I don’t get the infatuation with powder coat and hi tech

[JM7.7x58]

Bullet sizing is another rabbit hole that divides these two methods. Many would recommend that you size a lubed bullets .002” over your slugged size, or even larger.

Many have found that PC exhibits it’s best accuracy when bullets are sized between .001” to just .0005” over the slugged size. The rational is that by minimizing the damage to the PC jacket as it enters the throat, it will reduce the possibility of leading associated with jacket damage, and improve consistent flyer free accuracy.

Different systems require different solutions. You would never size muzzle loader bullets the same way you size breech loaded cartridge bullets. Yet both systems can achieve fine accuracy.

PC just isn’t going to be as accurate as a finely tuned lube based load(lube flyers and fouling shots excluded). But for many it’s benefits out weight the lack of accuracy. It is unaffected by temperature, doesn’t require fouling shots, and you don’t get lube flyers. It is less accurate, but more consistent.

And, for the new caster getting started, PC is much cheaper than a lubrisizer with all their different dies and top punches. A thrift store toaster oven, a grocery store oven thermometer, and a homemade wire basket are all you really need. The material costs of lube vs powder is insignificant. The cost benefit to the new caster has only gotten better now that we have both the Lee Breech Lock modular sizing system and the NOE modular sizing system available to the new caster.

JM

[Mal Paso]

What are "lube flyers"? A search turns up oil change ads.

I did find "cold barrel flyers" but I have not experienced that. First shot is often a bullseye. Makes follow up shots a *****. LOL

[derek45]

[dtknowles]

What are "lube flyers"? A search turns up oil change ads.

I did find "cold barrel flyers" but I have not experienced that. First shot is often a bullseye. Makes follow up shots a *****. LOL

Lube flyers are the result of lube fouling. A build up of excess lube in the bore that is purged with a shot that does not follow the group. Sort of the opposite of the fouling shot. Bore needs to be fouled with lube but not too much. It is either caused by bullets with too many, too large lubed grooves or by too fast a powder that does not keep the pressure up all the way to the muzzle to blow out the excess lube.

Lube flyers are not wildly inaccurate but can turn a sub moa group into moa and a half or so.

Tim

[JM7.7x58]

A lube flyer comes from too much lube. It is sometimes called a lube purge. Sometimes you will notice that casters will refer to only filling one lube groove. They do this in an effort to improve accuracy by reducing the effects of over lubed bullets, that can produce lube flyers.

Here is a good thread where it is explained by some fine gentlemen over at the cast bullet association. There is little consensus of the exact mechanism that causes the flyers, only that when lube is reduced that often groups tighten up.

https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/th...94-lube-purge/

JM

[dtknowles]

What are "lube flyers"? A search turns up oil change ads.

I did find "cold barrel flyers" but I have not experienced that. First shot is often a bullseye. Makes follow up shots a *****. LOL

Cold barrel flyers are not really flyers they are just where a cold barrel will shoot. Many barrels will change their POA as they warm up. Freshly cleaned and oiled barrels with also shoot to a different POA. For big game hunters this first shot is very important and when sighting in a big game rifle I suggest you not clean it after sighting it in and fine tune adjust the sights with cold barrel shots. Some big game hunting rifles have thin barrels and are bedded with forearm pressure. These are most likely to change their POA as the barrel warms up.

Tim

[Elpatoloco]

I didn't get it either. Until I did it. My 2 sons who are now grown both reload. I can send them slugs ready to load without lube worries.

[bigboredad]

Volume shooters and that usually means frequent shooters will see the biggest rewards for their effort. Mixing and testing alloys is no longer necessary because the coating makes the bullet act like its jacketed. You don't get your dies hummed up from traditional lubes because the coating acts like a jacketed bullets. You and your guns stay a lot cleaner because you aren't burning the bullet because the coating acts like a jacketed bullet. Barrels that have been troublesome and always lead up no matter what you try and all barrels in general will be cleaner because the coating acts like a jacketed bullet.

The one and only downside for me is coating your bullets by yourself is time consuming and with my star I was always amazed how fast and easy living is. I also miss the smell of a lubes bullet being shot in rapid fire blazing away at bowling pins or a plate rack.

Now I have more time than money and don't shoot very much. The most I'll shoot in a week is around 1200 and since I can't afford jacketed bullets and hate plated bullets and I enjoy casting and making all the cool colors it works for me. Thank God there is only 1 of me so I'm highly sure your mileage will vary. My 1 suggestion would be perhaps you should purchase a sample and give them a try. Or if you are happy and enjoy doing it your way CARRY ON but just make sure to CARRY On and above all else have FUN

Sent from my SM-T377V using Tapatalk

[44Blam]

Bullet sizing is another rabbit hole that divides these two methods. Many would recommend that you size a lubed bullets .002” over your slugged size, or even larger.

Many have found that PC exhibits it’s best accuracy when bullets are sized between .001” to just .0005” over the slugged size. The rational is that by minimizing the damage to the PC jacket as it enters the throat, it will reduce the possibility of leading associated with jacket damage, and improve consistent flyer free accuracy.

Different systems require different solutions. You would never size muzzle loader bullets the same way you size breech loaded cartridge bullets. Yet both systems can achieve fine accuracy.

PC just isn’t going to be as accurate as a finely tuned lube based load(lube flyers and fouling shots excluded). But for many it’s benefits out weight the lack of accuracy. It is unaffected by temperature, doesn’t require fouling shots, and you don’t get lube flyers. It is less accurate, but more consistent.

And, for the new caster getting started, PC is much cheaper than a lubrisizer with all their different dies and top punches. A thrift store toaster oven, a grocery store oven thermometer, and a homemade wire basket are all you really need. The material costs of lube vs powder is insignificant. The cost benefit to the new caster has only gotten better now that we have both the Lee Breech Lock modular sizing system and the NOE modular sizing system available to the new caster.

JM

I disagree that a PC boolit can't be as finely tuned as a lubed boolit.
I've been able to hit 2' targets at 600 yards consistently with my 1895 (staff sight) and it's a 350 grain NOE RD shape that was GC'd and PC'd. You cannot do that if your system is not accurate to begin with.

[David2011]

Bigboredad, you hit a nerve. I LOVE the smell of honey in RandyRat’s lubes. I don’t get that when I PC. Fortunately, I still use conventional lube on my bigger bore low volume handgun boolits.

[tazman]

I like loading with Hitek coated boolits.......provided someone else does the coating. I don't like the coating process.

[dtknowles]

I disagree that a PC boolit can't be as finely tuned as a lubed boolit.
I've been able to hit 2' targets at 600 yards consistently with my 1895 (staff sight) and it's a 350 grain NOE RD shape that was GC'd and PC'd. You cannot do that if your system is not accurate to begin with.

A two foot target at 600 yards is 4 MOA.

Tim

[BrutalAB]

For me:
Less variables for load development. (Which lube to use, how many bands to fill with lube)

Don't have to buy a lubesizer/top punches or deal with that pan lubing nonsense that looks like it would be way more time consuming than powdercoating. (Do lube sizers have to be cleaned, especially when changing lubes from pistol to rifle? )

Coated boolits never oxidize

Different colors for different alloys (pure lead for hunting gets the sparkle treatment)
Plus they just look good to me.

Its not lee liquid alox.


I have never dealt with any boolit lube (might have used one box of commercial cast around 2013/14 but honestly dont fully remember it)


A buddy has told me that he much prefers my coated boolits over lubed because of extra smoke during shooting lubed. Cant verify if this is significant or not, but dont really care to find out.

If i had started out a few years earlier and had a lubesizer and experience with lube, i might have a different opinion. Especially since the first two would not affect me (as much)

Paper patching does itch my curiosity, but lube just doesnt for some reason.

[Petander]

Oh boy.

I like to cast bullets, it's a hobby on its own to me.

Coatings are the same, I cast and experiment with coatings to make the best, most accurate ammo possible,not to save money.

Love how coated bullets handle. I cast and store thousands every week, shoot less than I cast.

[Dapaki]

What’s the big deal? I cast the bullets, handle them one time through a lubrisizer then load them . No separate sizing operation , no shake and bake, no concern about size variation, No concern about brand of paint, just a very time efficient loading operation. Sure they look pretty but so what. The traditional lubed/ sized bullets shoot great and do not lead. Why change? I have had leading problems with many of the commercial Handgun high tech bullets if velocity is high but that may be too hard bullets with a bevel base. What am I missing? Seems like a waste of time with the extra steps for pretty bullets. Do they group better? Or is it just something different for those with much free time.😀 I am not a snowflake so you can flame me. Its all in good fun but I would like to know.

Dogdoc

A couple of items to note: The OP really does not want to know why many of us PC nor does he want to understand anything new or change as better options come to us. Second, Mess is mess. Both lube and PC have mess, nobody on earth can tell me different, I use both and I have rags with lube and rags with PC, so what?

As mentioned earlier, I use both depending on the boolit and the gun. I LLA, I use a Star Lubesizer, I shake and bake and even PC and stand those soldiers up! I even have .22 LR boolits LLA as well as some PC for the same gun and powder!

There is no "BETTER" or "BEST", it all depends on your needs, your expectations and your willingness to seek out something new.

Do PC shoot better than lubed? Depends. My .22 LR shoot hole in hole with LLA. PC is minute of cat head. .223 with LLA is 3 MOA while PC comes in at 1 MOA. Same casting, powder and primer!

My AR-350 Legend does the same 1.5 MOA with PC, LLA, Star or J-words. No.... I cannot explain it, they just all hit the same grouping.

Lube what you want, LLA or PC what you want, I'll keep coating what I like, sissy little fairy colored ***** pills make me smile as I send them down range.

Keep your powder dry....

[Alferd Packer]

I am still successfully casting, lubing while sizing and shooting after sixty years.
Still having too much fun to change.
Can't see any advantage gained except to spend time that I could be using to shoot and also runs the cost up.

[Alferd Packer]

I am still successfully casting, lubing while sizing and shooting after sixty years.
Still having too much fun to change.
Can't see any advantage gained except to spend time that I could be using to shoot and also runs the cost up.

[Lloyd Smale]

I disagree that a PC boolit can't be as finely tuned as a lubed boolit.
I've been able to hit 2' targets at 600 yards consistently with my 1895 (staff sight) and it's a 350 grain NOE RD shape that was GC'd and PC'd. You cannot do that if your system is not accurate to begin with.

the doubters can come over and watch me shoot 1inch to 1 1/8 5 shot groups with a 16 inch ar15 in 9mm. Thats at a 100 yards! Thats as good as most 556 guns will shoot with jacketed. I use a group buy 145 flat nose gas check, pc coated, cast out of 18bhn and aa2. Gun is a cmmg 9mm. that was with a scope mounted on it. It now has a red dot and has no problem hitting 4 inch steel targets at a 100 yards. My 16 inch blackout will do near the same at a 100 yards with the 130 rcbs spitzer gas check with either 20 grains of 110 or 16 grains of wc820. I doubt your going to beat them with lube sized bullets. The 9 shoots better with that bullet then it does with white box ww ball which is only jacketed bullet ive tried in it because i wont waste money on jacketed 9s. the bo does a tad better. Just under an inch with barnes 110s. Would a lube sized bullet do better in that gun? WHO CARES. Even a bolt gun that will shoot 1-1/4 groups at a 100 yards will kill deer (or man) out to 300 yards. By the way those arent freak groups. When i claim a 100 yard group size its the average or 3 5 shot groups. That 9mm ar has amazed about everyone that shoots it. Just shows you what a cast bullet can do in a GOOD gun and shows me that pc is every bit as accurate as lube sized bullets and is no more finiky to load for. Ill add one more thing. that 9mm ar15 has probably 10k of coated and lube sized bullets through it and has never had a brush in the barrel. Went to clean it a couple times and looked down it and it was as shinny as a babies but. I agree with 44blam if your having problems with pc in your gun youd probably have problems with lube sized bullets to. A turd is a turd.

[Lloyd Smale]

I am still successfully casting, lubing while sizing and shooting after sixty years.
Still having too much fun to change.
Can't see any advantage gained except to spend time that I could be using to shoot and also runs the cost up.

it might run the cost up if your already set up. But when star or lyman sizing dies cost more then a lee sizing die and you have to sink 300 bucks into a a star or half that into a lyman (i havent looked at there prices in 20 years because i wouldnt even consider one) then add the cost of lube, harder lead to keep from leading, possibly gas checks for rifle bullets that you can get away without with pc and it doesnt look cheaper to me. Ill put it this way. If your already set up and strapped for money do what your doing. It works and has worked for MANY years. But if your just starting out its a no brainer. Or if you want to make a large step up in making cast bullets more versatile like making HPs that can be pushed at rifle velocity's out of soft lead, or rifle bullets that can be shot at jacketed velocity's even without a gas check or just hate cleaning filthy guns its a no brainer. I showed before that it really takes no more time if you factor in farting with your star or lyman, adding lube plugging holes in sizing dies and a 1/2 hour to clean your filthy gun after a day shooting only 2 or 300 rounds.

For just price of a crappy lyman lubesizer you can buy a toaster oven and enough pc do a 100k of bullets. I can actually see the "im doing it now and its working fine for me argument" Thats fine and if it works for you great. But what you wont do is convince someone that knows better that it is in any way a better system. It has NO advantage over pc. I came late to it and argued your side till i tried it. Doesnt take a baseball bat over the head to show a guy like me that loads to shoot, not because its fun that an old dog can learn new tricks. Id bet my last dollar that if old elmer was still alive and kicking hed be first in line to use it. He was one that revolutionized handgun shooting. He wasnt afraid of new. He invented new.

[murf205]

What’s the big deal? I cast the bullets, handle them one time through a lubrisizer then load them . No separate sizing operation , no shake and bake, no concern about size variation, No concern about brand of paint, just a very time efficient loading operation. Sure they look pretty but so what. The traditional lubed/ sized bullets shoot great and do not lead. Why change? I have had leading problems with many of the commercial Handgun high tech bullets if velocity is high but that may be too hard bullets with a bevel base. What am I missing? Seems like a waste of time with the extra steps for pretty bullets. Do they group better? Or is it just something different for those with much free time.😀 I am not a snowflake so you can flame me. Its all in good fun but I would like to know.

Dogdoc

dogdoc, I am not into the "flaming" thing and you are certainly valid in your question, but the reason some casters PC boolits, myself included, is that you can get a softer boolit to a higher velocity without leading- as long as the fit is right. I am referring to handgun velocities, in general although I have a T/C Encore 460 S&W with a 15" barrel that will do 2100 fps with a 290 gr without any leading and that is with the same mix I use for 45 Colt velocities. Now will it cure all ills? No, probably not, and every caster here has there own opinion and that's what makes us such a great forum for information. When you said that you had leading problems with coated handgun boolits, I immediately think that the beveled base is your culprit. Of all the leading problems I have ever had, the boolit had a beveled base. Now I am aware that a lot of people have had great success with beveled bases, but I am not one of them. Is coating a waste of time? Well it's not watching soap operas, which is the ultimate wast of time but at least I did learn something from PC'ing and that made the experience worth it to me.