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Thread: New to using a 'PEEP & GLOBE' at 50 yards...

  1. #41
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Just did a tiny bit of research on the leade in a 22lr chamber/barrel. As you suggested, not much leade but I didn't find a description either.
    The remark made said that the rifle shoots better if at least the front driving band of the bullet engraves the rifling when chambered. That doesn't leave much room in front of the chamber for anything but rifling.
    It sounds like that tapered cone isn't very long or it wouldn't mark the driving band when chambering.
    Some number I have seen describing the chambers suggest a 30 degree taper from the chamber to the bore. That is pretty steep and would definitely engage the front driving band on most bullets.

    The resulting groups of your testing suggest that the more the bullet is engaged in the rifling when chambered, the more accurate it might be, at least in your rifle.
    The longer the front drive band, the more the bullet is engaging the rifling, the better the group. Possibly due to better alignment with the bore.

    I know my CZ 457 MTR is supposed to have a match chamber. When I close the bolt on a cartridge, I can feel the bullet engage the rifling during the last bit of bolt travel.
    Last edited by tazman; 11-14-2020 at 11:56 PM.

  2. #42
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    Just did a tiny bit of research on the leade in a 22lr chamber/barrel. As you suggested, not much leade but I didn't find a description either.
    The remark made said that the rifle shoots better if at least the front driving band of the bullet engraves the rifling when chambered. That doesn't leave much room in front of the chamber for anything but rifling.
    It sounds like that tapered cone isn't very long or it wouldn't mark the driving band when chambering.

    The resulting groups of your testing suggest that the more the bullet is engaged in the rifling when chambered, the more accurate it might be, at least in your rifle.
    The longer the front drive band, the more the bullet is engaging the rifling, the better the group. Possibly due to better alignment with the bore.
    Exactly. This is actually true of all target chambers, but chambers for bolt actions tend to be smaller at the back, which marginally improves alignment.

    Go back and study the chart posted at post #23. When I reline a single shot, I use a Lilja reamer, which is more typically used for bolt guns. The Stevens and Ballard actions I prefer will press the round snugly into the leade as the breechblock closes, same as the bolt does as the lug cams the bolt shut. Remarkable how accurate a dinky little Stevens Favorite can be when chambered this way.

    A problem that rifle mfgrs. face when choosing a chamber is the possibility that shooters will choose one of these hypervelocity rounds like the "Stinger". These have a slightly longer case than normal 40 grain ammo, and if the chamber is too snug/short the brass gets crowded into the leade. Pressure spikes can result. So "sporting" rifles tend to have longer, looser chambers.
    Cognitive Dissident

  3. #43
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    OS OK is on a track which AFAIK hasn't been explored before, at least with respect to bulk ammo, i.e. whether variance in the depth of engagement of individual rounds with the leade has any detectable effect on the point of impact.

    (No doubt the Eley people know something about this, but I haven't seen anything published.)
    Cognitive Dissident

  4. #44
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    https://i.imgur.com/swwznFY.jpg

    This is the image of the chamber dimensions from the 2'nd page post number 23, reamer sizes.
    It looks like the front of the drive band is coming into snug contact in that taper even before it would engage the rifling?

    I can't figure how the cartridges fit, maybe one of you guys can explain.
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  5. #45
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Remember, the rifling is grooves in the barrel. The taper is just on the chamber end of the lands. The lands aren't really all that tall. Just enough to grip the bullet well.
    The lands actually deform the bullet slightly when they grip the bullet. The groove diameter is the same size as the bullet or slightly smaller.
    Probably why 22lr bullets are such soft alloy.
    The picture exaggerates the height of the rifling.

  6. #46
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I tried shoving several of these Aguila in by my finger tip, they pushed in without any force at all. I don't think any of the targets I've posted were shot with the drive band engaged in the rifling. That's troubling to me, I don't know what to make of it? This last target, I thought was going to reveal something...I kinda thought the drive band must be centering itself snug in the long end of that tapered cone...I've done so much measuring lately I can't remember what I measured for those rounds I tried. I'm a bit rum-dumb here lately looking at all these numbers.
    I pulled the several out and saw no slight engraving whatsoever.
    Guess I'll have to look at it fresh tomorrow.
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  7. #47
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    OK, that tells us that the chamber in this rifle is long, relative to the ammo, even that with the greatest length base-to-drive band. You may therefor be at a dead end with this particular rifle.

    Something that has helped me in the past is to bump the bullet diameter up using a Waltz die. For my long-ago testing I had built a homemade die that works like the Waltz. It shrank groups from the test rifle, a stock-barrel 10/22, by about 20%. Reason being that the "sporting" chamber needs a .225 bullet to fit, but the ammo was .223 or .224 out of the box. The control diameter of my tool was reamed to .2250. If you have a lathe, or access to one, it's not a difficult job, but you will have to buy a couple of reamers at $25 a whack. I can send you the necessary drawings.

    Here are some old threads on .22 bullet bumping on the forum.

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-22-Sizing-Die

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...35#post2745735
    Cognitive Dissident

  8. #48
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    I can't help you with groups. You are doing far better than I think I could with that set up. But if you do use your sights in a moveable fassion, like changing it for distance. You might want to look at a Gib Lock screw. I use those sights on my muzzleloaders. We have the yardages marked on the sight. When we shoot different yardages we just loosen the gib lock and adjust the elevation knob. We keep the sight tight that way and don't need to carry a screw driver to adjust elevation.




    You might also want to look at better inserts for the globe. I don't know if these would work or not but I use these in my muzzleloader globes.



  9. #49
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    The leade angles are " 1*, 1-30* (that ='s 1 1/2*), 2*

    uscra112 is correct, there's another dimension that should be considered when looking at the over all picture. Most blammo ammo/plinking fodder 22lr ammo is actually .222"/.225" with a lot of them actually having a taper to the drive bands. You know the same thing keith didn't like about what lyman did to his design.

    Not the greatest picture by any means.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    The top round is the ww 333's and is .880" long. That bullet was chambered in an early (1993) cz luz. That cz lux has a standard european 18mm sporting chamber (.708" on the C measurement). This bullet is a good match for a mass produced sporter rifle. The chamber fully engraves the top 2 drive bands.

    The bottom round is the old ww dyna-point & .855" long. That bullet was chambered in a win 52 sporter and again the riflings engraved the bullets top 2 drive bands. This same bullet would fall in and out of the cz lux due to the longer chamber and small tapered front drive band. This rifle is 1 of the miroku remakes that have the browning chamber.

    I like to use the lilja reamer myself, that chamber is an excellent trade-off that does extremely well with low to mid-grade match ammo.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Something to keep in mind.
    Full blown target rifles are tight, strait & have low run-out starting with the tight bolt face that doesn't allow rim movement to the locking lugs that are in alignment with the receiver/bbl face. Production rifles not so much that's why you'll find that most blammo ammo has tapered drive bands and match ammo does not.

    When testing different ammo's in a 22lr sporter/long chambered rifle I like to hand chamber a couple rounds and see if they fall into the chamber or stop short and need force to seat all the way. If the ammo falls in then all the weight sorting, rim measuring, oal measuring in the world isn't going to help. Hence the term blammo ammo.

    Low grade rimfire rifles start with the bullet's chambering/engraving/alignment. High grade rimfire rifles start with consistent ignition and then work their way to the front. Any rifle can benefit from re-working the bolt. I cut the groups down by +/- 40* by re-working the bolt on that cz lux. The other thing you should do is work on your rifle/ammo testing/skills @ 25yds. Doing so take a lot of operator error out of play along with telling you just how good your rifle is. You get everything dialed in at 25yds and your targets should look like this target that has 4 5-shot groups on it.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    That's what that cz lux could do with low grade match ammo with 10+ mph winds and 31* temps consistently after the bolt rework. Not bad for a pencil bbl'd sporter rifle with a sporter chamber and a schnabel fore-end. That's what I consider dialed in for a sporter rifle and after that it was ready for silhouettes.

  10. #50
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    OK, that tells us that the chamber in this rifle is long, relative to the ammo, even that with the greatest length base-to-drive band. You may therefor be at a dead end with this particular rifle.

    Something that has helped me in the past is to bump the bullet diameter up using a Waltz die. For my long-ago testing I had built a homemade die that works like the Waltz. It shrank groups from the test rifle, a stock-barrel 10/22, by about 20%. Reason being that the "sporting" chamber needs a .225 bullet to fit, but the ammo was .223 or .224 out of the box. The control diameter of my tool was reamed to .2250. If you have a lathe, or access to one, it's not a difficult job, but you will have to buy a couple of reamers at $25 a whack. I can send you the necessary drawings.

    Here are some old threads on .22 bullet bumping on the forum.

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-22-Sizing-Die

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...35#post2745735
    I read up on this some time ago, first discovered the Paco Kelly device and shrugged at that for obvious reasons but the principal is sound for the brave among us.
    The Waltz setup is what I'd go for if I were to spend the $ for reshaping the lead.

    Remember, I set up a set of goals to start & even before this cheap lil'rifle was delivered to me.
    I wanted to learn this shooting technique with peep & globe and do it well.
    I wanted to do it without all sorts of aids on the bench, ie. sand bags of various designs or adjustable front mechanical devices and certainly not with a sled of some design. All that just seems wrong to me, I want to put the weight of this contest with myself on the shooter's ability to perform with just the tripod and my hand for rear elevation control. That may seem like I am cutting myself short but it's an old'skool attitude I grew up with and it stuck, I have to live with that.
    Finally, I wanted to see if I could, at my age and with only one good eye, do a respectable job of finding affordable ammo and somehow sorting it to get consistently less than 1" groups at 50 yards.
    Often I sit up at the bench and look at that tiny little 2 to 4" spot 50 yards away and am amazed that I can even keep them on the black itself, then I have targets come back looking like this last one and think to myself that this lil'rifle is doing a tremendous job of shooting. (((So many times I think I see folks spending $'s for success when they haven't squeezed the most out of their talents in sending rounds with the equipment they have to start with...I have nothing against the hi-$ approach but it's just not my way of doing this, I hope you understand?)))
    I don't want to get caught up in the arms race only to find this rifle jammed into the back of the safe with some custom hi-$ rifle on order along with all the accoutrements that line the bench and using such hi-$ ammo that I sit back and wonder why I'm not using center-fire since I have so much more control over the quality of the ammo.

    I realize that the clean one hole is possible...'if' you chase it with a lot of investment but I have to stick with my original plans...it's RedNeck I know that but it satisfies me to no end daily...for the half hour I'm on the bench and then the hour or so I am in the shop critiquing my progress and mulling on the next days shooting . . . "The entire crazy world around us today simply goes away somewhere and I find myself in complete bliss & blessed to have the opportunity to do this simple task before me."

    I hope that what I have said doesn't offend anyone, I need all the input and help I can get to accomplish what I am doing and I appreciate everyone's help and suggestions, it all boils down to satisfying this ole'hard-headed Texican and that is all that matters, honestly...I think I am achieving my goals and am having a ball in so doing.
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  11. #51
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Having a ball is the main goal in shooting as far as I am concerned.
    I am not now and never was capable of shooting decent groups without a rest of some sort.
    I admire the skills of those who can and appreciate what it takes to do that.
    Personally, I am working on getting my rifle to shoot that one hole group from the bench. Given the groups I can shoot with my centerfire rifles, I should be able to shoot .250" groups at 50 yards. I have not done so consistently yet.
    I am working on it.

    I like the research you are doing on ammunition and technique. I know I can learn from it. Please keep up the good work.

  12. #52
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    Having a ball is the main goal in shooting as far as I am concerned.
    I am not now and never was capable of shooting decent groups without a rest of some sort.
    I admire the skills of those who can and appreciate what it takes to do that.
    Personally, I am working on getting my rifle to shoot that one hole group from the bench. Given the groups I can shoot with my centerfire rifles, I should be able to shoot .250" groups at 50 yards. I have not done so consistently yet.
    I am working on it.

    I like the research you are doing on ammunition and technique. I know I can learn from it. Please keep up the good work.
    Thanks TAZ...

    I am having a good time! I admire your goals too but I'm staying in the amateur iron sighted box...I have a scope in the safe that'd prolly make a good'un for this lil'rifle but I'd have to chase that with expensive ammo to prove this rifle is a contender with the likes of you fella's custom rifles...I don't think it is capable of that at all or it'd be in the contention and would have been recognized for it's accomplishments. It's just a good starter/training rifle that'll teach me some good technique with the peep-n-globe.

    idahorn ... thanks for the information and the picture of those upgraded globe and posts...I've been kinda searching for more to try out.
    I like that Gib-lock but still have to take the screwdriver to unlock the individual adjustments for windage and elevation.

    Forrest r ... I really appreciate all the info in your post and the education you and others are giving me.
    Last edited by OS OK; 11-15-2020 at 12:07 PM.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  13. #53
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I did a little more testing to see what I could find out.
    I tried a number of different brands and types of ammo in my CZ MTR and looked to see if and how much the rifling was engraving on the bullet when chambered.
    Short answer is it does on everything I tried. The lands are narrow and don't show up really well so you will need to look closely to see tham but they are there.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    From left to right in pairs, Aguila rifle match, Aguila super extra, Federal target, Norma Match, and Winchester 36 grain hollow point from a 222 box.
    They all seemed to engrave about the same. The Aguila rifle match and the Norma match slightly farther down the driving band than the others. I am not set up to measure the driving band length so can't supply those measurements.

    I recently acquired a couple of boxes of high end ammo. Eley Tennex and Lapua Xact. Just for grins, I weighed ten rounds of each individually. All the Eley and all the Lapua weighed exactly the same as the others from the same box. The Eley weighed 50.9 grains. The Lapua weighed 51.2 grains
    It was interesting to change each cartridge and watch the beam return to exactly the same spot for each brand.

    I measured the diameter of the front driving band, the main body of the bullet, and the case.
    They both measured identical. Front band was .223, main body was .224, and the case was .224 mouth to base.
    The Norma Match measured the same except the front band was .224 just like the rest of the cartridge.
    The rest of the brands measured similarly except they were slightly less consistent cartridge to cartridge. Measurement varied less than .001 though so not too much difference.

  14. #54
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Taz... this is very interesting, thanks for taking the time to investigate and post it here.
    You can't imagine how much I wished I could see engraving in my chamber! It makes me start to rethink the value of that Waltz die set so I could at least increase the diameter of that drive band so it'd at least jam into the cone...maybe that'd be second best thing since I can't jam the lands?

    I am guessing that my next sorting should be a two fold sort...'weight & COAL(fdb) sort' (Cartridge Overall Length to front drive band). Maybe that'd give me some help on the ammo side? One problem in weight sorting is that this common ammo is all over the map, certainly nothing near what your weighing with that good stuff. I am not certain the Aguila is this bad as I haven't weight sorted it yet to find out...but...you can see how this 'CCI Sub Sonic' weight sorts and I anticipate the Aguila doing the same...I think I'd have to have groupings of weight spreads to get this done efficiently?

    ***This jewelers scale only reads in even numbers in the 'hundreths' of a grain column, that's why you see the spaces between weight increments
    .
    Maybe sort like I did this Blazer ammo with a spread in each batch?


    I wish I could explain my better groups somehow...sure, I did my part but the ammo & the chamber are not compatible as far as the ammo being concentric in battery, I want to say that I see a difference by this latest measuring system but can't...all these good groups (for me) have to be flukes at this point.

    Yesterday I had high hopes to turn in some good groups.
    Instead I got into a dog-fight with me focusing on that globe exclusively. I kept refocusing on the spot and then back to the globe.
    Had a lousy 'group' day but I did observe a couple 'important to me' type things...

    1> When I do the cheek weld correctly and come down to anchor it and see my first sight picture through the peep, I noticed that the rear rest needs but little & subtle adjustment. At this point I am focused on the globe and in the first few seconds when the alignment is made that target just pops out at me inside that globe. It's like it magnifies itself somewhat? I know it doesn't but there is something going on there. I fight the urge to send it in that first 3 to 5 seconds setting up the sight picture...I'm thinking I should spend some time doing just that, 'sending it when it appears like this so quickly even though I have much longer in my breath window, I have this 'check & double check' thing going on and it's frustrating, I think I loose opportunity right off the bat for a tight group.

    2> When that happens I find myself hesitating to execute the shot...( I'm thinking to myself..."too soon to send it, check that again, make sure it's centered" ... & that's been where I start focusing on the spot...that's where things go south quick. If I don't stop the shot and start over I'll send it anywhere as you'll see in Sundays lack of performance.

    I shot two rounds on the same target, the second round with repairs to the spots after I measured them...It was a nonplus day of shooting.


    **I had second thoughts about wet swabbing the barrel, I started to just dry swab with a patch as usual but something made me go ahead and do that...I figured it'd settle in within 10 shots so I did it anyway, that was stupid! I thought that maybe wet swabing was part of the problem today but can't say that...I put the 'goof-up' squarely on my lack of performance today.



    "Oh well . . . I have to show the bad with the good'uns or I'll end up just 'BullSpitting' myself!"
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  15. #55
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    Thanks TAZ...


    idahorn ... thanks for the information and the picture of those upgraded globe and posts...I've been kinda searching for more to try out.
    I like that Gib-lock but still have to take the screwdriver to unlock the individual adjustments for windage and elevation.

    Forrest r ... I really appreciate all the info in your post and the education you and others are giving me.

    The Gib Lock screw is the one that locks the elevation.

  16. #56
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Yes, I assume that the gib lock screw would replace this large screw you see here on the left of the sight, that one locks the entire sight from the up & down adjustment.



    There are two more very small set screws facing the shooter that lock the windage and elevation pawls too. If they aren't loosened the Pawl makes clicks but it doesn't move the sight. That's why I keep bringing the screwdriver out there.
    I'm done adjusting, right now I'm working on that cheek weld so adjustment is not needed...but I do check their tightness every session.
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  17. #57
    Boolit Grand Master

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    One thing I seen older shooters add was a ring cut from an opaque milk cartoon between lock ring and body this was sized so the Id hole was snug on the threads of the appeture lock ring and the od was just large enough to give the desired line of white between rear aperture and ring.

    A set of dividers would lay one out quick and then scissors and an excto knife.

  18. #58
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I mentioned the other day that I thought I should 'weight sort' one of these measured groups of 'COAL/fdb' (Cartridge Overall Length/to/ front drive band) to see what the spread might be and to see if I could get a better grouping by sorting this way.
    It's labor and time intensive but when your curious about something you have to find out. I weighed them on a jewlers scale



    I don't know whether or not this spread speaks well of this Mexican Aguila ammo but it looks at first glance like it ain't too bad? Someone will have to comment about what they've measured with other brands. I know Taz has done this with the hi-$ ammo and it did not vary on a beam.

    I mentioned also about how that sight alignment just pops out at me many times more than not when I first anchor the cheek weld and ... that I thought I might be missing the best opportunity to send the shot then instead of getting into a dog-fight with myself about 'checking & rechecking the globe & target alignment' and then breaking the shot.
    Today I wanted to test whether or not I might do better if I would concentrate on taking that first alignment, to me it seems too quick to send it but I applied that idea to today's training session too.

    Soooo...what you see here is two things being changed in this session...this is a big mistake. Never change and test anything in multiples, change and test one thing at a time.
    The idea of taking that first alignment made me almost start to 'snap shoot', I didn't realize that until I got into the second target and had some shop time when I measured & repaired the first target and reflected on this bad performance.
    You can see the 'warmer spot' top left...I try to keep track there of how a dry or wet patched barrel shoots in and how many shots it takes.



    I figured that a second 'go-round' might get me to settle down and get'er done right, I dropped the ball again here...so, at the end of the day I have learned little to nothing about what 'weight & COAL/fdb sorted ammo does...I did frustrate myself in the end realizing I broke the testing rules big time.



    Well...finding no satisfaction in this practice & testing session, I decided to just finish off the day blasting my frustrations away...just getting some good trigger time and to heck with the testing, I brought out a box of each of these ammos and without cleaning the barrel between brands, I just made a lot of noise...



    Only thing that went right today was that I packed up with a big smile on my face and I have to think..."at least that was a win!"

    I'll try this weight sort idea again on another day, we have rains on us for a couple days now so I'll have the time to get properly organized for a properly done test of 'one thing changed' at a time.
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  19. #59
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    If your samole is not a fluke, that weight spread is pretty good for ordinary ammo. On par with CCI SV and some lots of MiniMags that I weighed. As good as the old Winchester T-22 "target" ammo, and slightly better than the lot Federal 711 I had to weigh.

    My project wasn't intended for public consumption; I wish I'd kept better track of my records. I can find notes on one lot of 367 CCI Blazer that gave me 17 "culls" that were wildly light, the rest were +/- 0.25 grains. Oddly the lot gave a "skewed" distribution, with the largest group weighing 50.9 grains, and none any heavier.

    Another lot of 499 of the UMC "yellow box" club ammo ran +/- 0.5 grains.

    For the others above I have only short summaries noting extreme spreads, and some boxes and medicine bottles half full of sorted rounds that I didn't shoot.

    Trouble with all this measuring and sorting is that you often wind up selecting 50% or less of a lot, and relegating the rest to "noisemaker" ammo. Still, it does teach us something, and makes us understand why Eley Tenex is $18 a box. Process control that rigorous is expensive.
    Cognitive Dissident

  20. #60
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    uscra112... (one lot of 367 CCI Blazer that gave me 17 "culls" that were wildly light, the rest were +/- 0.25 grains)

    ? ... Where do you think the weight variance is? Is it the little 40 grain pills? Could be an aggregate of all the ingredients in the .22lr but it looks to me like the slug.

    (Trouble with all this measuring and sorting is that you often wind up selecting 50% or less of a lot, and relegating the rest to "noisemaker" ammo. Still, it does teach us something, and makes us understand why Eley Tenex is $18 a box. Process control that rigorous is expensive. )

    Agreed, but the far ends, the extremes of the sorting I usually use as warmers, when I wet swab a barrel I usually use 10 warmers as it seems to take a few more than the usual 5 from a dry patching to shoot in the barrel but have noticed that at times it takes more than ten. Seems like that applies if I use a brush in the bore. When I change from the copper washed to waxed lead slugs I'll usually run some of Butche's Bore Shine instead of the Hoppes to get any Cu. out of there.
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check