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Thread: New to using a 'PEEP & GLOBE' at 50 yards...

  1. #581
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Like I said, it was great at 25 yards but not at 50. I can consistently rip one hole in the target at 25 yards with the stuff. When I started shooting 50 yards with it, the groups opened up.
    Like you suggested earlier, the HV Match is almost certainly dropping through the speed of sound before 50 yards, hence the issues.

    Excellent groups with the Aguila. Keep up the good work.

  2. #582
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    I seem to remember doing a weight-sort on Federal "Match" and finding it no better than some of the commodity brands. I think they are just selling the label.


    I'm more than curious to know whether that sizing die wax had anything to so with that lot of groups you got with the Aguia.
    How I wish I had an answer to that . . . I've looked back through several months of targets and can find only this one target that is anything near the same & I am only speaking of that 'warmer spot'. Talking about how a cold barrel, a cleaned barrel or a dirty barrel shoots 'in' at the start of each session.
    This one time I had chased a cleaned barrel with an oiled patch and it changed the way this barrel normally 'shoots in'.



    From the days of endless weight, rim or COAL/fdb sortings........that time period where the shooter was learning a new skill set with this sight system and for that reason alone, I don't think we can put much confidence in judging groupings of any sort, not even the warmer's target.
    I could kick myself for not making better notes when I started with this rifle...this target was from Oct. 16, 2020. We have tried so many different things in the course of this thread that I can't remember the point of this target other than just getting acquainted with the MKII...I had only had it for a month at this point.

    All I can say for certain (hehee, I think?) is that I was working with the same Aguila Super Extra during this time period...



    In an effort to answer that question . . . Here's what I think: (this is leaving the shooters influence totally out of the question)
    * of all the parameters that can affect a cold barrels performance, (clean or dirty condition) I think that the 'friction coefficient' is the greatest variable.
    * I think it changes the 'barrel time' with each successive shot and gives us a wider spread, wider dispersed, grouping as the barrel seasons for that particular session.
    * I've noticed a common POI theme in the dirty barrel so far, the first shot usually starts out between 2 & 6:00 just outside of the 'warmer spot', the rest of the 'warmers' seem to walk in towards the POA after that, but...it also depends on the ammo's characteristics, some ammo is just pretty lousy.

    ** The thing I have not seen with the 'warmer shots' is the first five wander around some and then have 6 ~ 10 pert-near jump into the same hole.
    I don't know what to think about that phenomena, could be a one time thing but on the other hand not.

    * I think the Imperial Sizing Wax reduced the normally wide 'beginning' variation of the 'friction coefficient' and added to the possibility of getting the first sequence of warmer shots to hit closer to the POA.
    I can't say for sure but I think that a seasoned barrel is actually a barrel that has 'lube & lead & carbon' laid down in micro-thin layers together and our cast/lead rounds run on that.
    If we clean the barrel in any fashion, whether removing excess carbon like I just did with a loose dry patch or cleaning to the extreme with a wet patch or mop...we disturb those layers of 'micro-crud' the projectile rides on...

    At this time of the morning and on my 2'nd cuppa-joe, that's my best estimation of what happened.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  3. #583
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    Like I said, it was great at 25 yards but not at 50. I can consistently rip one hole in the target at 25 yards with the stuff. When I started shooting 50 yards with it, the groups opened up.
    Like you suggested earlier, the HV Match is almost certainly dropping through the speed of sound before 50 yards, hence the issues.

    Excellent groups with the Aguila. Keep up the good work.
    Thank you Taz... I appreciate your kind words of encouragement.

    That suggestion about the rounds dropping through the pressure wave is only something that is backed by the 'mind movie' I have formed in my head from watching experiments where they high-speed film that succession of pressure curves/waves around a projectile (or object breaking the speed of sound)....so it's only an 'idea' I have at best.
    This video series that 'Smarter every Day' did started to sort it out in my mind...

    How does a whip break the sound barrier? (Slow Motion Shockwave formation) - Smarter Every Day 207

    https://youtu.be/AnaASTBn_K4

    The biggest 'game changer' in my groupings, I have to attribute to HARRY TOBIN and his efforts to assist me with my 'perception' of the 'sight picture' and trying to deal with the 'diffusion of light' coming to my eye.
    We have spent hours on the video phone measuring and discussing these globes...HARRY has made literally dozens of globes of different sizes and configurations for me to work with, I appreciate that so much...wish I could express my appreciation with better words somehow.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  4. #584
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    It wouldn't be hard for you to find out if the HV Match are dropping through the sound barrier. Put your chrono downrange and shoot a few. At the target, not the chrono.

  5. #585
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    OS, might I suggest shooting a group from a clean cold barrel. You know, clean the bore after each shot. It would be interesting to see if the 'first shot fouler' always lands in the same spot or has a random dispersion.

    I used to shoot a cheap HV ammo with my 512 back in the day. That stuff was accurate out to 100 yds. I didn't clean the bore much though. Not as far as I can remember anyway.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  6. #586
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I've put that chrono at 50 yards several times now...not with the Federal HV Match but with the Aguila Super Extra.
    Box printed velocity on the Aguila is 1,255 fps & on the Federal HV Match it is 1,200 fps





    Both start out above the speed of sound . . .



    It is curious that actual 'sub-sonic' ammo looses less fps than the higher velocity ammo.



    I don't feel well today or I'd go out and do it now just to have the exact numbers for the Fed. HV Match ... perhaps another day.
    The main question is that I don't have any idea what the speed of sound really is here on this 2,200 foot ASL mountain ridge.

    303Guy ... OS, might I suggest shooting a group from a clean cold barrel. You know, clean the bore after each shot. It would be interesting to see if the 'first shot fouler' always lands in the same spot or has a random dispersion.
    I believe we have tracked that shot a long ways back in this thread already.
    Harry Tobin and I were talking about this yesterday...I suggested that it is the 'oxidation of the lead particles' left in the barrel that causes such a friction variation until a few more rounds pass and lay a new & fresh 'crud mix' down to ride on. (crud mix = fresh wax & lead particles & carbon )
    Harry suggested that I start wax patching 'after' the range session is done with a lubed patch of Imperial size wax to protect the bore overnight or for several days.
    It might push out the extra carbon/wax/lead crud and protect what is left with a layer of wax.
    That might show the same thing you mention in reverse?

    I don't know right now boys, I ain't thinking clearly and don't feel well today.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  7. #587
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    As nearly as I can find out, speed of sound at your elevation is around 1108 fps give or take a couple.
    The HV will certainly fall below that number before it reaches 50 yards since the Super Extra did.
    It seems that the buffeting the boolit receives while passing through the sound barrier has somewhat of a destabilizing effect.
    This is known to happen in long range high power rifle shooting. They try to keep the bullet supersonic all the way to the target.

    If I remember my aircraft history correctly, when jets were first approaching the speed of sound, there was speculation that the buffeting the aircraft received when getting very close was frightening to the pilots and engineers. They were afraid that going through the sound barrier might tear the plane apart or, at least, be much worse after passing through. It turned out not to be the case at all. Things got much smoother after passing through the sound barrier.
    Any jet pilots on here that can confirm this or tell me my memories are faulty?

    That suggestion about swabbing with wax after shooting is interesting.

  8. #588
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    True, tazman. Chuck Yeager's biography has some great detail. P-38 fighters in particular suffered some spectacular (and fatal) mid-air breakups in dives, due to the buffeting of the tail by flow over the wing and around the gondola. And they never even got close to Mach 1. The thick wing airfoil had too much drag.

    The faster a bullet starts out, the faster it loses velocity. What isn't intuitively obvious is the faster bullet is affected MORE by wind than a slower one.
    Cognitive Dissident

  9. #589
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    True, tazman. Chuck Yeager's biography has some great detail. P-38 fighters in particular suffered some spectacular (and fatal) mid-air breakups in dives, due to the buffeting of the tail by flow over the wing and around the gondola. And they never even got close to Mach 1. The thick wing airfoil had too much drag.

    The faster a bullet starts out, the faster it loses velocity. What isn't intuitively obvious is the faster bullet is affected MORE by wind than a slower one.
    Thank you for the confirmation. I read that info a long time ago and wasn't entirely sure I remembered correctly.

    That business about the faster bullet being affected more is interesting. I expect a lot has to do with the ballistic coefficient of the projectile.
    Wouldn't it be great to have 22lr bullets with the same coefficient as long range match bullets?

  10. #590
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Not related to BC, except that low-drag bullets are affected less in both regimes. Turns out that windage is directly related only to the rate of deceleration.

    (I can't follow the math either.)
    Cognitive Dissident

  11. #591
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    When you get down to it, so much happens so fast from the time a firing pin strikes a primer to the bullet hitting a target, it would be difficult to follow. A lot happens while the bullet is still inside the firearm.
    It is no wonder we haven't been able to accurately predict and design how to make a rifle that is perfectly accurate all the time. Way too many variables from the ammunition, the manufacturing and machining techniques, to the loose nut on the trigger.
    We can make really good guns but not perfect ones.

  12. #592
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I have some Aguila Super Extra standard velocity, rated at 1130 fps. It shot OK in my dad's Mauser this morning at 25m. My other rifles don't like it too much. 1130 fps is in the upper transonic zone so it's transonic all the way to the target. But even so, it's not bad for plinking at it's price. Their website says that too.

    Speaking of good guns with all the variables - my dad's Mauser produced an impressive group with its rust damaged bore today. I'll post about that in my thread. Thing is, it's a variable that one might expect to ruin accuracy completely, far worse one would think than bore machining issues.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  13. #593
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    OS, I've posted about this on my 510 thread but fitting a scope on my 510 has been a success in that I now know what the rifle can do plus what I can do wrong. That second part you already have covered with your scoped rifle but for me it was somewhat of an eye opener. Not unexpected though but it's hard to imagine how much the gun moves on target and how hard it is to hold target during let-off.

    So a few things I learned were that the rifle can shoot pretty well with ammo it likes, it does sometimes take several shots to condition the bore to a different ammo but not always, and some ammo shoots poorly and even ammo that shoots quite well also shoots poorly at times i.e. has flyers. And my eyes definitely handicap me. On the plus side, I've learned that sometimes I can actually aim OK with open sights! Just not all the time.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 04-13-2021 at 03:41 PM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  14. #594
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I haven't been too active this past few days ... but I did get a couple things done.

    I am still looking into the 'wax patch' idea, tried a couple times to see the 'cold barrel' shot difference & have have had a little success...
    This is 2 dry patches only, the 'warmer shots' take a while to walk to the POA...and they don't seem to settle in within the 10 shots allotted for the warmer.



    Then I tried the 2 dry patches + a waxed patch and got this...here they settle within 5 shots.



    Talked with Harry Tobin about it and then tried it again and got this...again, settling within the 5 shots.



    But I haven't got into a routine where I do the 2 dry patches + 1 waxed patch 'after the shooting session', then do nothing the next day or several days later to see if the wax does anything to 'preserve' the 'barrel condition' so that these last two targets might repeat themselves.
    That would confirm my suspicions (only spitwadding here, I don't know really) about the lead oxidizing overnight in the barrel to cause so many shots needed to 're-season the barrel the next session?

    Some parts came in a couple days early... so I am going to get that scope mounted so I can try to set a benchmark of this rifle's accuracy before I go back to the 'peep & globe'...

    Had to order these...



    So I could mount this Bushnell Elite 4200, 6-24x40 ...



    That'll be the project & experimenting through the weekend...got some great shooting weather going but the grass is growing fast! I've got 4+ acres of grass to mow pretty quick or it's going to be slow going if I let it grow too tall.
    I'll post what I can when I can get some results.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  15. #595
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    GOT THAT SCOPE MOUNTED ... by the time I got it squared away, I had diddled away my calm part of the morning and the wind was building.
    Had to take the globe housing off because it was just too much mass for the scope to ignore...that globe housing weighed 1 ounce, wonder if that'll make a difference in how this rifle handles the Aguila and the Eley Match?



    Sure makes her look different...I had a set of old low rings and they fit just right, very close to the barrel & the riser is just fine for the scope...I was worried about that.



    This is not the 'Wax Patch' routine I want to experiment with, what I did today is different from what I will do about that for the next several sessions, I'll explain later on...
    Once done with the scope, I ran 2 dry patches and followed with the wax patch, then I mopped the chamber as usual.

    This target was used a week or so ago but it was in good shape so I patched it up for this mornings first session and corrected the date, notes & wind.
    Notice how the first 'cold barrel shot' is @ 2:00 inside the 4" spot.
    Cant really evaluate how the groups came out...the wind & gusts were building pretty quick & if I waited too long for a lul, I was afraid I would be cooling what little heat that does collect in the barrel.
    So as far as groupings go, this is an exercise in shooting in the wind.



    There was about an hour between this first target and the next, I sat in the shop & slugged a beer, patched the first target and hoped that the wind might calm some...it didn't, it got worse! I said to heck with it and went for it. I repeated the the patching...I ran 2 dry patches and followed with the wax patch, then I mopped the chamber. I wanted to at least have some idea of how that affected the first cold shot...
    Again, the cold barrel shot was inside the 4" spot down at the 5:00.
    In both targets it is different but it is much closer in than any cleaning routine I've done thus far, that's something.



    I was a little disappointed that I couldn't put together some really nice groups...I had hoped to set the 'benchmark' of accuracy for the Aguila so I could better judge my skill with the 'peep & globe'. I've turned in groups with the peep & globe much better than this many times already but I am patient and will get out early so I can take advantage of the wind when it turns around from the night flow into the Sacramento Valley, then it stops dead for a while and reverses and the heat from the valley starts rising into the mountains behind me.

    Now about the 'wax routine'...at the end of today's shooting, I again ran 2 dry patches followed by the wax patch, then swabbed the chamber.
    Now I don't have to do anything in the morning in preparation for shooting...I hope the wax will protect the barrel in that time between sessions.
    If you remember, my idea of what happens in the barrel when shooting a dirty barrel each day is that the microscopic particles of lead left in the barrel oxidizes overnight or in the several days between shooting sessions. I think it is that oxidized lead that requires so many warmer shots to push it out and re-lay in the barrel with a new fresh coating of what I call the 'seasoning crud'...that's the mix of wax, un-burnt powder & carbon.
    That's the point of the next several sessions, that & set a good accuracy benchmark. I hope to see the first cold barrel shot repeat what it did today and become predictable to some extent?
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  16. #596
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Good to see that scope in place.

    About the 'wax routine' - I've been doing something similar but for a different reason. After cleaning the bores (and I have been cleaning the bores) I have been applying a corrosion inhibiting oil stuff. I've been noticing that the first groups tighten up quite quickly but it's hard to tell with open sights. Now I'm wondering whether I'm seeing the same effect as the die wax. If it doesn't rain too much I'll get to put it to the test on Sunday.



    My reason for using this stuff is that I'm trying to ensure that the bores are completely cleaned - they were all dull when I started out last year. So dull that the copper wash and black oxide coating on the boolits was getting wiped off. As far as I know that's not happening anymore and the bores do like clean and shiny.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 04-14-2021 at 05:04 PM.
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  17. #597
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I noted on this string of targets that when changing from Official 300 to Geco match, there were no first shot flyers or bore seasoning shots.




    When I saw this I thought about your 'wax routine'. Official has what looks like a thick coating of some lube and Geco Match has a visible greasy wax coating.

    I am wondering whether one could use a cheaper ammo to season the bore. Not that Official is cheap - it's the most expensive I have (or had). But maybe going from Geco Rifle to Geco Match. One can see above that Geco Rifle just does not perform in this particular gun.

    Anyway, I thought it might be of interest. Maybe one can figure out which 'wax routine' would suite the chosen ammo the best.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 04-14-2021 at 09:07 PM.
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  18. #598
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Concerning the different waxes used for lube on 22lr. I have found that much depends on the type of wax used on whether the different brands will shoot good groups immediately or not.
    What I have seen is a group opening up and then tightening back up again during the first few rounds of new ammo.
    Sometimes it doesn't seem to make any difference at all.
    The biggest change comes from switching from an oily lube(RWS or Norma Match) to a dry lube(ELEY, Federal, or Aguila). These sometimes take 10 rounds to settle back in.
    Unfortunately, I have not recorded this info. This is just what I remember.
    Next time I take the rifles to the range, I will clean the bore before I go and see what I get.

    For several decades, I never gave this kind of thing a thought. I just shot my rifle(Winchester 72A) and didn't worry about it. All my sighting was done at 25 yards and if I got a group the size of a squirrel's head I was happy. The rifle always seemed to do better than that though.
    This rifle spoiled me in that it always shot twhatever ammo I had to the same impact point regardless of brand or type. It still does this.
    I haven't changed the scope settings in over 30 years and I would expect it to still shoot to point of aim at 25 yards.
    Unfortunately, the groups are not benchrest quality.

  19. #599
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Looking at that Official 300 group that doesn't look at all impressive, I just noticed something. That's a ten shot group. Three of the ten are 'outliers'. I do not know what the shot sequences were but maybe those three outliers were the first three fired, meaning that they seasoned the bore?
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  20. #600
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    The 1'st Wax Patch Experiment... Ok, this kicks it off...(barrel preparation was done yesterday afternoon)

    When the 'warmer spot' came in like it did, I thought..."here we go, I'm going to dial in some good groups this morning'', it was early and the wind was cooperating.
    Then the 2'nd spot was almost laughable & I was laughing when I got to the top right..."can't win for loosing" I said to myself!
    Bottom right was encouraging & I thought..."ok, they're coming in, the barrel is seasoning..." then moved on to bottom middle and I was laughing again.
    I don't really know what to say...I decided I needed to get off this Aguila.



    I had 5 boxes of Eley tenex that I was saving back but thought it would be better to continue with that in this wax experiment.
    I wet mopped the barrel & let it soak for 5 minutes with Butches Bore Shine to remove any copper wash from the Aguila, then with dry patches I dried the barrel and worked a wax patch back and fourth to get that wax film even fore to aft.

    When that first warmer hit where it did, I thought..."aaaaah ha! we gott'er now boys!" and then shot 2, 3 & 4 dive in the same hole over at 10:00. That spun my head some, I'm thinking..."oh...it's just this slower ammo, the group is going to shift"...then shot 5 comes back towards the 1'st...didn't know what to make of that at all...I'm thinking..."the boys on CB's site are going to accuse me of closing my eyes before I send it!" and then I was laughing again...''c'est la vie!''



    Here's the bottom line... I remember from 60's from one of the H-S Science classes that an experimenter writes up his experiment, lays out the procedure and then he makes his best estimation of what he is going to see happen..then he moves on to experimenting. "You don't know till you find out." rang in my head heading back into the shop.
    But...as I was sipping on a cold beer this afternoon, studying the warmers & the groups & trying to make sense of this so far...the next thought I had was . . . reading one of y'all saying..."don't fool with the barrel, just shoot till it seasons and get on with it!"
    I'm starting to think that was some wise words!
    But I prepped the barrel anyway for tomorrow...were going to get some data collected before I have any more ideas!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check