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Thread: Heavy bottomed Lyman slug clone

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy

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    Heavy bottomed Lyman slug clone

    I know this question has probably been asked on more then one occasion but I don’t know if I could find the answer in a timely manner.

    I’m casting a NOE Lyman 525 sabot clone; I believe it’s intended to drop around 500 grains. The mold came with two sets of pins, flat top and hallow bottom. I’ve done a couple casting sessions with it so far and found that with my alloy, the hallow base drops 475+/- respectively. With the flat pins I’m getting a range of 560-570 with HB alloy.

    I’ve loaded a test batch of each; the hallow base I used the load data pretty much as written from Lyman fifth manual but for the solid I improvised a bit. Since it’s heavy, I looked for a load using the same components in a lead shot configuration that was close to the slug weight. Lymans manual had a 1 1/4 and 1 3/8 using same case and same wad but using Longshot and a federal primer.

    First question is anyone tried a solid bottom Lyman sabot? How did it work out?

    Second, am I okay with what I did with the heavier load?

    Load 1:

    REM GC 2/34
    CB1114-12 wad w/ 1/8 20ga. cork, hallow based sabot 474gr.
    Universal 25.6 gr.
    Win209 primer

    Load 2

    REM GC 23/4
    Cb1114-12 w/ one 20 ga. Cork, solid bottom sabot 563gr.
    Longshot 23.5 gr.
    Fed209A
    (Load data says this is a 10,300 psi load 1200+ FPS. With a 13/8 bird shot)

    Example of each shot at a frozen molasses corn block. The solid made firm contract at 30 yards. Looks like the hallow base had a lot of gas escape by the wad.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Powersgt; 12-05-2020 at 03:17 PM.
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  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    I have the same mold as you and I’ve cast it both ways but I don’t remmember if I ever weighed either . I use these slugs in smoothbore double barrels so my parameters aren’t as strict as lots of folks . Seems to me from the three or four doubles I tried them in the HB filed with hot glue and the solid base for all practical purposes shot the same , POI was certainly a skoosh different but group size was pretty much the same . My groups as a general rule will be two or three from the right barrel on a target the two or three from the left barrel on another target .
    Parker's , 6.5mm's and my family in the Philippines

  3. #3
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    Good morning Powersgt, Since I personally do not own the NOE mold, how well do they shoot?
    I like the fact that they are 474 gr.
    Can you give us more details etc.

    Thanks for sharing it.

    Best regards,
    Ajay K. Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperBlazingSabots View Post
    Good morning Powersgt, Since I personally do not own the NOE mold, how well do they shoot?
    I like the fact that they are 474 gr.
    Can you give us more details etc.

    Thanks for sharing it.

    Best regards,
    Ajay K. Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots
    Well got a chance to try out the solid bottom 525, I had several loads but LS was looking good then....

    I’m not sure if 24.2 grains was to much or too little. Not sure if it side loaded to much, or was it a flawed barrel. I didn’t see anything unusual until the lowest shot on the bottom target. It had good recoil and I couldn’t find a slug or wad that showed signs of being blown from a barrel obstruction.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Powersgt; 06-25-2021 at 06:50 AM.
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  5. #5
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Powersgt View Post
    Well got a chance to try out the solid bottom 525, I had several loads but LS was looking good then....

    I’m not sure if 24.2 grains was to much or too little. Not sure if it side loaded to much, or was it a flays barrel. I didn’t see anything unusual until the lowest shot on the bottom target. It had good recoil and I couldn’t find a slug or wad that showed signs of being blown from a barrel obstruction.

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    Ouch !!
    Hope you and everyone present was uninjured!
    Scott

    You can easily judge the character of others by how they treat those who they think can do nothing for them.

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master


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    What kind of barrel am I looking at?

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy

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    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    What kind of barrel am I looking at?
    RAI VR80 12 gauge, at style shot gun. Rupture is past gas port but before threads that hold hand guard on.
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  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Ok, that makes a lot more sense now. So the burst was already at least 12" down the barrel. There's nothing you did wrong with your loads. Your pressure is peaked before the slug is even in the barrel. You definitely were not heavy on powder. Everything I see in the Lyman manual is around 35-40 grains of longshot. There is even one listed for 45 grains in a 3". Now I realize you are shooting a solid version which is heavier, but Even 30 grains would have been a safe load. The same Lyman manual lists 28.5 gr with 1 3/8 oz of shot at only 10,000 psi.

    For the simple fact that it burst where it did, right between machined spots like that, I'm going to hold judgement for now. If you could do us a favor, send an email to RIA with that picture, and don't say anything besides you were shooting slugs and noticed it had burst for no reason. Mention that the slug did hit the target. Let us know what they think.

    It's possible it was an obstruction, but with the load you were shooting, that would be quite the feat. It would be next to impossible for the slug to come out of the barrel without the wad.

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy

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    Actually sent a return reply to RAI Friday, all they asked for was serial number, number of rounds and ammo type which I told them Remington 1oz. Slugs which is mostly true as I was shooting them also.

    The last rounds down where made with Remington STS/tapper hulls. The Lyman manual calls for 23.5 LS with my wad primer combo with an 1 3/8 load.

    Hopefully they determine it’s a flawed barrel since the rupture happened along the area that is etched with the company inscription.
    USN 86-92
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  10. #10
    Boolit Master



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    I shoot the heck out of my VR80, have had it a couple years now! Got it when they first came out. Is this a new gun or older, like mine?
    Hope everyone is okay!!!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45workhorse View Post
    I shoot the heck out of my VR80, have had it a couple years now! Got it when they first came out. Is this a new gun or older, like mine?
    Hope everyone is okay!!!
    New, had it since the beginning of the year. Had less then a box of rounds through before this point.
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  12. #12
    Boolit Master Cap'n Morgan's Avatar
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    Sarge,

    I think what happened here is somewhat similar to a "ringed chamber" from a rifle load - I'll try to explain.

    Longshot is a slow burning shotgun powder - somewhere between Blue Dot and Steel - and lends itself to rather heavy loads like 1-1/4 or 1-1/2 ounce.
    A light load (or poor crimp) will sometimes give erratic ignition with the slower powders. If this happens the slug may actually start moving down the barrel and then come to a stop.
    Then the powder fully ignites, and you get a pressure wave moving at several thousand fps down the barrel before slamming into the slug. This causes the pressure to rise dramatically before the slug starts moving again, and in your case ruptured the barrel. (of course, all this happens in the blink of an eye)

    I managed to bulge the lower barrel in my Krieghoff in a similar manner. A too light load of Steel resulted in the slug stopping temporarily at the start of the choke.
    I never noticed anything wrong from neither the report or the recoil, and the slug did hit the target. I also looked through the barrel before loading (I do that every time when testing) When I wrote about the incident here, one of the regulars (can't remember who) stressed the importance of not to throttle down the loads when using Steel powder.

    I believe that this phenomenon is mostly a slug-only problem. Should the same thing happen with a shot load, most of the shot will probably continue down the barrel even if the wad should come to a stop, and the obstruction will therefore be less severe.
    Cap'n Morgan

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Please clear up the chain of events. I have exactly the same mold and I'm EXTREMELY concerned about what happened.

    Can you tell us exactly what you shot, in what order, and how many?

    Did you shoot the hollow base slugs first?
    Did you notice any difference from shot to shot if you did?

    Did you shoot any solid base slugs successfully before the barrel burst? Or did it burst on the very first shot of solid base slugs?
    If it didn't burst on the first shot, how many went through before the barrel failed?
    Did you hear/notice anything at all shot to shot?

    Man, this has me scared $hitle$$
    [

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbitNutz View Post
    Please clear up the chain of events. I have exactly the same mold and I'm EXTREMELY concerned about what happened.

    Can you tell us exactly what you shot, in what order, and how many?

    Did you shoot the hollow base slugs first?
    Did you notice any difference from shot to shot if you did?

    Did you shoot any solid base slugs successfully before the barrel burst? Or did it burst on the very first shot of solid base slugs?
    If it didn't burst on the first shot, how many went through before the barrel failed?
    Did you hear/notice anything at all shot to shot?

    Man, this has me scared $hitle$$
    Okay, rest assured that gun didn’t blow up and kill or maim anyone. Except for the gun not cycling correctly and the report getting load in the covered rifle range shooting shed; there was no indication something went wrong. As 45workhorse said, he has put way more rounds through his and I would imagine he has cycled slugs through it as well.

    I was shooting a mixture of Remington 1oz. slugs with rolled crimps and solid based Lyman 525 sabots with folded crimps (nothing was sky rocket fast by any means.) If you look at the picture of the target, all the shots in the top target are a combination of the two slugs. (Sighting in my red dot). The bottom target has a really nice group to upper left with the same load (with 1/2 grain less powder,) than what I was shooting at the time of the failure; which is the shots in the bottom target dead center and below.

    I believe Cap’n has the most plausible answer, which is also been a known cause of rifle failures with low powered/low recoil ammunition. The wad, powder, primer and shell combination is listed for a 1 1/4- 1 3/8 shot loads in the Lyman manual but according to many this seems like a low dose of powder for the weight (565-575 gr.)

    The shotgun was fairly new, I did not have many rounds through it yet as it’s a novelty to me and I was specifically setting it up for hog hunting if I where ever to get the chance to go.

    The gun is being returned to RAI for warranty considerations when I get a chance to get it in the mail (I want to remove my collapsible stock before I send it in. I have already received shipping paperwork.)

    I will keep you posted on the results.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Powersgt; 06-25-2021 at 07:06 AM.
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  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powersgt View Post
    Okay, rest assured that gun didn’t blow up and kill or maim anyone. Except for the gun not cycling correctly and the report getting load in the covered rifle range shooting shed; there was no indication something went wrong. As 45workhorse said, he has put way more rounds through his and I would imagine he has cycled slugs through it as well.

    I was shooting a mixture of Remington 1oz. slugs with rolled crimps and solid based Lyman 525 sabots with folded crimps (nothing was sky rocket fast by any means.) If you look at the picture of the target, all the shots in the top target are a combination of the two slugs. (Sighting in my red dot). The bottom target has a really nice group to upper left with the same load (with 1/2 grain less powder,) than what I was shooting at the time of the failure; which is the shots in the bottom target dead center and below.

    I believe Cap’n has the most plausible answer, which is also been a known cause of rifle failures with low powered/low recoil ammunition. The wad, powder, primer and shell combination is listed for a 1 1/4- 1 3/8 shot loads in the Lyman manual but according to many this seems like a low dose of powder for the weight (565-575 gr.)

    The shotgun was fairly new, I did not have many rounds through it yet as it’s a novelty to me and I was specifically setting it up for hog hunting if I where ever to get the chance to go.

    The gun is being returned to RAI for warranty considerations when I get a chance to get it in the mail (I want to remove my collapsible stock before I send it in. I have already received shipping paperwork.)

    I will keep you posted on the results.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I would personally appreciate it if you would keep us apprised of anything you find out. I would hate to banana peel my Browning A5's barrel if I could possibly avoid it.
    [

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master


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    No, a magical pressure wave did not ruin your barrel. I swear the unproven SEE theory gets more an more crazy every year. First a a possible explanation to high pressure in rifles. Then somehow in revolvers. Now in shotgun slugs making it half way or more down the barrel? Come on now. This is easy to prove too. Load your slug without powder, primer only, and shoot it. How far did the slug get?

  17. #17
    Boolit Master Cap'n Morgan's Avatar
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    This is easy to prove too. Load your slug without powder, primer only, and shoot it. How far did the slug get?
    That will only prove how far a primer can push a slug. I likened the incident to a ringed chamber, and I never mentioned SEE.

    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...ringed-chamber
    Cap'n Morgan

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cap'n Morgan View Post
    That will only prove how far a primer can push a slug. I likened the incident to a ringed chamber, and I never mentioned SEE.

    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...ringed-chamber
    I don't know enough to know for sure if that ringed chamber was due to the air space with his stuffed in dacron or not. That fact is, if this theory were to apply in this case, the slug/wad would have to be 12"+ into the barrel in the first place before the powder ignited. Since a primer alone can not push a slug that far, this theory can not be true. And then to have the slug hit accurately on target?

    No, I always appreciate your input Cap'n, but this is not what happened here.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master Cap'n Morgan's Avatar
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    I have seen a couple of misfires (factory loads) on the shooting range where both shot and wad made it through the barrel, leaving the barrel filled with unburned powder. Maybe some of the powder did ignite, but then, why not all of it? Most of us slug-people have experienced bloopers. I believe this incident was a blooper that came to life again a few thousands of a second later. If that was not what happened, then what did happen? The load was far from being in the danger area - and don't tell me the barrel had a "weak point"

    The chamber ringing is not a myth, and can be repeated on command. If you are interested, try reading this thread which also has to do with barrel ringing. I had endure some ribbing from the experts and their gut-feelings, but the final results may surprise you. I know it surprised me:

    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...r-under-powder
    Cap'n Morgan

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master


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    It seems a bit of a stretch to me. So you get a blooper, that somehow isn't powerful enough to push the slug all the way out of the barrel, but then with no compression, no resistance, and likely powder scattered through the barrel, it somehow ignites instantly a second time with enough force to create some shockwave that only bursts where the slug stopped?

    I hate saying no anymore, as I'm always wrong. I'll tell you what. As long as I don't forget, I'll test this, and video it next week. I've got a mossberg 500 barrel I would not care at all if I burst. I'll ramrod a slug half way down, stick a primed, empty, but charged with powder shotgun shell in the chamber, and pull the trigger with a string. If I can get even one shot to ignite, I'll admit that this is feasible. My current opinion is that there is no way.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check