New to using a 'PEEP & GLOBE' at 50 yards...

[303Guy]

You know OS, the great thing about that rifle is you can put the scope on to check that it's working right. I've picked up the material to make my aperture mount and am considering keeping the scope rail so I can put on the scope to check myself. It's only a 12 power but that seems plenty for me. Or is it 24? Anyway, whatever it is works fine.

[dverna]

Charlie, the "wallet group" is nice but even better is the average of your last five groups...1/2" at 50 yards is excellent.

Glad to see it coming together for you. I hope you repeat that performance next time you get out to shoot.

I am itching to get out but it was 25* this morning with light snow on the ground. NSB has sent me stuff to play with but the weather has been crappy for almost two weeks.

[OS OK]

303Guy . . . I was hoping to leave the Weaver bases on the receiver so long as they don't interfere with the LOS of the peep & globe?

dverna . . . It's kinda ironic to have things coming together now after all this experimenting...there's just one little caveat...I have one last box of the 'tenex' left to use.
I'm waiting on an e-mail to tell me the wholesaler has received another shipment of Eley. Keep the fingers crossed on that!
I hope to score several bricks of Eley's 'Contact', a 42gn. sub sonic...I've had good luck with sub's quite a while back. The few I had shot well...



I haven't used it before & I realize these 'machine rest' test are old...I hope Eley has maintained it's quality control or perhaps improved over the years. This ammo could feed the CZ452 and the MKII.



All this ammo testing & experimenting is getting a bit tedious...I'd like to just go out every day and work on my skill-set launching these lil'Pills.

[tazman]

The reviews I have seen on Eley Contact have been favorable. While not as good as Tenex, it would make an excellent practice ammunition.
This assumes it works as well in your rifle as it does for others.

[OS OK]

The reviews I have seen on Eley Contact have been favorable. While not as good as Tenex, it would make an excellent practice ammunition.
This assumes it works as well in your rifle as it does for others.

I'll try again to get a baseline with the 'contact' on both rifles with it. The CZ542 has the tuner to help if the straight barrel doesn't like it ... the MKII, I hope will, it's liked the slow and heavy before...I'll get a baseline on that rifle w/scope also, then reinstall the peep & globe and go to work practicing.

Then in practice I won't have any further unreal expectations and once and a while might get a 'redneck one'holer' as a cherry on top.

[OS OK]

ELEY STOCK IS IN . . . . This is the second time now that Killough has notified me by e-mail that stock just arrived... https://www.killoughshootingsports.com/154-rifle
and the second time that their computer got overloaded by responses from across the US and slowed to a crawl.

I have been carrying that stupid iPhone around with me everywhere this past month, waiting on this e-mail...this morning I got it sitting here at the Mac and responded within seconds, placed the order within one minute and then their computer was so overloaded it could hardly function...this is BS in the first degree!

By the time I got my order placed and had gone to the shopping cart to check out, they didn't have enough to fill the order, then by the time I adjusted the order, they were out...not just out of the contact but out of everything on their page....(CUSSING LIKE A SAILOR)

Looks like I'm going to continue with some really bad ammo in the future, I imagine this thread will go to heck without some good ammo.

[dverna]

Charlie,

If you want to fine tune your aperture sight skills, one option is to find some "cheap" ammunition that groups well at 25 yards. It is easy to adjust the target size so it replicates your sight picture at 50 yards. With an accurate 25 yard load, you can them determine your accuracy variation using the aperture sight. The other advantages of shooting at 25 yards are first, less wind drift to bugger things up and less walking....important for us old folks....LOL.

I mention this because I am considering a similar protocol for my air gun testing. A poor load at 25 yards is not likely to yield a good load at 50 yards. Wind is a bigger factor in my case and I have about 20 different pellets to test. It makes sense for me to start at 25 yards and move to 50 once a have narrowed down my pellet choices.

In your case, finding a good load seems to have happened with that Tenex. Now you want to hone your aperture combinations/skills and those are not dependent on distance. For example, if you know your 25 yard load is a solid 1/2", any variation in group is attributable to sight picture issues, wind, or technique. With wind effects reduced, most of the variation will be due to sighting and technique. If one set of sights gives you 5/8' groups and another gives 3/4" it tells you which sight picture is working better. If you find a sight combination that gives you 1/2", that is as good as it will ever get.

Just want to keep you shooting buddy!!

[303Guy]

Sorry you missed on that order, OS. Bummer! But as Don points out, 25m or yds is actually quite fine. Going for cheaper ammo is not a bad idea either. One thought I have is shooting ten or twenty shot groups, which I used to do, then looking at the number of hits in the group compared to out of group hits.

Like this one. It's not stellar but then it's open sights.


So here I give myself a score of 12/20 and 6/10. Those outliers are either bad ammo or something going on with my eyes (or just me). Come to think of it, I should repeat that ammo test with a scope since I still have some of it left.

Here in my parts ammo is available but there are still shortages. Some gun shops don't have some of the ammo one seeks. I had to get my Geco Match online and bought the last box of 1000. They still had a few 250 rnd packs. One gun shop had quite a supply of Eley Club so I bought a brick. My Mauser seems to like the Club so that's what it is for. I haven't seen Tennex around at all.

[dtknowles]

Started out this morning . . . just like any other morning, headed out with a new routine doing this 'pre-warming' thing and aiming to gather some meaningful data.

After 30 minutes in the sun the thermometer was only 79ºƒ and the ambient air temp. was 62ºƒ. I thought I might see a little shifting of the groups, prolly see about the same size groups as the day before only shifted some?



This was not at all what I expected to see...those rounds were skipping back and forth between the POA and somewhere out in left field 9 to 11:00.
I started to think I have something loose? Maybe it's the scope mounts, yah...maybe them, when I finished, I headed to the shop to find out about that...



Nope...everything still as I installed it, snug as a bug.
Obviously, the thing to do was crack a cold brew and start 'mulling on the mystery' at hand. I had nothing, I checked the stock clearance around the barrel, checked the stock screws...nothing, everything snug!

Well...I'm thinking that this should repeat itself if there's something wrong. So, I put the rifle and a box of tenex out in the sun with the big thermometer and wait another 30 minutes for the pre-warm.
As I'm heading out to the 50, I'm now thinking that I might see a POA/POI shift also since I took the scope off and put it back? No biggie, right? It can't be that much of a shift.
Ready for some confusion? This time the rifle warmed to 91ºƒ and the ambient air was up to 64-65º...the sun is up a little higher so that made sense to me.
When I saw that first warmer shot I thought I misjudged how far off that scope might really be...then the spots played out like you see them below...



Working those spots with that 24 power scope, those rounds looked really spread out and I was less than impressed with how I was grouping. When I got to the last spot I was pleasantly surprised...I thought..."Ever old'dog finally finds his bone!" That was nice to see...I got me my first 'redneck one-holer', kinda oblong and technically not a perfect one-hole but that was good enough to put a big smile on my mug for the day!

Now...if I could only measure it accurately. I think it's a small group but I dare not try to measure it with a rule and call it what I'm thinking it is. Someone for sure would call "BS on that!"



It may be a once in a lifetime group for this MKII but it made me proud of this cheap little target rifle today.

I think that is a ligit quarter inch group.



While I know it is hard to always spot the center of the holes but I think for my purposes it is better than measuring to the outside and trying to subtract the single hole diameter. You were measuring single holes at .190 so done that way that is a 0.190" group but done my way that is barely over 0.250." Single hole diameters vary depending on the paper, the backer and the distance to the nearest hole. In one hole groups sometimes the bullet barely touches the paper and only on one side of the bullet.

That is a great group for .22 lr at 50 yards.

Tim

[OS OK]

dtknowles . . . Thank you for measuring that, I was kinda hoping it'd be a quarter. It sure ain't the usual for this type ammo in this commercial rifle...prolly it's a one time deal...one of them 'coinkidinks' if you know what I mean

[Forrest r]

That was a very good target you shot!!!!

Not trying to rain on anyone's parade but you should measure groups from the edges on the black smudge marks the bullet leaves on the target. Not the holes themselves.

Typically a 22lr bullet will leave a +/- .204" hole in a paper target (edge of black smudge mark to edge of black smudge mark). I got .199" that day using a tight bbl'd cz luz along with the 28* weather. The cold shrank the bbl along with the oily lube on the bullet was gelled and didn't transfer to the paper as good.

Myself, I'd stay away from that eley contact. It has the cheap paraffin lube and is known for SD's in the +/- 50fps range. Hence most shots will stay subsonic with several per box going supersonic then transonic.

Years ago I shot a lot of 50m free pistol. Between sets with the pistol I'd use 1 of several 4p 22lr rifles I owned and shoot prone 50yd targets. It's relaxing to me to shoot a target rifle prone or offhand shooting a couple 10-shot groups/strings. Anyway I go down and check/reset both pistol and rifle targets then wash rinse repeat.

I shoot a 3rd set and call it a day. Go down and pull the targets, this time the rifle targets had 2 separate groups.

That got me to thinking so the next day I took the same rifle/same ammo back to the range and tested everything over a chronograph. Sure enough the bullets were staying supersonic in the cool morning air. The 3rd set did 2 separate groups because the heat of the day picking up. The slower bullets were going transonic just before the 50yd target. I was using cheap federal automatch ammo/1200fps rated.

[dtknowles]

dtknowles . . . Thank you for measuring that, I was kinda hoping it'd be a quarter. It sure ain't the usual for this type ammo in this commercial rifle...prolly it's a one time deal...one of them 'coinkidinks' if you know what I mean

I will not be a one time deal if you carefully shoot a thousand groups under good conditions. I expect you will get one like that from time to time.

I really like it when people put a scale or something of a known size in the pictures of groups. I don't really care what size people say their groups are I like to measure them for myself. I have checked a few of those in pictures you posted and your measurements are good. I like that you use fractions like half, 5 eights, etc. I don't care much about plus or minus a few thousands when measuring groups.

[OS OK]

Charlie,

If you want to fine tune your aperture sight skills, one option is to find some "cheap" ammunition that groups well at 25 yards. It is easy to adjust the target size so it replicates your sight picture at 50 yards. With an accurate 25 yard load, you can them determine your accuracy variation using the aperture sight. The other advantages of shooting at 25 yards are first, less wind drift to bugger things up and less walking....important for us old folks....LOL.

I mention this because I am considering a similar protocol for my air gun testing. A poor load at 25 yards is not likely to yield a good load at 50 yards. Wind is a bigger factor in my case and I have about 20 different pellets to test. It makes sense for me to start at 25 yards and move to 50 once a have narrowed down my pellet choices.

In your case, finding a good load seems to have happened with that Tenex. Now you want to hone your aperture combinations/skills and those are not dependent on distance. For example, if you know your 25 yard load is a solid 1/2", any variation in group is attributable to sight picture issues, wind, or technique. With wind effects reduced, most of the variation will be due to sighting and technique. If one set of sights gives you 5/8' groups and another gives 3/4" it tells you which sight picture is working better. If you find a sight combination that gives you 1/2", that is as good as it will ever get.

Just want to keep you shooting buddy!!

Thanks my friend, I appreciate the words of encouragement...I may just have to do this with the peep & globe although it just doesn't seem right shooting with the rifle at 25 yards...I understand the process and the better feedback w/crappy ammo but I have to rearrange my thinking some.

I did go by my local GS and found a bulk pack I can practice with...I thought I'd establish a baseline from the 50 yd. line with the CZ452 so I wouldn't expect more than it could produce.
That testing is posted in the other thread... https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...BR-at-50-yards

[OS OK]

That was a very good target you shot!!!!

Not trying to rain on anyone's parade but you should measure groups from the edges on the black smudge marks the bullet leaves on the target. Not the holes themselves.

Typically a 22lr bullet will leave a +/- .204" hole in a paper target (edge of black smudge mark to edge of black smudge mark). I got .199" that day using a tight bbl'd cz luz along with the 28* weather. The cold shrank the bbl along with the oily lube on the bullet was gelled and didn't transfer to the paper as good.

Myself, I'd stay away from that eley contact. It has the cheap paraffin lube and is known for SD's in the +/- 50fps range. Hence most shots will stay subsonic with several per box going supersonic then transonic.

Years ago I shot a lot of 50m free pistol. Between sets with the pistol I'd use 1 of several 4p 22lr rifles I owned and shoot prone 50yd targets. It's relaxing to me to shoot a target rifle prone or offhand shooting a couple 10-shot groups/strings. Anyway I go down and check/reset both pistol and rifle targets then wash rinse repeat.

I shoot a 3rd set and call it a day. Go down and pull the targets, this time the rifle targets had 2 separate groups.

That got me to thinking so the next day I took the same rifle/same ammo back to the range and tested everything over a chronograph. Sure enough the bullets were staying supersonic in the cool morning air. The 3rd set did 2 separate groups because the heat of the day picking up. The slower bullets were going transonic just before the 50yd target. I was using cheap federal automatch ammo/1200fps rated.

Exactly what I've discovered a while back and again today when trying to set a benchmark with some bulk pack ammo...they were dropping back through the pressure wave...
I tested them today, they are in the other thread... https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...BR-at-50-yards

[OS OK]

I will not be a one time deal if you carefully shoot a thousand groups under good conditions. I expect you will get one like that from time to time.

I really like it when people put a scale or something of a known size in the pictures of groups. I don't really care what size people say their groups are I like to measure them for myself. I have checked a few of those in pictures you posted and your measurements are good. I like that you use fractions like half, 5 eights, etc. I don't care much about plus or minus a few thousands when measuring groups.

I am a bit gun'shy about getting too picky about measuring the groups, I'd hate like heck to get a rep for trying to make something look better than it was. I'd rather err against myself.
I know eventually that I'll get a good group or two. The thing is to try and get them more often in succession than not.

[Forrest r]

Myself, I prefer to shoot targets and use scores as a guide/gage as what a firearm/ammo combo can do.

#'s on a target don't mean much unless they are there to try to find out something or are being used to compare results.

I use those test targets with #'s on them to compare the progress happening to that firearm as I do work on them. Shooting 3 or 4 test targets gives a baseline of what the firearm can do. I'll retest with targets as work progresses and I'll compare those #'s to the baseline tests.

Doing this tells me what actually has the most affect on a firearm's accuracy/consistency. It also tells me how much a firearm has improved accuracy wise along with giving me an idea of what kind of scores to expect on a target. Hence when I say the accuracy of a rifle improved +/- 40% like I stated with the cz lux. I know this because I have solid #'s to compare.

The only other time I've ever measured fouling shots and groups to the nearest .xxx" is when I was participating in games over on rimfire central. When a game called for that standard of measure that's what I do then.

Otherwise you get 1 of these:
[IMG][/IMG]

or this
[IMG][/IMG]

[OS OK]

GOOD NEWS, were back in business after all!

Got another e-mail from Eley this morning, they had Match, I gave it a try for 30 boxes and scored! By next week I'll have it...that just makes my day!
Thank You Jesus!

Just check their web-page, looks like they are still in stock... https://www.killoughshootingsports.c...1021_010081054

[tazman]

Thanks for posting this. I managed a couple of bricks, myself.

[OS OK]

Thanks for posting this. I managed a couple of bricks, myself.

taz . . . we gott'a look out for each other these days!

[dtknowles]

I am a bit gun'shy about getting too picky about measuring the groups, I'd hate like heck to get a rep for trying to make something look better than it was. I'd rather err against myself.
I know eventually that I'll get a good group or two. The thing is to try and get them more often in succession than not.

I know that we all like small groups but I judge an gun/ammo combination by its worst groups. I like to know what is the worst the gun/ammo combo does on a day with good conditions. I have a benchrest rifle and load that will always shoot in the low 20's or better at 100 yards in good conditions. I won't win any matches but that is a better gauge of the capability than the best groups I have shot. I think you have a gun there that you will be able to find ammo that will always shoot under an half inch at 50 yards in good conditions.