New to using a 'PEEP & GLOBE' at 50 yards...

[OS OK]

Thanks tazman...I appreciate your input. I can try that, it's sorta reverse of what I am doing (aligning concentric circles from the outside in towards the spot)...if I understand, I'll read it again before I go out again.

This video sorta explains what I was talking about by having the cheek weld change subtly & create a parrallax...
These shooters seem to have a different view with their hi-tec gear...as we see from the iris to the inside of the globe assembly at the muzzle...but...it's this very slight movement I was trying to explain.
Parallax errors and second ring
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI0kFTDPr8w

[tazman]

The method I expressed makes the cheek weld very important. You must be looking through the center of the peep. After that is confirmed, everything else is supposed to become automatic.by focusing on the target.
The video you posted covers the same thing in different terms. Of course, they are using much different rear sight than the simple iris you are using.
That extra ring he puts on the tube, helps you center your eye in the peep, making any errors smaller on the back end.
You can accomplish the same thing by looking through the smallest iris hole that gives you a clear view. The smaller the hole, the smaller the possible error. Everyone's eyes are different, so the smallest hole that works for one person may well be different for another as you found out.
Also, different lighting will make a difference in how this works as to size. Smaller holes allow less light through and can be harder to see things.
It turns out my eyes work poorly with peep sights these days. Didn't used to be that way. Things change as you get older and don't always work as well.
Why I am using scopes now.

The peep sights on battle rifles are larger than what you are using because of the varied light conditions expected during battle. Early morning and late evening make larger holes necessary in order to see well enough for use. The military figures that 4 MOA is adequate accuracy for hunting people since a 16 inch group at 400 yards will usually insure a hit somewhere on the body of your target. If you consistently center your eye through the rear peep, much better accuracy can be accomplished.
The larger the hole in the peep, the larger the possible error. Looking through the center of the peep consistently, can decrease the error and give you the same accuracy as a smaller peep hole. Your cheek weld becomes important here so your eye doesn't move around.

Once you get your cheek weld set and are looking through the center of the peep, you only need to focus on the target. The front sight should automatically center on the target.
You set up a shot a piece at a time. Stable platform, pressure against the shoulder, hand placement, adjustment of the rest for proper aiming, cheek weld, eye looking through the center of the peep, find the target through the front globe and focus on the target. The target should automatically center in the front globe as you focus on the target. Since you are looking through the center of the peep, you don't need to think about that part any more.
After that it is trigger pull while you hold.
Get as much stuff to think about out of the process as you can. Once you set up any part of the shot, you don't have to go back and check it over and over. Takes too much time and removes your focus from where it needs to be.
Once the shot is set up, all you have to do is focus on the target, hold, and pull the trigger.

[uscra112]

Has anybody mentioned stock fit? Try this: Close your eyes, get settled into your shooting position, with all muscles as relaxed as possible. Open your eyes. Are you looking through your sight? If not, you're using muscular tension to position your head, and that's almost impossible to do exactly the same every time.

[tazman]

Has anybody mentioned stock fit? Try this: Close your eyes, get settled into your shooting position, with all muscles as relaxed as possible. Open your eyes. Are you looking through your sight? If not, you're using muscular tension to position your head, and that's almost impossible to do exactly the same every time.

Good point and one I should have thought to mention. Very important.
As you tire, you will not be able to repeat a muscle control exactly the same, over and over. Get as many muscles out of the shot as you can.
Another part of getting as much stuff out of the final shot process as you can.

[uscra112]

If you study the old Schuetzen game, you'll see ornate buttstocks on the custom rifles. Always created to fit the owner, and rarely do they fit anyone else. Today you see complicated adjustable stocks on free rifles that do the same thing.

[dverna]

Listen to Taz and uscra....

Now, IMO shooting off a rest minimizes the impact of stock fit. What is important is to "finish the shot". I see folks who lift their heads just a wee bit as soon as the trigger is pulled.

When I was shooting smallbore decades ago, I do not recall looking at the rear peep sight...I looked "through" it. IIRC I only focused on the front sight. One last hint...keep both eyes open...I cannot explain it but it seems to work...at least it is worth a try.

[OS OK]

Thank you Gentlemen...thank you one and all!
I appreciate the time you spend here keeping track of my progress and your efforts to explain in detail all the 'how to's' ...

However...somewhere in this past thread, I got the notion that I was not to focus on the spot, that the eye would automatically do that for me, what I should do is make those black & white circles (the rings of light and dark I see) 'get and stay concentric'.
I am relieved that I can actually focus on the spot, my eye and I have been battling over this issue...my eye constantly wanting to see that spot clearly & me trying to make the eye focus only on the front globe & pay attention to it's relationship to the iris (the concentricity of it's alignment & my POA to the spot)
This has been a battle but when I've done it correctly, I noticed that the spot would 'pop'(meaning the entire alignment is perfect)...what I mean by that is that it becomes darker & in clear focus even though I 'think' I am focusing on that front globe. (this is a mind-bender for'Ya...I couldn't understand how this was happening unless I am actually focusing on the spot?)
I have tried to look all around the edge of the globe and stay focused as I am adjusting so that 'fuzzy looking' spot was in the center. For me it has been looking at the thickness of the outer white ring and making certain it is equal all around...

These explanations above are so consice and clear...I don't know how I can screw things up again...this is the plan for the next day of clear skies!

In the meantime, I can practice this alignment with the eyes closed on set-up, hands in their places, buttstock embraced, cheek on the riser & muscles relaxed...then open the eyes and see where I am. I can't think of a better way for my muscle memory to train itself than this exercise!
I suspect this new riser I have installed is partly the problem in my cheek rest repeating.
See how it's a fraction of an inch higher than the carpenters pencil I had tapped to the comb?



I think this is a little part of it and I can get this adjusted in the shop as I practice settling in on the rifle (I call that embracing the rifle).
While it's raining, I can put a tiny spot on the garage door and set the rifle up in the far end of the shop...I can get all this 'eyes-closed alignment' done as I await clear weather.

I sincerely hope that I am tracking you fellas this time...please correct me if I am still a skewed!

[dverna]

When I was shooting CAS, I used a tang sight with the aperture removed so it became a ghost sight for quick target acquisition. I am not recommending that. But share it to complete the picture....so to speak. I used the normal front sight, but in order to force myself to focus on it, I had shooting passes made that had their focus at 30” instead of normal distance focus.

Everyone’s eyes are different. But in my case, those glasses riveted my eye quickly onto the sharply focused front sight. This was more for speed than accuracy

But if you are struggling with focusing on the front sight, try a cheap pair of reading glasses when shooting for groups. The target will be blurred but that does not matter. There is a balance betweeen the rear peep size and front globe that will get you centered. Of course, this would not be much help in the field.

BTW, I know a top trapshooter who has his shooting glasses made this way. Common belief is to focus on the bird not the bead....but this guy has the front bead in sharp focus.

[303Guy]

Listen to Taz and uscra....

Now, IMO shooting off a rest minimizes the impact of stock fit. What is important is to "finish the shot". I see folks who lift their heads just a wee bit as soon as the trigger is pulled.

When I was shooting smallbore decades ago, I do not recall looking at the rear peep sight...I looked "through" it. IIRC I only focused on the front sight. One last hint...keep both eyes open...I cannot explain it but it seems to work...at least it is worth a try.

I've tried both eyes open but just cannot do it. I guess it's how one starts out one's shooting life and I've been doing it with one eye shut for almost as long as I've been alive. Old habits I guess. They say that both eyes open gives full view of what's going on around. I'll agree with this. Once upon a time I was aiming at and about to shoot an antelope when surprise surprise - this appears in the scope! My 'guide' decided for some reason to leave his position behind me and go forward into my line of sight as I'm about to shoot! That could have ended badly.

Any way, I'm off to the range to test this new Eley ammo selection I got the other day. I'll be testing them in four rifles.

An interesting thing in that video - the target design. I came with that concept and have printed out a range of variations to see which works best for me. Only I don't have my aperture sight mounted yet.

[OS OK]

I don't have any trouble focusing since the Cataract Surgery a few years back. I bought the upgraded lens they said would allow me to focus far and near and it's been the best eye I ever had.
I can see that spot clear & bright, can see the front globe perfectly and can read the back of a pill bottle in that small script only a 5'th grader could see...so, for an old'fat'guy with only one good eye, I have to say it's friggin 'Bionic!'
Praise God for good eye surgeons.

[303Guy]

Well, I'm back from the range. I can say I think I've found some good ammo and I can also say my eyes got tired very quickly. Still analyzing and documenting the results. I did get one or two reasonable groups. My old 512 with its scope is back to shooting well again. My Toz17-1 amazed me! I might take off the scope and fit the aperture to that rifle instead. Picture of target to come after photoshopping it - I mean scanning it.

The significance of todays shooting is confirmation that my eyes are a problem (but not the only problem). Hopefully the aperture sight will solve the eye issue.

Here are some targets. This one is my experimenting with the depth of the rear sight notch. The first one is with the notch square and the second with the notch quite shallow. Interesting how the group shifts to the left and tightens up. Then back to the right with a little deeper notch. It just illustrates what sights and lighting can do.



Maybe I should pay the eye specialist a visit. After a while I could not see through the scope properly anymore. With the disc and ring target I was seeing multiple rings. I changed target style and was back on. So in my case, I have to consider my eyes.

[OS OK]

That's pretty exciting to watch them all banging into one ragged hole.
I suggest you do take a trip to the Eye Dr. , call ahead, explain to the Dr. what your trying to do...maybe even take your rifle along so the Dr. can consider his corrections for the focal length(s) you need to see best?... for me, it would be devastating to loose the ability to shoot well.

Nice work 303guy...

[tazman]

Now you are making me wonder if I need to upgrade my eyeballs.

[OS OK]

Gloomy Day... Overcast, dim light & chilly, normally I would hesitate getting out and practicing. BUT...I had to try that idea of 'closing the eyes & embracing the rifle' and then 'opening the eyes and seeing what I was seeing'. Would it be looking straight through the peep?
So I set a table up outside the shop at 15 yards...



It appeared to be working, I mean I was seeing straight down the pipe...so I get 5 rounds of the tenex out and do the same thing and then firing those rounds to see what would happen if...'if I focus on the spot and allow my eye to align the rest of the rings automatically'. Remember, I've been shooting 'bass-ackerds' to this and not focusing on the spot.
These are the warmers, I'd normally be taking out at the 50 yd. line so the first did start out low.



The thing that concerns me is being able to get the same amount of 'cheek fat' caught up between my cheek bone and the riser...this can vary according to which way my face comes into contact with the riser.
If I come in sideways and make face contact just under the cheek bone and then press into the riser... I seem to catch up the minimal amount of face fat.
If I come in too high and make contact straight down, I catch up more face fat and the position I see through the peep changes also.
You can see the face fat here..this seems to be a little problematic repeating the same each time. Perhaps consciously thinking about exactly how I place my face on the riser will work this out some? I don't know without having several practice session to get this worked out...



So, next I went back to the 50 yd. line to see what I could do with this idea?
I repaired the target from the other day using some 2" white spots that are stickers...they are a little larger than the milk jug caps I'm using to make the spots.
Anyway...here's today's ramblings...I think what I'm seeing is a 'cheek fat problem'? Can't say just yet! hahaaa...



That first spot top left had me going for a minute, thinking I have this problem licked!
But...I started worrying about the cheek weld again, thinking too much about that I guess and got some bad groups after that...

[tazman]

I can't help with the "cheek fat" issue. I have no real experience or reference for it.
As to the groups, It appears the new technique is at least the equal and probably superior to what you were doing before. And to have it do so on the first try is very good as well.
I expect the new technique feels more natural for you. Not as much to think about during the shot. It should allow you to relax more.

[OS OK]

I can't help with the "cheek fat" issue. I have no real experience or reference for it.
As to the groups, It appears the new technique is at least the equal and probably superior to what you were doing before. And to have it do so on the first try is very good as well.
I expect the new technique feels more natural for you. Not as much to think about during the shot. It should allow you to relax more.

Maybe I'm explaining it wrong . . . it's like having a different thicknesses of a pad over the cheek riser....either on top of the riser or on my side of it next to my face.
That's the best explanation I can make taz.

I believe this will work out well in couple sessions...just waiting for a couple sunny warm days!

[tazman]

I understand you dilemma about the cheek fat issue. I am trying to say I never have had a reason to consider it before.
I don't currently use a peep sight, and have never seriously used one on a firearm, so I have no experience to draw on.
I don't want to speculate and cause a problem due to my lack of knowledge.

[OS OK]

hahaa...tazman...we have been speculating for the last 25 pages, I think it's getting somewhere now (knock on wood) so don't stop...
"every confused thought has a pearl of wisdom in there somewhere!"

[tazman]

Okay, here goes. I think you will need to standardize how you approach the stock with your cheek. If you don't, that sight picture and the cheek weld will never become consistent.
Next time you go to the range, try approaching the stock from each direction with your eyes shut, then open your shooting eye and see which approach gives you the best, most centered view through the peep. If you can consistently get your eye centered in the rear peep, you will have conquered one of the basic elements of this style of shooting. Once you find the approach that centers your eye in the peep, stick with it and make it part of you.

[OS OK]

...tazman... I plan to do just what you suggest, work out a method that sets the cheek rest the same each time.
Also...part of the struggle has been having too much of the outer 'white' ring showing from where I see the whole thing, the whole sight picture lined up on target.



This front globe has been about perfect for the inner hole that centers up the 4" spot but the overall diameter of this globe is a little too small...it makes me dial the iris down very small to make that outer white ring more manageable...too much width in that outer white ring showing makes it easier to be 'off center' in the peep, I end up looking at this ring and then checking the spot over and over & pushing my breath window. I need to concentrate on the 'entire sight picture' all at once instead of examining the various parts of it individually....I hope that makes sense?
Also if this globe was a larger OD, I could leave the iris more open allowing more light & clarity...dialing down the iris for that globe pictured above makes a gloomy overcast day really hard to shoot as that 'lint look' starts to interfere.

Good ole' HARRY TOBIN & I sat on the phone last week talking about this as I was measuring the globe and Harry came up with the idea of making custom size globes on his 3-D printer. He made a couple and was happy with how they turned out so he had me send him one of my globes so he could really dial the printer in exact.
From what Harry says, I'm getting some globes that have finer cross bars in them with the desirable characteristics of several globes worked into one.
Then he made a variety of globes based on 3 different OD's with a combination of 3 different ID's, I think he said 10 of each...so that's about 90 globes coming in this week.
I can use a drill index to adjust the ID's if needed but from what he's done I don't expect that'll be necessary.

I hope the smallest of the ID's will work as well with the 2" spots as the one above works with the 4" spots....smaller spots ='s more spots on the paper and a little more practice each day!
So...that's where we stand...today is a rainy day but Tu. - Thurs. look to be clear with highs in the 50's so I'll be back at-it soon...