New to using a 'PEEP & GLOBE' at 50 yards...

[uscra112]

Some .22 shooters say that you have to shoot half a box of any new type of ammo into the backstop before shooting for score. "Conditions the bore", they say. I have never been a good enough shooter to prove it myself, but I do it anyway, when I can.

[OS OK]

When I change from the Copper wash to lead is the only time I run a bronze brush with the Butches Bore shine stuff...then plenty of wet and dry patches after.
When I do that, I noticed that it sometimes, most of the time needs at least 10 warmers to shoot back in. So far I'm getting the best of the rifle with a clean chamber to start and a dirty, dry patched only barrel...me is thinking?
But...there's a limit to how many shots I can get before it starts to open the groups...last count was upwards of 75 shots but I don't have that number really nailed down yet. I suspect it'll be a different number with the copper wash & the lead & wax lubed.

I get the best trigger work from pinching the trigger and keeping that arm completely off the wrist of the rifle. Why have that potential weight there to influence the release?
Even the article above mentions keeping the thumb off the top of the wrist of the stock when shooting.

(("The thumb should be along the side of the stock, not over it; in fact it should form a gauge to keep the trigger finger in such a position that the tip of the finger comes naturally just onto the trigger." . . . H M Pope))

My solution with this 2 lb. trigger is this method, I never used this before but it sure is clean!
2 pounds pull is almost nothing, I just increase pressure as the sights align correctly and about the second or third increase it goes off and surprises me.



My fingers against the stock is the only pressure I put at this point, just barely snugging the rifle to the shoulder and no part of me is 'on top' the stock at all but the cheek weld. The rifle is against my shoulder for a 'door stop' so to speak...hope you get my meaning there?

So far this is working well but I still have side to side and up and down variance in the stock weld...that's my big concern now, getting that feel exactly the same, that pressure under the cheek exactly the same each time.

[1066]

Some .22 shooters say that you have to shoot half a box of any new type of ammo into the backstop before shooting for score. "Conditions the bore", they say. I have never been a good enough shooter to prove it myself, but I do it anyway, when I can.

I shot a lot of competitive .22lr prone match rifle back in the 1960-70-80's all with sling and aperture sights. My competition rifle was a BSA Mk2 International, and using Eley tenex ammunition, was quite capable of shooting a max 100 every time (my average over the years was about 96'ish, county level stuff. During that time almost no .22lr match shooters cleaned the barrel or maybe once a year.
Fairly recently I have again acquired a BSA International (MK5) match rifle and equipped it with a scope for benchrest shooting, the rifle is accurate and is quite capable of a clean target, however, now a simple 10 is not good enough, to be in the running you need 10x nearly every time.
After careful experiments I've found that after a real deep clean barrel scrub it takes around 15-20 shots to get back to pinpoint accuracy, it stays at this level for around the next 80 or so shots then reverts back to good, not stunning.
I wish I had know this back in the 1970's.
Although this is only 25 yards it's quite a clean target. (shot with scope off bench)

and 5 shot group from the same rifle:

[OS OK]

Wow! Talking about precision!

[tazman]

Some .22 shooters say that you have to shoot half a box of any new type of ammo into the backstop before shooting for score. "Conditions the bore", they say. I have never been a good enough shooter to prove it myself, but I do it anyway, when I can.

My CZ 457 MTR takes a few shots, normally no more than 10 to get "conditioned" after an ammo change or cleaning. I experimented with several types of ammo and methods of cleaning to see if it mattered on how well I cleaned or how much difference there was between lubes.
If the lube was waxy, five shots usually brought me to good grouping. From a clean, dry barrel, five was usually enough to condition the barrel.
If the lube was oily, it took longer as the oil needed to remove the wax. Usually 10-15 shots. From a clean, dry barrel, the oily lube needed 5-7 shots to condition the barrel.
With copper wash ammo, I was good to go from the second shot from a clean dry barrel and no more than 5 shots when switching from a different lube. It seemed like the dry copper wash cleaned the barrel nearly as well as the chemical cleaners.
Going from copper wash to any lube was like starting with a clean barrel since there didn't seem to be any lube in the barrel to affect any change.
The cleaning I did was a wet patch with Hoppes followed by a couple of dry patches to give a clean dry bore.
Occasionally, I would just run a dry patch down the barrel between ammo changes to see if it mattered. Usually within 5 shots, I was back in the center.
It seemed that it didn't matter a lot if I was switching without cleaning in between brands/types, whether or not I cleaned the barrel thoroughly. It still took about the same amount of shots to get back into a good group after a change of ammo.

Norma Match uses an oily lube. This ammo is made by RWS judging by the headstamp. The only box of RWS ammo I had was lubed the same way.
I tried a couple of different brands of copper washed ammo. None of them were particularly good in my rifle(from a match accuracy standpoint).
All the other ammo I tried had a wax type lube of some kind.

Testing has taught me that changing ammo brands or types, even within match ammo that has the same type of lube, will change your point of impact. Normally by a small amount but sometimes quite a bit. I got lucky in that I found two brands of match ammo that shoot to the same point of impact in my rifle. One shoots really well but is expensive(Eley tennex). The other is close, but not quite as good(Aguila rifle match) and is much cheaper. I will use the Aguila for practice and the Eley for matches.

All my testing was done from a bagged bench rest using a scope. I can hold and get off the trigger well enough to shoot half minute of angle groups or better if the rifle and ammo are up to the task. I have proven this with my centerfire rifles at 200 yards repeatedly. I can see the hearbeat movement quite easily but it isn't enough to open the group more than that.
When using a bench rest, I can shoot really well. Without the rest, I can't hold steady enough to do well. My mind knows what to do but my body can't do it. My standing accuracy is pathetic and I don't even want to talk about it.

[Chill Wills]

Testing has taught me that changing ammo brands or types, even within match ammo that has the same type of lube, will change your point of impact. Normally by a small amount but sometimes quite a bit. I got lucky in that I found two brands of match ammo that shoot to the same point of impact in my rifle. One shoots really well but is expensive(Eley tennex). The other is close, but not quite as good(Aguila rifle match) and is much cheaper. I will use the Aguila for practice and the Eley for matches.

Interesting enough to me, that is the same two brands and match grade ammo I can interchange as well. Maybe others will work too but in the 200 meter silhouette matches I shoot Eley Match for the 150 meter and the 200 meter and I use the Aguila Match for the 50 and 100 meter stages and don"t worry about it. The format of the match is with in a short time-frame you can shoot a few sighters to get the going in the wind before going for the record targets. Any minor settling in or bore conditioning, if there is any, must take place in the sighters and POI remains the same. The Aguila Match ammo is Eley primed and the lube is an unknown but it is of the same look and feel is the Eley.

[Harry Tobin]

@ Chill Wills... Thank you for posting these targets. I have had no others to look at to try to measure where I am. This peep & globe seem like such a good system, so clean to use that I expect much more from myself than what I'm doing currently. At this point I believe that the rifle and the ammo are both outdoing what I am capable of just now.
For me, at this point, I think my cheek weld is key in stopping these strung out groups like I had today.
I am single feeding this rifle so I come up off the rifle for each shot to load...I am a lefty so I would have to come off the rifle anyway to run the bolt even if I were using the little 5 round magazine. The way I see it, it is good repetition to develope my setup to each shot rather than staying on the stock.
Another point is the breath control, the problem with that is that I tend to push it to the last 1/3 of my blown out breath, that's somewhere around 10 or 12 seconds...I know it's a mistake to push it and merely learning to be more disciplined should cure that. I don't like having to come up from a shot without sending it, having to start all over, I am getting better about that and quit 2 shots today that normally I would have pushed.

I went out today, it was a warm 61º just before noon and the wind was in my face but it barely made 2mph when it did move so conditions were great for shooting.
On the other hand, I had the right attitude but just couldn't pull it off today.
Some days it just ain't happening no matter how bad I want it...

Here's the first round, it had promise for the second round but I got caught up in a phone call from a good friend on the East coast and I went cold for the second go-round. That's OK by me, I enjoy talking with my friend as much or more than shooting, anyway it was like starting cold twice but I should have been able to do like you have and just go right into it like your first five cold shots. heheee...I'll get there one day...



I can't call any fliers, it was all my doings!



On the warmer spot you see the first of the first 5 in the first set, again it started out somewhere between 6 & 9:00 and the second first shot marked (2) did the same...what was curious was that I had only that one cold first shot and then the others tried to get right into a good group, they didn't bounce over to the 3:00 side and walk in from there. It must have something to do with going today with a dirty barrel & chamber from Saturday.

I hope more of you will post your targets also...it's the next best thing to having someone here shooting with me. We are always measuring ourselves in most all we do and shooting is no different.

Thanks again Chill Wills.

My friend you’re a breath of fresh air to talk too, you’re doing amazingly well with this!

[OS OK]

My friend you’re a breath of fresh air to talk too, you’re doing amazingly well with this!

"Harry! My lil'brother from another mother! I wondered who you were here in the CB's forum! All the hours we've spent on the phone yakking and I'm still learning more about you Bud! Semper Fi you ole'Greaybearded Buddy!"

It wasn't the one hour fifty we spent on the phone yakkin that cooled my heels...I think it was the 3 or 4 beers I slugged down! heheheee

[OS OK]

These are 3" & 4" spots...



Monday afternoon I wanted to try an experiment...I wanted to see if I could glue a set of cross-hairs into one of my globes.
(Good thing I ain't a watch repairman or brain surgeon....hahaaa...I would'a wrecked a lot of stuff by now, you see the poor job I did here with my big shaky paws...ah, what the heck, I needed to at least try this.)
This is a very fine, thin coil wire used in electronics...to the eye it is much smaller than it appears in this picture.
That fine wire completely blocked out the 3" spot at 50 yards and the 4" was just barely visible...it wasn't anything like using a scope.



I wanted to experiment with some rounds using the cross-hairs and the post...OK, done deal now...it's out'a my system. But still had a fun afternoon of shooting.



I've reinstalled this back into the globe, it's the best of what I have to work with for now...

[1066]

I think you are doing a great job (and enjoying the journey) A couple of things spring to mind. 50 yard .22lr match shooting is fairly standard all over the world, millions of rounds have been sent down range using aperture sights - Over the last about 60 years I've been shooting this match, the size of the black has really not changed at all, the scoring rings have changed, but very little. The front aperture usually used is between around 3.2 - 4.5mm as this tends to give the best balance - as all match targets are proportionately scaled, the sight picture should look about the same at any distance.

I would suggest printing some targets with a 4" circular black for 50 yards shooting. There's plenty available to download and print available.

The other thing that springs to mind is - those groups don't look half bad. Have you any idea of the theoretical ability of your rifle/ammo combination? You may be doing your job perfectly, sight, trigger, follow through etc but have reach the level of the equipment available. ie. Could you do better if you fitted a good scope and shot from a solid bench with sandbags?

This short video shows the difference with using "Match" ammo. I shot this very quick and unscientific test a while ago at 65 yards and as you can see, the the Eley Tenex was the best group by far.

https://youtu.be/JqRw_xDtrFc

[OS OK]

I watched and subbed your channel & gave a thumbs up too...pretty good shooting for the wind that day.

Have you any idea of the theoretical ability of your rifle/ammo combination?

No...not yet, from time to time I get a 7 or 9/16'ths inch grouping and feel pretty good about that. I recon that's one of those rare days when the planets align and I'm holding my mouth just right too...

My original intent was to learn to use the peep & globe to the best of my ability and until I get to that point, I don't feel I can make any judgement calls on this Aguila ammo or the MKII rifle...so far, they're both doing better than I can.

But...that's temporary...in the end I want to have learned to make the most of affordable ammo, measure it in whichever way that is most productive with tight groups, the rifle I am satisfied with, I have no intentions of competing with high $ rigs or their ammo...I compete against myself.

Just having a good time and sharing what I'm learning along the way.

[303Guy]

The theoretical ability of my rifle/ammo combination is very much in dispute. My sights are not the best and my eyes are not the youngest but I at least want to know that it's my shooting ability that's questionable. Anyway, I found a source of Aquila 40gr RN subsonic ammo at 1025fps (it's not match but but it's better than 1140fps std velocity). These guys also have Geco MATCH ammo at 1083fps. I'll just order some of each and try them.

[tazman]

That Geco ammo has very mixed reviews from a lot of different people. It may work for you and it may not. Don't order a lot of it until you have tried some out in your rifle.

[Chill Wills]

T Anyway, I found a source of Aquila 40gr RN subsonic ammo at 1025fps (it's not match but but it's better than 1140fps std velocity). These guys also have Geco MATCH ammo at 1083fps. I'll just order some of each and try them.

I think you are on to something here. The Aguila subsonic could be good and if you can find the Aguila super extra (standard velocity), it is a 40grn lead at 1130fps and some lots of it do very well in the cold winter months. Cold is the enemy of match ammo. it suppresses velocity and can change the dynamic in the barrel. You just have to try it and see. (don't we get tired of hearing that?!) Anyway, that super extra standard velocity is just slightly above the speed of sound and drops down fast to too far from the muzzle.
I shooting competitor friend got a hold of the Geco, likes it and shoots it in the offhand matches in his Stevens singleshot rifle. I agree with tazman that you need to try it before jumping in with both feet.

[OS OK]

Fellas...I have a friend, another ole'Retired'Marine type...who runs a website called 'Dayattherange'... https://www.youtube.com/user/Dayattherange/videos ...Eli is his name.
He's into the high end rifles & scopes & ammo...he has started a 'Hostage' competetion on the internet...for the .22lr's and at 50 yards.

'Can you save a Hostage Challenge'


He is the one who inspired me to dig back into the safe and retrieve my rifles and start shooting them again after so many years of collecting dust. The first challenge he put up (and is still active) was a spot challenge...that's the one I wanted to learn peep & globe and enter but the delivery of my rifle took so long that never happened. The target is also inappropriate for the p&g too but didn't realize that until lately, lines are too fine for a peep.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QBOyTY5fr8 <Dayattherange 22LR Challenge/Callout Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RQZxFiCL40&t=513s <22LR Callout: Semi Auto and Friends Episode

He breaks down the competition into groups of rifles equipped in various ways, scoped, open sights 'irons' and even antique rifles to keep it fair and fun too. You can get a link from here and print your own challenge targets along with the hostage targets.
You'all might give Eli a looking over and see if this is something you'd like to do in your spare range time...I think everyone likes a challenge and a chance to be top dawg with their rigs.
He mentions in one of his videos where the target results are posted but danged if I can find that link this morning...sorry.

[OS OK]

I had a good time today...I found a box of 100 CCI 40gn. sub-sonic HP's...
I thought I had used them all shooting the old Win 67A.
These rounds are scarce as 'Hen's Teeth' out here...prolly everywhere else too.

Anyway I cleaned the barrel with a wet swab and got down to business. At the same time, I used the first 5 rounds to get chrono numbers at the target at 50 yards and then used 10 to get numbers at the muzzle.



I had a brain fart and sent the 1'st of the 5 warmers to the wrong target (BOTTOM LEFT)...oh well, I do things like that & blame it on my age! heheee

Interesting that they only lost 81fps on the trip down to the target, the sonic Aguila lost much more.
Here's the second round...man, I felt like I was going to do very well, I love the sub-sonic's.



I kept fooling with my cheek weld...adjusting the distance from the peep and wasn't getting the feeling that I had it just right.
Finally on the last target I had moved back, brought my shoulder forward a little bit and that felt right, felt like other sessions I've shot well.

Anyway...hahaaa...you see the first four rounds that made a neat little cloverleaf there on the bottom right?
Well, I coached myself real calmly, said "hang in there boy!" and what did I do... I CHOKED ON THE LAST ROUND OF THE DAY!

AIN'T THAT A GAS!

("I have exactly 50 rounds left...enough for another 2 target day...cross your fingers boyz that I don't get that 'choking feeling' again!")

[tazman]

Very nice. Keep up the good work!

[303Guy]

I'd be over the moon to get a group like that. Pity about choking that last one though. Still, it shows that it's coming together for you.

I used those CCI subs to calibrate my chronograph. Well, not calibrate it but check that it's working right. So how come I get obvious variations? I mean, with a suppressor, boolits at that velocity range the difference in boolit crack is very noticeable.

Anyway, talking about CCI 40gr subs, that's what I shot my photoshopped group with. Now here's the thing, I just had another look at that target and what doesn't show on the image I posted is this;



See that top shot? It's got obvious yaw. This image is with a camera while the other image was a photocopy. Could yaw be responsible for the bad shot? And why would it yaw? I did not notice any difference in the report but then it was at the range.

[uscra112]

When one shot yaws while the rest don't, the bullet base being out of square or otherwise flawed is the most likely culprit. Dr. Mann proved this a hundred years ago. The high pressure gas escaping at the muzzle kicks the rear end of the bullet sideways when the base is not perfect.

[1066]

It's good to see these "warts and all" groups - also good to see a series of groups on one target sheet. It's so easy to select a good group from a bunch of groups and claim my ***** shoots 1" groups at 100 yards all day. Also groups where the odd flyer is discounted as a cold barrel or pulled shot is always suspect - they should all count.

Here's a series of six 5 shot groups shot at 68 yards at the same time consecutively. It would be so easy to select the two good groups and crop out the rest and claim my .22 shoots .5moa all day long.