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Thread: New to using a 'PEEP & GLOBE' at 50 yards...

  1. #61
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I've noticed from recovered boolits that some bores do wipe the copper wash off. I took that to mean the bores needed a cleaning and polishing. I should capture some fired copper washed boolits and see if the copper is still being wiped off. Some bores didn't wipe it off. When it does wipe off, it it being smeared onto the bore or just being mixed with the powdery dust in the bore?
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  2. #62
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    303Guy... I think it smears off in the bore. If there's already carbon deposits in the bore I think it gets smeared on them, changing from lead waxed to copper washed and back and forth without a good cleaning...I think it forms layers of this stuff...microscopic very thin layers in the imperfections of the barrel.

    I prefer the waxed lead because from the limited testing I've done so far, the barrel will warm and shoot back in in less than 5 rounds. that's one of the things I've been tracking on the warmer spots. I like running only the dry patch to pick up the carbon left behind before a new session but almost always will use a .17 cal. swab to clean the chamber with a few drops of Hoppes on the mop...then clean the mop and dry it and put it back in to dry the chamber. That's been getting the best results so far but I'm open to suggestions from everyone else about bbl & chamber cleaning. I just don't want to go overboard on that if it's not really necessary.

    I don't know yet just how many rounds I can fire before I see the rifle starting to open the groups from too dirty of a barrel. From too many dry swabbings and continuous shooting sessions.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  3. #63
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    The only ammo I dismantled much of was Thunderbolts. There I could easily find that bullet weight seemed to account for all of it. 20% of the ammo lot I weighed varied +/- a whole grain or more from the average. Pulling the bullets from the high and low groups confirmed that the bullets were the culprit; the high/low spread was exactly the same within the limits of the scale. My digital scale isn't sensitive enough to find variance in the powder charge with any confidence. Could have used my beam balance powder scale but it would have been too slow.* Didn't weigh the empty cases.

    *I have a fine old laboratory balance that is capable of detecting a fingerprint, but it takes over a minute to do one measurement! I don't have that kind of patience when weighing .22 ammo.
    Cognitive Dissident

  4. #64
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    OS OK - Imagine the fun the 19th century black-powder Schuetzen guys had. They'd fire a shot, then take five minutes to clean and dry the bore before the next one. They usually shot 100 rounds in a contest, so it took all day. But it was a relaxed kind of competition. While waiting for a turn at the firing point they'd have a beer and socialize. (I say relaxed, but in those days a top shooter could win a year's wages at a match, and as the day wore on the fear of making one bad shot that would lose the top prize must have been a killer.)

    Among the old .22 prone shooters it was often said that more barrels were worn out by cleaning than by shooting. This of course was after non-corrosive ammo became common. Before that you could ruin a barrel by leaving it uncleaned for just one day.

    Another tidbit: Those guys noticed that the throats of their barrels would wear at the 6:00 position, enough to spoil a good barrel. The culprit was the ground glass in the priming compound. Many a Model 52 barrel was replaced after just one season on this account. Priming still contains ground glass, so I guess it's still a problem.
    Last edited by uscra112; 11-17-2020 at 03:58 PM.
    Cognitive Dissident

  5. #65
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    uscra112... I had my suspicions on those slugs, a tiny bit of lead could make those variances a lot easier than a lack of powder or primer and with the powder or primer I think we'd hear the difference right away and suspect that to be it. Then a lengthy chrono session might or might not identify that as a continuous yet intermitent problem, yah, I agree, it's gott'a be the lead in most instances.
    I've had 2 occurrences with this Aguila (it happened within the first brick I bought) where the report was significantly low...so low that I peered into the range scope expecting to see the round off spot all together and down below the 6'o'clock...you know what I found in both instances? The dang thing was right there in the group...I was amazed and still don't know how to digest that? That happened on the 50 yard line both times.

    Those old Schuetzen guys really were the pioneers...what a great experience to be able to go back in time and mingle amoung them, have some of that warm beer and BS all day.
    *(Among the old .22 prone shooters it was often said that more barrels were worn out by cleaning than by shooting.) hahaaa, that's funny but I bet they are anal about that too.
    I had no idea that ground glass was in the compound, makes sense though but I wonder why it would work the 6'o'clock instead of all around the circumference?
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  6. #66
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    You can still mingle in a way. Join the American Single Shot Rifle Association, or just lurk on their forum:

    http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl

    ASSRA has matches for .22 rifles, including postal matches so you don't have to travel. (Rifles have to be external hammer, and bolt guns are not allowed.) In deference to the age and infirmity of many members, a lot of matches are shot off the bench, but true Schuetzen was shot offhand, at 200 or 220 yards using sights like yours. 100 shots on a dessert plate at that range was typical. They did a lot toward understanding internal ballistics that we take for granted today.

    ------------

    Gravity settles the ground glass residue in the throat at 6:00 o'clock. Then shot runs over it. Takes thousands of rounds to have much effect, but .22 competitors do fire thousands of rounds, 90% of them in practice.

    -----------------
    .22 bullets are swaged from lead wire. Adjustment of the cutoff machines and the swaging dies is apparently a ticklish business, and if you have multiple machines doing it, getting them all to produce bullets of exactly the same weight seems to be even worse. I can pretty much guarandamteeyuh that, if you buy a box of Eley Tenex, the bullets all came from just one machine, and that one run rather slowly so as to preserve its' adjustment longer.

    To brag a bit - the last 15 years of my career was spent working with the high-tech dimensional gages that make it possible for GM/Ford/et.al. to produce engine blocks and heads to incredibly tight tolerances, and do it at a rate of one a minute. (Those machining lines cost half a billion dollars and take two years to build, btw, which is why your new F150 or Chevy costs so much.) .22 ammo is child's play by comparison, but the principles are the same. Identify all the factors that effect your product, measure them intensively all through the process, and tune the process so that it always makes good parts. Those automotive lines literally never make a bad part, unless there's a catastrophic failure of a tool or something, which is extremely rare. When I see .22 ammo that isn't perfectly consistent, I know that decisions about process control are being made to save money, at the expense of product quality. Necessarily so, or all ammo would cost $15 a box, even absent famine times like these.

    My old Dad, who was a process engineer himself, told me: "It's a fascinating profession, but you'll never have cocktail party conversation". So true.
    Last edited by uscra112; 11-17-2020 at 07:06 PM.
    Cognitive Dissident

  7. #67
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Interesting you should tell me all this, mentioning Ford and your father. I just watched, just a few minutes ago a film about the building of the B-24 Bombers during WWII using Ford engineers to speed the assembly there at Willow Run...1 bomber per hour rolled out of that plant with 1,125,000 parts on each one.
    I bet your Father may have had something to do with that?

    BUILDING THE B-24 BOMBER DURING WWII " STORY OF WILLOW RUN "
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2zukteYbGQ
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  8. #68
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    That's an incredible story, the Willow Run plant. For some related reading, "My Life and Work" by Henry himself is highly recommended.

    No, at first Dad had a much more prosaic job keeping machinery that made rope from sisal fiber going. Marines who invaded islands in the Pacific will tell about the nasty, abrasive rope used to make cargo nets. That was sisal rope. Sisal had to be used because our main pre-war source of hemp was the Philippines. They also made an even nastier stuff called "springlay" that had steel strands in it, for ships' rigging. Sailor hated it, but it was all we had. Later he worked at a company that made a crucial kind of oil pump for radial aircraft engines. So maybe he had a hand in it after all, but at three removes.
    Last edited by uscra112; 11-17-2020 at 08:16 PM.
    Cognitive Dissident

  9. #69
    Boolit Master


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    You look through the rear sight paying no attention to it. Focus on the front sight. The aperture, of the front, whether metal or plastic has the hole to focus on. Make the hole the same all around the bull none touching and hopefully the same light around and squeeze the shot off.

    I like a hole in clear plexi-glass the size needed for the bull and distance. I had many of the inserts in different hole sizes and use them. Won many matches that way after using them and never shot the metal ones well as to much distraction in the sight picture.

  10. #70
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer in NH View Post
    You look through the rear sight paying no attention to it. Focus on the front sight. The aperture, of the front, whether metal or plastic has the hole to focus on. Make the hole the same all around the bull none touching and hopefully the same light around and squeeze the shot off.

    I like a hole in clear plexi-glass the size needed for the bull and distance. I had many of the inserts in different hole sizes and use them. Won many matches that way after using them and never shot the metal ones well as to much distraction in the sight picture.
    I think this is where I am now since I have my cheek weld worked out so that it is repeatable...the results have just about plateaued unless I blow the routine like in this last target of the 2" spots.
    This is still the Aguila 'sorted ammo' and this batch was the COAL/fdb sort at .887"...


    This is what I see using the smallest of the front globes in this Williams assortment that came with the rifle.
    The spot at 10:00 is the 2" spot and the 3:00 spot is a 3", both work better for me than a 4" or 6" spot so you nailed it with your advice...thanks...charlie.



    I will be looking to find the plexiglass inserts with smaller globes for the Williams sights.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  11. #71
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    You know, I've been wondering how I might build a peep and globe sight. It seems I might be able to build the peep with great difficulty but the globe I'm not so sure about.

    I found an aperture sight on auction so I'll see what it goes for.

    Anyway, I've been following this thread with great interest.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  12. #72
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    You know, I've been wondering how I might build a peep and globe sight. It seems I might be able to build the peep with great difficulty but the globe I'm not so sure about.

    I found an aperture sight on auction so I'll see what it goes for.

    Anyway, I've been following this thread with great interest.
    Feel free to post anything you come up with right here. Some of these guys are well versed about this system!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  13. #73
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Shame you are not in the USA. Half a dozen sellers have them. Lyman, Brownells, Montana Vintage Arms, Dixie Gun Works. . . . . . . .
    Cognitive Dissident

  14. #74
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Here are the aperture sights I have found on auction, all the same seller.

    Starting bid NZ$55 (US$36)
    Starting bid NZ$65 (US$43)
    Starting bid NZ$70 (US$46)
    Starting bid NZ$85 (US$56)

    I am on a budget so the first one has more appeal. These have no reserve so it's always possible they would sell at opening bid price.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 11-23-2020 at 02:31 AM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  15. #75
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    First...If you have good eyes Peep and globe sights are awesome.
    Second...i have been reloading 22lr for close to 5 years. Along with that came studying the cartridges. You may be surprised that 22 rimfire is HARDER to load for accuracy (consistency) than center fire.
    The match shooters buy batches of 500 or 1000 and test every batch to see which batch works best in their guns.
    There is GREAT variability...
    I have found through research and testing that the crimp on 22lr is one of the very critical factors in the consistency. I made a simple pull tester to measure the weight required to pull bullets from cases. I have found that the commercial cartridges with the most consistent crimp are the most consistent in accuracy.
    Since I have been trying to manufacture match grade ammo, I have been nearly overwhelmed with the precision and consistency required in so many parameters. Match guns can even require different shaped bullets because there is such a wide variety of chamber patterns. It's a tough game to try to produce ammo for.

  16. #76
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    @ 303Guy... It's too dang bad that this is my first Rodeo with this system...otherwise I'd prolly have several of these sights in whole or in part in my junk box...I'd be asking for your mailing address by now to try to help a fellow gunner out. Wished I did but I don't!

    @Traffer... Best I can do so far is make a lot of measurements and sort them, I don't have a custom chamber or custom ammo...just trying to develop some tips-n-tricks to wring the best out of common $5 a box ammo. So far it's been rewarding with this Aguila.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  17. #77
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Thanks for the thought, OS OK.

    I've had encouraging results with Aguila too. Fiocchi seems to be in the running too. My problem of course is that I cannot say whether it was my aiming, the rifle or the ammo but when I shoot two ammos and one produces the semblance of a group while the other a shotgun pattern, one tends to think it's the ammo.

    Pity my rifles don't have scope rails so I can eliminate the variables. I seem to have found an ammo that works best in each of my rifles so now I'm going to concentrate on my shooting and the sights. Maybe I should just place a bid on the one I think is the best option and leave it at that. If I don't get it then so be it.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  18. #78
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    If you can find some Aguila rifle match, give that a try. In my match rifle, it shoots nearly as good as the really expensive stuff and is MUCH cheaper.

  19. #79
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    just thought you might like to see some 3d printed sight parts I've made in the past.

  20. #80
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    3-D printed? The whole sight & inserts? That's a clean looking sight.

    303Guy is going to need a front sight for his peep-n-globe budget build & that looks like a dovetail clamp...could be a ticket for him when he learns the height he needs depending on his rear sight installation...
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check