I don’t get the infatuation with powder coat and hi tech

[wrench]

Interesting to see all the different ways our group attacks this issue. Myself, I like to experiment and try new things. I have Star sizers and RCBS lubesizers, I still use them quite a bit and traditionally lube/size most rifle bullets and some calibers of pistol bullets. I've probably got enough lube stored up for the rest of my life.
Also use BLL to tumble lube some bullets, fast, easy and clean.
Still, I've been playing with both Hitek and PC with some calibers.
I occasionally shoot indoors, and the reduction in smoke is appreciated.
I also shoot USPSA, and go through a lot of 9mm bullets. PC and Hitek are fast, clean, less smoke and aren't sticky to store and use.
My mother always used to say, "It takes all kinds to make a world"

[Conditor22]

"The Powder Coating thing seems to have a steeper learning curve as well."

I have to disagree with this↑↑↑.

You have different lubes for different velocities and different temperatures

You leave lube on the base of your boolit and it will mess up our charge.

lubed boolit attract dirt and grime

lubed boolits gunk up your dies

lube can fall out or melt out

I made a jig to make hollow lube sticks, mixed my own lube, and made lube sticks (and always made a mess)

lubed boolits smoke more and aren't allowed in many indoor ranges (IF I want the extra smoke I'll shoot my BP guns )

lubed boolits are harder to store and your always handling lead, unlike Coated boolits.

coated boolits you can use different colors for different loads

coated boolits are easier to size

you can easily make coated boolits bigger by adding more coats (no need to beagle or polish the mold cavities)

coated boolits lead-less and keep the barrels cleaner

coated boolits can be a little slippery to handle

women like pretty boolits

coated boolits have a much smaller/shorter learning curve

coatings are cleaner/easier to store (I have several boxes full of lube sticks (always stored inside) that no longer have a center hole in them )

With a 2 shelf oven, you can double coat 44 pounds of boolits in a little over 75 minutes with Hitek.


That being said, there are some long time reloaders that have perfected the lubing process and get excellent results.

In short, you need to do the process you feel the most comfortable with.

[Lloyd Smale]

I started with the lube/sizers and have two of them. Have a good supply of lubes from LARS on hand. All my bullet molds are made to drop my bullets big and all my sizing dies are such to give me .002" over groove diameter. My understanding is that PC'ing is best done with tumble lube type grooves in the bullets, which none of mine are. All this stuff will have to collect dust if I start PC'ing and equals more money wasted. I do however wish I would have known about PC'ing when I started because it does sound like the best way to go. BUT, none of this matters if primers don't start coming back on our shelves. So unless all the planets line up in our favor, I am not going to invest in another rabbit hole.

pc will work with any bullet. Only reason some say tumble lubed or even smooth bullets are better is because they have more surface to grab the rifling. Ive got a star and a lyman and they will collect dust for the most part from here on out. I wont sell them for just in case reasons. But PC just plain works better and is much cleaner. No brainer if you ask me. I was one of the skeptics here when it was realitively new. even got into a few arguments about it. But i gave it a try and had to eat crow. Its the biggest casting advancement since people made round balls over camp fires. Star sizers were a game changer too but pc put us into a different century. cool thing is its even cheaper to get going with if your a new caster. Ive been on a mission all summer trying to shoot up all my lube sized loaded ammo to reload them with pc bullets. I got about a 1/3 of the way through the project. Heck i even gave away a few thousand rounds just asking for the brass back. Right now the only way id lube size a bullet is if i was out of pc and couldnt get any. Ive got a large crock pot full of bullet lube that i used to melt to fill the star Might even take up candle making. Love the smell of an alox based lube. Dont quite think my wife would agree to those scented candles though.

[derek45]

once i adapted to powder coating, i sold my lube-a-matic and heater base

I like powder coating much better

less smoke is good for rapid fire gun games like USPSA/IPSC

cleaner gun

cleaner hands after a 500round loading session on the Dillon 650

as we get older, we tend to get resistant to change

i try to ward off that tendency

try new things and new ways

adapt and learn

stay flexible

[robg]

has anyone done a side by side comparison ,same boolit load etc but lubed/tumble lubed/powder coated ?

[Multra]

2500+ fps.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

PC fixed three problem guns for me, a 9mm that leaded no matter what, a tight revolver that started to bind after a few cylinders, and an extractor that accumulated fouling underneath and stopped extracting. By the time I figured it out for those three, I decided it was good enough for everything else. It helps reduce lead exposure to some degree as well. In handling and with loose rounds carried in a pocket. Softer alloys seem to shoot just fine with PC, allows my to blend my wheel weights with pure and stretch them farther.

Has anyone managed to get away with PC in ranges that would not allow cast in the past?

[gwpercle]

What’s the big deal? I cast the bullets, handle them one time through a lubrisizer then load them . No separate sizing operation , no shake and bake, no concern about size variation, No concern about brand of paint, just a very time efficient loading operation. Sure they look pretty but so what. The traditional lubed/ sized bullets shoot great and do not lead. Why change? I have had leading problems with many of the commercial Handgun high tech bullets if velocity is high but that may be too hard bullets with a bevel base. What am I missing? Seems like a waste of time with the extra steps for pretty bullets. Do they group better? Or is it just something different for those with much free time.�� I am not a snowflake so you can flame me. Its all in good fun but I would like to know.

Dogdoc

I agree 100% . Pick up boolit , place it in die (with or without gas check) , pull handle down , tweak lube pressure handle every 3 boolits or so, lift handle and place complete boolit ready for shooting in box .
Tell me again how much easier and faster powder coating is ... I don't see it !
And don't be telling no lies when you explain how much quicker it is . My boolits don't lead so I don't have any leading problems to overcome .
My Lyman 450 was paid off in 1972 ... I don't have to buy anything else but Lube and Gas Checks.
Gary

[303Guy]

I still want to try PC. I like trying new things and as Larry says, it's like putting a jacket on the boolit. Is that correct? That's my objective.

[kevin c]

I'd guess it's also partly what you get used to doing.

My path to coated bullets started with high volume reloading to make shooting action pistol more reasonable cost wise. Commercial cast bullets with standard lube were less expensive than jacketed, but, even outdoors there was too much lube smoke obscuring the targets. The other cast choices I found back then were moly and HiTek. I liked the HiTek better, and went with that when I started casting my own.

I could rationalize my choice based on the smoke, lead exposure, clean up and bore cleaning arguments, all of which seem to have merit, but, really, a lot of the choice boiled down to inertia.

[Mal Paso]

The timing of powder coating was bad. If it had come out at the same time as Lyman's undersize molds I would never have supported all the independent mold makers and bought all those .432" molds. I now have a Star sizer and a perfect lube based platform.

Sorry PC You Are Too Late.

[Froogal]

Some folks like to ride unicycles, some tricycles and others bicycles.

I have thought bout getting a lubrisizer at times but really don't have the space for it at either of our places. When you get older, you tend to "down size'. I have purchased lulled boolits at times and still have some in jars as I don't shoot them so much anymore - and over time, the lube has dried out some.

I have had excellent results with tumble lubing in both handguns and rifles and to me, it's no big deal to TL, lay 'em out to dry and then store.

I have purchased PC'd boolits and have also had some given to me to try - I'm not bit on high tech but I have had excellent results with them and do like them. I can see how some folks like to pC and at some point, I may give it a try.

Yea, using a lubrisizer may be more efficient in that you can size and size in the same operation and I guess, if you shoot a lot or in competition, time is of th4e essence - especially if you are younger, working, have family, etc. But for many, it's to about time or efficiency - it's about the fun and relaxation from doing the various aspects of reloading, casting, etc. I could certainly be more efficient if I used my turret press all the time but I still like to use my old single stage as well as my Lyman 310 steel tongs and dies.

At this point, I am getting more interesting in try PC boolits in a couple of my rifles just to see how well they do as I know some like the results they have in some of their rifles. Fortunately, I have a friend who will PC some for me to try and he'll help me get set up to do it if I decide to take the "PC plunge".

I do not have space for a permanently installed lubri-sizer either. I mounted mine to a plank, and then I clamp the plank to the bench top. When I'm done, the lubri-sizer goes back into storage.

[Larry Gibson]

has anyone done a side by side comparison ,same boolit load etc but lubed/tumble lubed/powder coated ?

I have done several extensive tests, here's one;

Lee 452-230-TC with 4 different PCs vs BAC lubed bullet

Several weeks ago a member offered to send some of his PC’d Lee 452-230-TC cast of COWW + 2% tin to compare, in a side by side test, any difference in velocity, pressure and accuracy they might have against my own like Lee bullets. Sounded like a good test so I took him up on the offer. In due course, after several PMs wherein we cogitated the parameters of the test, a box of bullets arrives. I found, just as he promised, there were 4 batches PC’d with 3 different kinds of PC (one batch had a double coat applied) sized .452. I would load those with my standard 45 ACP load to test against my own TC bullets lubed with BAC.

There were also 4 batches of the same PC’d bullets unsized. I would size those .454 and load over a tested 45 Colt load which I use in my SAAs and M73 Carbine.

All test rounds were loaded on a Dillon SDB press as that’s how I would use them. The powder for both the 45 ACP and 45 Colt is Bullseye. The powder thrower on the SDB was carefully adjusted with charges weighed on an Ohaus 10-0-5 scale. I loaded 5 gr Bullseye in the 45 ACP and 7 gr Bullseye in the 45 Colt. The bullets weighed 230 – 233 gr including my fully dressed lubed bullet.

I used the following firearms in the test;
Uberti M73 Carbine, 45 Colt
M98 Rhineland conversion, 45 ACP
TC Contender barrel, 45 ACP
TC Contender, 45 Colt
S&W M1917/25, 45 ACP
Colt Series 70 w/Ed Brown Match barrel, 45 ACP
Uberti “Evil Roy” SAA, 45 Colt

Attachment 272085

The cartridges were loaded with my standard loads on the SDB with Dillon SDB 45 ACP dies. A taper crimp was used to straighten out the case mouth flair. The 45 Colt cases were sized in a RCBS steel dies then lube cleaned off. They were loaded on the SDB with the Dillon sizer removed. A slight role crimp was applied to case mouth crimping into the forward edge of the front drive band just behind the start of the ogive.


Attachment 272090

The loads are as follows;

45 ACP:
Lee 452-230-TC cast of COWW + 2% tin
Bullseye powder at 5.0 gr
A WLP primer
Remington R-P cases
OAL; 1.199”


45 Colt;
Lee 452-230-TC cast of COWWs + 2% tin
Bullseye powder at 7.0 gr
A WLP primer
Winchester W-W case
OAL; 1.588”


Pressure testing was done with the TC Contender barrels via an Oehler M43 PBL. The velocities listed for the Contender tests are muzzle velocities. Accuracy and functional velocities (screen center was 15’ from the muzzle) were done with an Oehler 35P. The handguns accuracy (group size) was done with the target at 25 yards. The 2 rifles were tested with the target at 50 yards. A two handed hold was used on the handguns with hands braced on sandbags. The rifles were shot with the fore hand resting on sandbag with elbows on bench.

All tests were 10 shot test strings (both for pressure and accuracy/velocity testing). The barrels were cleaned between tests and 2 foulers fired prior to record testing.

I completed the rather extensive test (350 rounds “for record” + foulers) of the PC'd bullets in both the 45 Colt and 45 ACP cartridges. Four different firearms (Contender for pressure, Colt M1911, S&W M1917/25, and M98 Rhineland rifle) were used for the 45 ACP tests. Three different firearms were used for the 45 Colt (Contender for psi, Uberti SAA "Evil Roy" and Uberti M73 Carbine) tests.

In this test I found only one of the PC'd 452-230-TC bullets that performed as well accuracy wise as my own with a naked BAC lubed bullet. That PC coating was the Cardinal Gloss Black. None of the other PC’d bullets were found to be more accurate out of any of the Those other PC’d bullets would start out, in several of the firearms giving excellent accuracy but around rounds 6 – 8 the fliers would start. In a couple cases it appeared so bad I began questioning my shooting ability. However, when I shot the Cardinal Gloss Black PC’d bullets and the naked BAC lubed bullets accuracy was as it should have been.

When cleaning I found fouling (PC buildup and leading) to be a problem with two of the PC coatings (both the Sherman Williams coatings and the Cardinal Pearlescent Steel Gray) in several of the firearms, particularly the 6 1/2" barreled M1917/25 and both rifles. The fouling was both from a heavy build up of the PC in the bore and several instances, leading also. Here is some of the leading and PC buildup removed with a Lewis Lead remover after one test string. The leading removed in this picture when the Cardinal Pearlescent Steel grey was shot in the S&W M1917/25.

Attachment 272086

The Sherman Williams, both 1 and 2 coats, left PC deposits in all the barrels after 6 - 8 rounds with flyers then occurring. They also left leading in the S&W M1917/25 in 45 ACP and Uberti SAA in 45 Colt. The PC fouling could be cleaned out easily with a bronze bore brush and Hoppe's #9. The leading required a Lewis Lead Remover to remove as pictured above. This picture shows the PC residue buildup when the Sherman Williams PC was used, particularly the 2 coated bullets.

Attachment 272091

As to reducing pressure I found only one of the PC'd bullets demonstrated a measurable (outside of lot to lot variation probable) less psi that the lubed bullet in the 45 Colt but that PC’d bullet gave the highest psi in the 45 ACP, higher than the naked BAC lubed bullet.

Additionally I found one of the PCs (Cardinal Gloss Black) to leave a residue on the firearms (revolvers) worse than regular lube does. There also was considerable residue blown back on the case with the 45 Colt load. Other than that the Cardinal Gloss Black 1 coat worked well in all the firearms and rivaled the naked BAC lubed bullets for accuracy. It gave slightly less psi and slightly less velocity in all the firearms too. However, as mentioned, there was a considerable blackish deposit left in the chambers, on the cylinders of the revolvers and around the carrier of the M73. That did not seem to affect the accuracy and no fouling occurred in any bores. It cleaned off the firearms as readily as the residue from naked BAC lubed bullets.

The Sherman Williams, both 1 and 2 coats, left PC deposits in all the barrels after 6 - 8 rounds with flyers then occurring. They also left leading in the S&W M1917/25 in 45 ACP and Uberti SAA in 45 Colt. The PC fouling could be cleaned out easily with a bronze bore brush and Hoppe's #9. The leading required a Lewis Lead Remover to remove. There will be a couple pictures of that in the article.

The cardinal Pearlescent Steel Gray performed well in all the handguns both ACP and Colt but was pretty inaccurate in both rifles.

I’m not going to draw any conclusions; I’ll let each of you do that by scrutinizing the data. Here are the correlated data for each cartridge:

45 ACP/452-230-TC/5 gr Bullseye/WLP/R-P Case
Sherman Williams
Metallic Silver 1 Coat
Firearm…………… Grp @ 25 yd……..Velocity……SD……..ES……psiM43)…..SD……ES……..
TC Contender………3.9”..(8 in 2.8”)……1019 fps….11 fps…35 fps…..20,200…….900…...3,300……
S&W M1917/25…….4”…(8 in 3”)……….890 fps….15 fps…54 fps…....
Colt Gvm’t M1911….5.5”…………………919 fps…..12 fps…42 fps……
M98 Rifle..(50 yd).....3.2”..(7 in 1.1”)…….1046 fps….17 fps….58 fps…..

Sherman Williams
Metallic Silver 2 Coats
Firearm…………… Grp @ 25 yd…..Velocity…….SD…….ES………psiM43)…..SD……ES……..
TC Contender………4.6”……………..1006 fps……19 fps…58 fps……19,400…...1,200….3,400…
S&W M1917/25……5.4”..(9 in 4”)…….903 fps……14 fps…41 fps
Colt Gvm’t M1911…6.5”………………919 fps…….19 fps…54 fps
M98 Rifle…(50 yd)…5.25”……………1044 fps……10 fps…33 fps

Cardinal Pearlescent
Steel Gray 1 Coat
Firearm…………… Grp @ 25 yd…..Velocity….…SD…….ES………psiM43)…..SD……ES……..
TC Contender………4.4”……………..1002 fps……14 fps…53 fps……19,900……1,500…4,000
S&W M1917/25…….4.9”………………895 fps...…17 fps…54 fps
Colt Gvm’t M1911….5”………………...917 fps…...10 fps…35 fps
M98 Rifle..(50 yd)…5.2”………………1038 fps…...13 fps…48 fps

Cardinal Gloss
Black 1 Coat
Firearm…………… Grp @ 25 yd……Velocity……SD…….ES………psiM43)…..SD……ES……..
TC Contender………2.2”………………996 fps……16 fps…..61 fps……18,700……1,200….4,100
S&W M1917/25……2.2”………………886 fps……16 fps…..43 fps
Colt Gvm’t M1911…3”…………………917 fps……9 fps…...31 fps
M98 Rifle…(50 yd)..3.6”…(8 in 1.4”)…1035 fps…...14 fps….43 fps

Naked Cast
BAC Lube
Firearm…………… Grp @ 25 yd….Velocity…..…SD…….ES………psiM43)…..SD……ES……..
TC Contender………2.1”……………..1004 fps……12 fps….40 fps…..18,900…….900……2,900
S&W M1917/25……2.25”…………… 917 fps……..9 fps…..30 fps
Colt Gvm’t M1911…2.75”…………….922 fps…….12 fps….37 fps
M98 Rifle…(50 yd)…2.2”……………1060 fps…….15 fps….45 fps

45 Colt/452-230-TC/7 gr Bullseye/WLP/W-W case
Sherman Williams
Metallic Silver 1 Coat
Firearm………………. Grp @ 25 yd….Velocity………SD…….ES……psiM43)…..SD……ES
TC Contender………….2.8”……………..1080 fps……10 fps….34 fps…..14,800……800……2,900
Uberti Evil Roy SAA…..3.6”……………..896 fps……..12 fps….34 fps..
Uberti M73 Carbine..(50 yd)..3.6”………...1153 fps……12 fps…41 fps

Sherman Williams
Metallic Silver 2 Coats
Firearm………………. Grp @ 25 yd….Velocity……..SD…….ES………psiM43)…..SD……ES
TC Contender…………..3.1”……………1070 fps…….12 fps….39 fps…..15,700……500……1,700
Uberti Evil Roy SAA…..3.6”…………….900 fps……...8 fps…...24 fps
Uberti M73 Carbine..(50 yd)….2.8”..……1142 fps…….8 fps……27 fps

Cardinal Pearlescent
Steel Gray 1 Coat
Firearm………………. Grp @ 25 yd….Velocity………SD…….ES………psiM43)…..SD……ES
TC Contender………….3.9”…………….1070 fps……..7 fps….20 fps……16,000……600……1,700
Uberti Evil Roy SAA…..5”……………….899 fps……..18 fps…59 fps
Uberti M73 Carbine.;(50 yd)..4.2………...1135 fps………5 fps…17 fps

Cardinal Gloss
Black 1 Coat
Firearm………………. Grp @ 25 yd…..Velocity…..…SD…….ES………psiM43)…..SD……ES
TC Contender…………..1.8”……………1066 fps…….11 fps….31 fps……15,900…..500……1,700
Uberti Evil Roy SAA…...2”………………896 fps……..10 fps….31 fps
Uberti M73 Carbine..(50 yd)..2.5”………..1134 fps……13 fps…..49 fps

Naked Cast
BAC Lube
Firearm………………. Grp @ 25 yd…..Velocity……SD…….ES……..…psiM43)…..SD……ES
TC Contender…………..1.8”…………….1078 fps….9 fps…….35 fps……16,700……900……2,900
Uberti Evil Roy SAA…..2”………………..902 fps….12 fps……44 fps
Uberti M73 Carbine..(50 yd)..1.7”………..1135 fps…..5 fps…….15 fps


I also have another involving HT coated 225438s in the 223 Rem and the 314299 in the 7.62x54R. I also have posted other similar results from other tests.

As I previously stated so far PC/HT hasn't shown me any improvement to make it worth while to do. Also I'm not trying anyone not to PC/HT their cast bullets. If it works for you then have at it. PC/HT just doesn't work for me at this time. More power to all who strive to make it better, keep at it and who knows.....I might convert......

[onelight]

Good post Larry thank you !

[Bazoo]

No room for a lubesizer? Throw out the toaster oven.

I am going to try PCing at some point, I have all the stuff. Even found a toaster oven for free.

All the argument of one vs the other, you don't see hardly anyone that does both.

I like traditional lube. Same as traditional guns. There is something "more than the sum of it's parts" about traditional lube.

Can you imagine, reading Keith, and he says. Well back in those days all we had was lube and I didn't want to get my hands and gun dirty, plus the smoke, I decided it wasn't worth the trouble to roll out of bed and go elk hunting that morning.

I think PCing is neat and has it's place. The OP's infatuation remark is spot on with what I've seen. Folks seem more interested in the shiny colors than they are making holes in paper or game.

[303Guy]

I would imagine there is a great deal of satisfaction in making those pretty, near perfect PC boolits.

Sure makes me want to do it. On the other hand, I don't want to get to spend too much effort in getting set up for PC only to find I haven't actually gained anything. I do have a bag of powder though, some yellow something. It may be the wrong powder but it was free. I also have a toaster oven so I'm actually part way there sort of. I'm sure I can drop in at our local powder coaters and ask for a small amount of specific powder to test.

I'll never know whether there is any benefit to me if I don't try it. And being retired now, I have more time to play.

[Gunslinger1911]

A lot depends on what / how you shoot
I know a guy, has a single cav mould for a 500g 45 boolet, pan lubes, sizes through a special honed die, can hit a 55 gal drum at 1000 yds with his Sharps (I won't even go into his loading procedure - I can load 500 45acp on my Dillon while he loads 20 rds 45/70) lol
I, and my sons, on the other hand shoot the afore mentioned 45acp - a LOT; various 1911's, S&W 625, AR45, you get it.

I have been using a Lyman lub/sizer for decades, dozen dies, heater, Carnuba Red lube - all good.

Use Lee push through dies for some things - bout a dozen of those too

Tried the shake and bake PC thing after it seemed like you guys got the bugs out (thanks for being the beta testers !)

Low initial cost to start, might be fun, might learn something.

Some seem to be able to dump the boolets on to a pan and cook; didn't work for me - I stand em up.

My big expense for PC was a Lee APP, something like $75 and uses my old push through dies - has a 4 tube feeder !
Once I got the procedure down, I could really produce some boolets !
While one batch is cooking (~200), I'm loading another tray and / or sizing.

I have timed both methods; size/lube and PC / size for 500 boolets
For 45 it's kind of a wash, about the same time, just a little quicker PC'ing
Now 9mm - waaaaay faster to PC. Those little 9mm boolets are harder to place into the Lyman.

Add in; non-stickey boolets, way less smoke when shooting, NO gunk in the loading dies, boolets are slicker than whale snot on an ice flow, I can get away with a little more velocity before gas checking, solved my buddies 9mm leading issue; yes, you can make pretty colors - I personally run Smokes clear, But I make pink boolets for the ladies (hey, anything to get em shooting!).
Also, for a gas AR, lube is bad for the gas tube, my 350 Legend and 50 Beowolf can shoot lead with PC.

[Chainsaw.]

For me it was a matter of initial buy in. I was a new caster not that many years ago, I had no sizing lubing equipment. What I did have was a very small budget to work with. A Tupperware from the kitchen cabinet, a second hand toaster oven and a $12 bag of powder and I was set. The results were coated bullets with some of the aforementioned benefits and bores that are clean as a whistle.
If you are set up with a lubrisizer, no reason to pursue powdercoat outside of curiosity.

[Bazoo]

Dumb question, doesn't the PC have to be baked outside cause of fumes?

[ryanmattes]

All the argument of one vs the other, you don't see hardly anyone that does both.

I like traditional lube. Same as traditional guns. There is something "more than the sum of it's parts" about traditional lube.

I do both. I've always been one to start with the traditional way first, and then try newer things, testing against the traditional way as I go, to see if it actually has any benefits.

In fact, I make my own lube from my own beeswax from the hives I keep in the back pasture. My cowboy loads are bare lead with 80/20 bees wax to vasoline, pan lubed, in an NOE version of the 454424 with the square lube groove. Unless I can find an original Ideal 454424 or a lead deposit in my back yard, I'm not sure how I could make it more traditional.

But for high volume, higher velocity 9mm that feeds reliably across a number of pistols, doesn't lead, doesn't smoke, and performs consistently, I've had better luck with Hi-Tek.

In the end, I guess I'm a "use the right tool for the job" kind of guy.

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