them to bore dia. I also use a lubed felt wad and card wad above the powder. I also have to use a full charge with them. For me that is 100gn. Any less and they don't seem to shoot as well.

I tried using them as purchased, ie, with the forward bands engraving on loading. I tried paper patching them. Neither did as well as just sizing them.

[Bert2368]

Hi Bert,
Here's where I get my sabots (Purple .54's for you I would say to try. It takes a .500 dia. boolit tho):
https://mmpsabots.com/store/mmp-standard-sabots/
You could also try a Lyman style Maxi @ .542 - 410gr. with an over powder card.
Hope this helps,
Jeff

Thanks!

Since I have a good number of .44 mag moulds (including Lyman and RCBS 240 gr. "Keith" styles and the Mihec 300 gr .44/444 HP and Mihec 240 gr. full wadcutter), also .452 pistol and .458 rifle moulds, along with size dies- I ordered an bag each of the white and the red sabots. .54/.430 & .54/.452. I don't have any .50 moulds on hand so I passed on that type for now. Which bullet are you shooting in that .54/.50 sabot?

Also have got a number of JHP and SP .44 bullets to hand, including 240 gr. and even some 300 gr. dual purpose .44/444 HP with the dual crimp grooves. My .452 jacketed selection is more limited, only have 210 and 240 gr. intended for .45 ACP, probably too thin skinned for ML deer hunting.

Would prefer to stick with cast of course!

[Edward]

Try the Lyman Great Plains/450 gr with pure lead,also the Lee R.E.A.L is a less expensive option used with a felt wad under . Either shoot (lites out )in 45/50/ or 54 cal guns and probably in my .610 if they made it ! All do well with 80 grains OE 2F or equivilent .Twist vary 1-28/1-54/1-60/1-48 depending on barrel used./Ed

[Bert2368]

I just did a quick Google for muzzle energy, velocity and retained energy for the round balls on hand.

Check my assumptions?

Assuming I use the 224 gr. .430 ball and achieve 1500 fps, this would drop below the theoretically desired 800 foot pounds retained energy after 75 yards? And if the 28" twist won't keep accuracy at higher charge weights, it gets worse.

Having hunted here for 12 years and 18 taken deer with centerfire rifles, only about 1/3 of my shots at deer have been under 100 yards, many have been 200 to 250 yards (I practice to 300 yards and limit my shots to under this). The one muzzle loader deer so far was feeding in the open less than 100' from my stand when I walked around a berm and surprised it.

Usually I have taken deer at dusk or dawn along the edge of a harvested fields as they come to feed or leave to lay up, the 3rd growth woods and swamp we have is great bedding/cover for them but pretty hopeless for (me at least) getting a shot. After the first weekend, you usually won't see a deer out in the middle of a field during legal shooting hours.

I have certainly TRIED to still hunt/sneak into their cover, I do get to HEAR and occasionally even SEE deer's South ends while they are going North at full speed... They're much better at this than I am.

Ballistics look a bit better for around 300 gr. .44 & .45 bullets for 100 yard deer.

[charlie b]

Sabots and combinations for .54/.45 bullets.

https://www.harvestermuzzleloading.c...roducts/sabots

https://www.harvestermuzzleloading.c...ducts/scorpion

https://www.harvestermuzzleloading.c...ducts/hardcast

[megasupermagnum]

54 caliber round ball works great to 100 yards, way better than any pistol bullet in sabot I've ever tried. Farther distances could be different, but I've never been all that impressed by any sabot bullet, although they do work fine. Try the round ball. You already have them, there's no reason not to try them.

[charlie b]

Isn't 1:28 a bit fast twist for round ball hunting loads?

[megasupermagnum]

Traditional Jaeger rifles very often had 1:24" twist and similar. They shot round ball great.

[Edward]

Isn't 1:28 a bit fast twist for round ball hunting loads?

Depends on depth of groove ,less velocity works great for ball .To fast strips and thats the problem . /Ed