I don’t get the infatuation with powder coat and hi tech

[Bazoo]

Folks talk about lube being messy. Well with my 450, it ain't messy. Pan lubing wasn't too bad either really. I can foresee spilling PC and bbs all over the porch however.

[charlie b]

45/45/10 is LLA and paste wax and mineral spirits tumble lube.

I have tried PC'ed bullets in my 30-30. I got plastic fouling and it was harder to remove than lead fouling but not as bad as copper. I only shot like 20 shots. The bullets were sent to me by a member here some years back.

With those bullets I noticed the noses are enlarged, and in my rifle they wouldn't chamber freely unless seated deeper. Seating past the crimp groove is an issue. I crimp my 30-30 loads.

The bullets in question, were done by a member that has good success with it.

Sounds like the bullets you got were bore riding bullets not sized properly to your bore, which was why they were hard to chamber and caused deposits in your bore.

When I use bore riders (which is most of the time) they require separate sizing steps to make the bullet noses fit the bore after coating. Yes, I cast, size and crimp on gas check, then nose size .002" smaller than bore, then coat, then size, then nose size to exact bore size (.302 in my case).

FWIW, when I shoot with lube I also nose size the bullets for that perfect fit.

Yes, this is a lot of steps, but, I have plenty of time on my hands I also like sub MOA results and am still trying for closer to .5MOA.

PS if you do get PC fouling in the bore it is easily cleaned out with acetone. I usually use Ed's Red cleaner, which has a bit of acetone in it. It cleans just as easy as jacketed.

[Bazoo]

The bullets were lee 309-150-F. Far as I know that's not considered a bore riding bullet. I was sent the mould that the bullets in question came from, and lubed with grease they load and shoot fine.

Best I've gotten with that rifle (winchester 94) was round 1.5 inches at 70 yards.

I don't have much interest in small groups though. 1.5 at 100 out of a scoped bolt action rifle comes easy enough and that's all I strive for. Most of the time my shooting isn't from the bench though.

[higgins]

I break down handloads I find at the range. Most of the PC'd bullets I pull with an inertia puller have the coating scraped off of part of the bullet by the crimp; normally lubed ones don't have the grease scraped out of the grooves. I'm probably oversimplifying, and I realize that PC powders are different and reloaders have different skill levels, but tumble lube or grease seem to be more durable. I haven't tried PC so can't speak from person experience with applying PC, loading PC'd bullets, or accuracy testing.

[444ttd]

do what YOU want. i haven't got on the pc wagon, i just tumble or lubersize the boolit. it werks, so why bother. the pc boolit maybe a great way to go, but i like the old way. if your a pc'er, great. if your an old timer, great.

[Iowa Fox]

After 50 plus years of lube sizing I broke down. Last week I ordered a sample pack and BBs from smoke. I've got 4-450's 1-LAM, and 1-Star, We'll see how things go.

[303Guy]

...
I do what pleases me as long as I am not infringing on someone else.

Now, if anyone would answer this is, why would anyone be so interested in what someone else does?
...

Exactly right.

I might be able to answer that one - those of us on the fence are looking for reasons to be drawn in and smell the fumes.

What's of significance to me in this thread is the presentation of both sides of the fence with the pros and cons. I also detect a little bit of ribbing. An example now is that I had never heard of any disadvantages and failures. Good to know about those. I never for a moment thought PC was going to be massively easier and in fact, I always imagined it was going to be a bit more effort while on the other hand, I imagined PC would be conducive to bulk preparation. I see I could be wrong there but that's not the issue really. More importantly, which is more fun to do? Which is better for practice shooting (shake and bake sounds like a contender to me).

I'm thinking that PC could out paper patching in some instances. One problem with the paper patch is wetness. Here in New Zealand it can get pretty wet in the winter months! See the appeal of PC over PP for bush hunting? So why not just go jacketed or plain lubed? You seen the condition of my mud and bush carbine barrel? I won't shoot anything other than PP unless I can force an 8mm Jacked through it (sized down a little maybe) but 8mm is unobtainium in my prts for some reason (or are they?) Anyway, you can see the appeal of cast and PC'd to me. Besides all that that, they look pretty darn pretty to me!

Oh yes, I've mentioned PC'ing jacketed's. That's purely to get them to fit. Worth a try I would say.

[dtknowles]

ive shot thousands and no plastic build up. I dont shake in a container. I cast my bullets and the next day when there cooled put about 10lbs in the tumbler and do some reloading for about a 1/2 hour. take them out dump them on a collator and then dump them on a try and stick them in the oven. While that batch cooks another batch goes in the tumbler and back to reloading. take the bullets out of the oven put the next batch in and repeat. no more time then doing it with a lubesizer when you factor in changing dies plugging lube holes to match the number of lube groves adjusting the punch to line those holes up with every different bullet. Farting around getting your heat set right for your lube and having to clean your gun about every time you go shooting. Cleaning out seating dies that get full of lube. Load development?? I quit sitting on a bench with cast bullets years ago. Dont see a real need for it. Most of us shoot beer cans at 25 yards or deer out to maybe 50 yards and a 2-3 inch load at 25 yards takes care of that and if your gun wont shoot that well without a lot of load developement your best off taking it to the dealer and trading it on a GOOD gun. Only bench work for me anymore is long range rifle stuff. I was just telling my buddy who has forgot more then i know that i dont do it anymore. he told me he learned that long ago. Most good handgun hunters spend there time standing on there feet and practicing trigger control. A 1/2 inch differnce in group size at 25 yards means nothing to me and that said it in my experience it is just as likely to be a 1/2 better then a 1/2 in worse. If it were twice as much work i do it to have the benefit of shooting ANY lead at high velocity without leading and most of all because my gun doesnt turn into a grease gun after 500 rounds at the range. Back when i shot ppc we had a few shoots indoors and my smoky loads angered some that shot next to me. Thats no longer an issue (but to be honest i dont shoot comp anymore either) Add to that no more lube dripped on the bench or floor. No more lube to attract dirt and dust to your bullets. Did is say a cleaner gun

A half inch difference at 25 yards is two inches at 100 yards and that matters when you are standing on two feet shooting to hit a 10 inch plate at 100 yards with a revolver.

My lube sizer does not have a heater, doesn't need one. I never drip or spill lube on my bench or floor. I don't get lube in my seating dies. My reloading time does not limit my shooting time. They don't overlap. Shooting time takes priority if it did. I have plenty of ammo.

I don't think I ever shot 500 rounds in a single day. 200 rounds would be a lot for me and would not be typical. 3" rifle groups at 100 yards is disappointing even with cast bullets. I don't seem to need to clean my handguns every trip to the range. When shooting my bench rest guns I clean every 10 money shots and fire a few fouling shots before starting the next string even with jacketed bullets.

I have been mostly using loads I developed years ago. I did get some new brass and a new mold recently so I am developing a new load right now. It is a bore riding bullet, PC on the nose and it would not fit the bore. I bumped it up just 0.001" and the nose was engraved by the lands.

Lube does not attract dust and dirt to bullets. Exposed lube will collect dust so yet to be loaded lubed bullets should be kept in containers. Rarely do the noses of my bullets have lube on them and when the do I wipe it off. Did you know that some of the most expensive and most accurate .22 LR ammo has a soft sticky lube on the noses of the bullets. You just leave them in the box until you are ready to put them in the magazine or gun.

You see this is why PC is a good thing but not necessarily a necessary thing. Not everyone does the same kind of shooting or loading.

I have said before. I think PC is a good thing. I might even try it some day given a reason.

Tim

[Bazoo]

I don't spill lube on my bench or floor or have lube build up in my dies either when using bullets that have been run through the lubesizer.

[44MAG#1]

dtknowles said. "A half inch difference at 25 yards is two inches at 100 yards and that matters when you are standing on two feet shooting to hit a 10 inch plate at 100 yards with a revolver."

Can you consistently hit a 10 inch steel plate at 100 yards offhand with your handgun? I mean hitting it far, far more than missing it?
Just curious

[white eagle]

What’s the big deal? I cast the bullets, handle them one time through a lubrisizer then load them . No separate sizing operation , no shake and bake, no concern about size variation, No concern about brand of paint, just a very time efficient loading operation. Sure they look pretty but so what. The traditional lubed/ sized bullets shoot great and do not lead. Why change? I have had leading problems with many of the commercial Handgun high tech bullets if velocity is high but that may be too hard bullets with a bevel base. What am I missing? Seems like a waste of time with the extra steps for pretty bullets. Do they group better? Or is it just something different for those with much free time.😀 I am not a snowflake so you can flame me. Its all in good fun but I would like to know.

Dogdoc

wait till you have been doing this awhile
you'll see what the hub bub is
no messy lube gumming up everything
its quite refreshing really

[Green Lizzard]

If it was as good or better you would be seeing it on the line at matches(you don't) and they record and list everything they do, I do PC and have even shot matches with it, sometimes it's almost as good, never better, most of the times it works good to make a bullet fit better when it's a bit undersized. For hunting and plinking I think it's great and I still use it for that

Bill

[dtknowles]

dtknowles said. "A half inch difference at 25 yards is two inches at 100 yards and that matters when you are standing on two feet shooting to hit a 10 inch plate at 100 yards with a revolver."

Can you consistently hit a 10 inch steel plate at 100 yards offhand with your handgun? I mean hitting it far, far more than missing it?
Just curious

That depends on what you consider consistently. The handgun is a Dan Wesson SuperMag in .357 Max. with an 8" barrel and iron sights. Sometimes I miss the plate. 3 or 4 hits out of 5 is typical until I get tired which does not take long. I have done 8 hits in a row. Sometimes I miss the plate a lot. The first time I shot the plate I was shooting off a rest to get the hold over and when I hit the plate a few times it got the attention of some of the other shooters. I reloaded and stood up and the very first standing shot was a hit. I went on and got 3 hits out of five. I left the range feeling pretty good that day.

Tim

[Gunslinger1911]

***** You see this is why PC is a good thing but not necessarily a necessary thing. Not everyone does the same kind of shooting or loading. ********
Tim[/QUOTE]

THIS, right here, says it all.

My post above was a mile long trying to say this.

[dtknowles]

wait till you have been doing this awhile
you'll see what the hub bub is
no messy lube gumming up everything
its quite refreshing really

You are doing something wrong if you have messy lube gumming up everything.

Tim

[bmortell]

What's of significance to me in this thread is the presentation of both sides of the fence with the pros and cons. I also detect a little bit of ribbing. An example now is that I had never heard of any disadvantages and failures.

disadvantage is mainly time. unless you dont mind visual imperfections in the paint people have ways of quick bulk processing. sometimes the size change hurts instead of helps like one of my bore riding 30's jams rifling after coating. actual failure of the coating doing its job shouldnt be a problem much if one uses fresh or cleaned boolits, proven powder and baking recommendation and boolits fitting the gun properly. for example someone gets some color from a company thats probably the first time its ever been tried for this purpose, instead id recomend a 3 sample pack from smokes in primary colors then you can make your own colors when you want without trying anything new.

some small things when you re-melt coated leads it dont smell great so you want to get a flux fire going on it quickly. in some situations a lube grove depends on the the lube being in it to keep shape otherwise it can exit the muzzle with 1 large bearing surface, unsure how much this matters. seating my coated boolits used to feel grippy when i dry tumbled cases but stopped when i started wet tumbling, but others didnt seem to have this problem. about all i can think of. at the moment im just happy i can go deer hunting with OD green bullets. last year i tried bright orange and all the deers ran away

[Grump]

[snip] Don't have to change lube for different velocities either. [snip]
Slim

Well, that Quest thread/project was supposed to address that with a lube that worked from about 10F or lower all the way up to 110+. I think that SL-67B was one of the better results. There was also an SL-71 or so shortly before it fizzled out. I'm also after peak accuracy out of the bullseye handguns. PC etc. are getting more popular but since my guns shoot 2-1/2 inches at 50 yards, I don't have the "room" to play with something that seems to add at least a half-inch to group sizes out there. Unless you're buying what someone else coated, I'm with dogdoc and still ain't so interested.

[JM7.7x58]

If it was as good or better you would be seeing it on the line at matches(you don't) and they record and list everything they do, I do PC and have even shot matches with it, sometimes it's almost as good, never better, most of the times it works good to make a bullet fit better when it's a bit undersized. For hunting and plinking I think it's great and I still use it for that

Bill

I tend to believe that lube when properly tuned, and at the right temperature, and after a few fouling shots will always provide slightly smaller groups than PC.

Yet, “lube flyers” aren’t a thing with PC. PC doesn’t melt on hot days. It doesn’t need a fouling shot. What PC will do is reliably give the same accuracy on August 15th at the range, as it will on November 22nd (which happens to be the last day of deer season where I live). First shot reliability is more important for some situations. There are no fouling shots while hunting.

Is PC the best tool for winning bench rest matches? Probably not.

When making a decision between lube or PC I try to remind myself that there is a reason the magazine is called the “Fouling Shot.”

JM

[Grump]

[snip]
Can you consistently hit a 10 inch steel plate at 100 yards offhand with your handgun? I mean hitting it far, far more than missing it?
Just curious

With the .45, the .357/.38Spl, and the .22, all with the right ammunition.

The .40 S&W? Lucky shots. Gave up on load development for that one years ago.

The .38 S&Ws? I know better than to try.

[tmanbuckhunter]

I do both. For rifle I've found it to be a mute point... I rarely exceed 2300 FPS, and rarely need an alloy above Lyman No.2, and have found to get far better accuracy with lubrisized projectiles. For tumble lube bullets and pistol bullets though, it's the only way to fly.